The Greenhand Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Out of curiosity, how many of you arguing that the Baratheons are the rightful heirs to the 7 Kingdoms would also argue that Roose Ramsey is the rightful heir of the North? The man did kill Robb, like Robert killed Rhaegar, and the Stark kids are scattered to the winds, much as the Targaryan kids were.Robert killed Rhaegar because he had to. He didn't kill him in a wedding, he killed him in a war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Robert was actually a usurper, who endorsed the murders of Aegon and Rhaenys to secure his hold on the throne and based his legal claim on his Targaryen descent. Dany is the rightful Queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TepidHands Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Maester Aemon tells Sam: "Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it... their father's mother...she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope... perhaps I wanted to... we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that... light without heat... an empty glamor... the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam. Daenerys is our hope. Tell them that at the Citadel. Make them listen. They must send her a maester. Daenerys must be counseled, taught, protected. For all the years I've lingered, waiting, watching, and now that the day has dawned I am too old. I am dying, Sam." Damn dust in this room. I love Maester Aemon. *sniffle* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Out of curiosity, how many of you arguing that the Baratheons are the rightful heirs to the 7 Kingdoms would also argue that Roose Ramsey is the rightful heir of the North? The man did kill Robb, like Robert killed Rhaegar, and the Stark kids are scattered to the winds, much as the Targaryan kids were.Well, the Boltons for the time are. If the Starks want Winterfell and the North back, they're going to have to fight for it. If the Targaryens want the throne back, they're going to have to fight for it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis 4 Prez Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Out of curiosity, how many of you arguing that the Baratheons are the rightful heirs to the 7 Kingdoms would also argue that Roose Ramsey is the rightful heir of the North? The man did kill Robb, like Robert killed Rhaegar, and the Stark kids are scattered to the winds, much as the Targaryan kids were.Legally I would agree with you, but the argument could be made against becuase A) Tommen is not the legitimate King thus his proclamations are invalid and B- Roose and Walder broke guest right by killing Robb thus gaining the North through treacherous means. Guest right is sacred by the Old Gods and the New so it could possibly not be afforded the same protection as right of conquest. But as someone else said a claim is a claim. Only the claimant can give it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion Chainbreaker Posted July 11, 2013 Author Share Posted July 11, 2013 I hate to break it to you Targaryen fans, but on account of Aerys being a horrid ruler, action was take and Robert kicked some Targ ass, Robert became King, most of Westerosi Houses reconciled to the fact that the Targs weren't rulers of Westeros anymore.It's the people on these forums who have a hard time believing that tossing the Targs out was fully just.Tossing Aerys may have been just, but there's a reason the right of primogenitor forms lasting, stable societies: A bad king is almost always better than a civil war. Aerys was certainly a terrible king, and Robert's rebellion was relatively bloodless (the only atrocity we've read about is the Sack of KL, much less brutal than the WO5K.)There's a reason Tywin, Ned, and Jon all stepped aside and gave the Iron Throne to Robert: his Targaryan grandmother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Out of curiosity, how many of you arguing that the Baratheons are the rightful heirs to the 7 Kingdoms would also argue that Roose Ramsey is the rightful heir of the North? The man did kill Robb, like Robert killed Rhaegar, and the Stark kids are scattered to the winds, much as the Targaryan kids were.If he manages to keep the North and not get himself and Ramsay killed - then sure, he is the rightful ruler. Considering how most of the North is plotting to get Starks back, this is very unlikely to happen.If Tommen is the rightful king,Stannis is his heir, not Myrcella.Um...no. By traditional rules of primogeniture (not Targaryen one), all offspring, daughters included, takes place before any brothers. If ADWD, for example, both Alys Karstark and Jon Snow say something in line with: A daughter comes before an uncle by all laws I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxspecific Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Tossing Aerys may have been just, but there's a reason the right of primogenitor forms lasting, stable societies: A bad king is almost always better than a civil war. Aerys was certainly a terrible king, and Robert's rebellion was relatively bloodless (the only atrocity we've read about is the Sack of KL, much less brutal than the WO5K.)There's a reason Tywin, Ned, and Jon all stepped aside and gave the Iron Throne to Robert: his Targaryan grandmother.*Facedesk*Those guys fucking hated the Targaryens by then why the heck would they honour the few drops of Targ blood in Robert's veins? Ned supported Robert because their Houses were to be joined through marriage and because he wanted to depose Aerys, Jon supported Robert for the same reason, and Tywin supported him in the end because he wanted to be on the winning side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 There's a reason Tywin, Ned, and Jon all stepped aside and gave the Iron Throne to Robert: his Targaryan grandmother.I'm thinking they used his blood claim in order to bright the people who sided with Aerys back into the fold more bloodlessly. If they gave a damn about rightful Targaryen claimants, they would have sought out Viserys. But they didn't.When Robert got coronated, the throne became Baratheon. If it was all about his grandmother, he might as well have changed his last name to Targaryen. But it didn't matter that much, since he won with his warhammer not his blood. His future heirs would inherit because of his claim, not Rhaelle's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion Chainbreaker Posted July 11, 2013 Author Share Posted July 11, 2013 Legally I would agree with you, but the argument could be made against becuase A) Tommen is not the legitimate King thus his proclamations are invalid and B- Roose and Walder broke guest right by killing Robb thus gaining the North through treacherous means. Guest right is sacred by the Old Gods and the New so it could possibly not be afforded the same protection as right of conquest. But as someone else said a claim is a claim. Only the claimant can give it up."Through treacherous means" has nothing to do with how Jaime earned his nickname? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 There's a reason Tywin, Ned, and Jon all stepped aside and gave the Iron Throne to Robert: his Targaryan grandmother.So you think everyone hailed Robert as king not because he won the war, but because of his Targ grandmother? Despite the fact that he either killed or sanctioned killing people with much better claims?Say, if rebels agreed to install e.g. Ned instead of Robert as king, what do you think would have happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonin Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Robert Baratheon seized the Iron Throne by force of arms. While Robert was a usurper (could argue right of rebellion) he did establish the Baratheon dynasty (might be short lived) - there have been many RL dynasties established by a usurper.If none of Robert's children are legitimate - then Stannis is the heir to the Baratheon dynasty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Greenhand Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Robert was actually a usurper, who endorsed the murders of Aegon and Rhaenys to secure his hold on the throne and based his legal claim on his Targaryen descent.Dany is the rightful Queen.Robert wasn't a usurper as he believed in Targaryen Madness. Moreover, he let Dany and Viserys live until Viserys tried to get an army, khalasar. In addition, Robert was carrying Targaryen blood in his veins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxspecific Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Saying Ned (hates Targs loves Robert) and Jon (hates Targs loves Robert) supported Robert to become King was because of his grandmother is so freaking stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion Chainbreaker Posted July 11, 2013 Author Share Posted July 11, 2013 Saying Ned (hates Targs loves Robert) and Jon (hates Targs loves Robert) supported Robert to become King was because of his grandmother is so freaking stupid.Saying that Tywin (whose forces controlled the capital) gave up any claim to the throne after his own son deposed the old king and sat upon the Iron Throne because of ...? What? What reason would Tywin have possibly given up the Iron Throne for other than that Robert had the best claim through his Targaryan blood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikachu101 Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Robert was actually a usurper, who endorsed the murders of Aegon and Rhaenys to secure his hold on the throne and based his legal claim on his Targaryen descent. [quote name='theguyfromtheVale' timestamp='1373550528' post='4703537'They have a claim, they just don't rule right now. You don't lose a claim unless you give up on it yourself.Nope, Dany pretty much has no claim to the throne whatsoever. If she wants it she's going to have to conquer Westeros like Aegon and his sisters. Robert was actually a usurper, who endorsed the murders of Aegon and Rhaenys to secure his hold on the throne and based his legal claim on his Targaryen descent. Dany is the rightful Queen.The day people start flocking to Dany is the day Dany becomes the rightful queen. For now the Starks, Greyjoys, Tommen and Stannis are the rightful rulers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis 4 Prez Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 "Through treacherous means" has nothing to do with how Jaime earned his nickname?That's irrelevant. Jaime didn't claim rhe IT and Robert didn't order him to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Saying that Tywin (whose forces controlled the capital) gave up any claim to the throne after his own son deposed the old king and sat upon the Iron Throne because of ...? What? What reason would Tywin have possibly given up the Iron Throne for other than that Robert had the best claim through his Targaryan blood?Because if Tywin procliamed himself king, he would be suddenly fighting a war against both Targ loyalist and victorious rebel army - and this is a war he would inevitably lose. If Tywin cared so much about rightful Targaryen heir, he wouln't have killed Aegon and Rhaenys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
three-eyed monkey Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 If you accept that Robert's Rebellion ended the Targaryen dynasty and began the line of Baratheon kings, something that the lords of Westeros did accept for 15+ years, then Stannis is the rightful king as Tommen is not Robert's issue. This would make Shireen his only heir.If you believe that Tommen is Robert's child, as many of the lords seem to be happy to accept, then Tommen and Myrcella are the only ones left in the line as Stannis would be attainted. (Of course, we the readers know this is not true.)Out of curiosity, how many of you arguing that the Baratheons are the rightful heirs to the 7 Kingdoms would also argue that Roose Ramsey is the rightful heir of the North? The man did kill Robb, like Robert killed Rhaegar, and the Stark kids are scattered to the winds, much as the Targaryan kids were.Roose Bolton is the Warden of the North and Ramsay Bolton is the Lord of Winterfell because the IT says so. The difference is that the northern lords don't agree and are plotting to remove the Boltons and perhaps even secede from the 7K. But the Boltons hold their titles until that happens. It has nothing to do with our feelings towards the Starks or Targs or whomever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikachu101 Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 They have a claim, they just don't rule right now. You don't lose a claim unless you give up on it yourself.Nope, Dany pretty much has no claim to the throne whatsoever. If she wants it she's going to have to conquer Westeros like Aegon and his sisters. Robert was actually a usurper, who endorsed the murders of Aegon and Rhaenys to secure his hold on the throne and based his legal claim on his Targaryen descent. Dany is the rightful Queen.The day people start flocking to Dany is the day Dany becomes the rightful queen. For now the Starks, Greyjoys, Tommen and Stannis are the rightful rulers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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