The Rightful Heir to the Iron Throne

[Themannis]

Stannis Stannis Stannis

[Maegor the Cuddly]

I'd agree that Aerys' actions seriously weakened the legitimacy of the Targaryens in the eyes of many Westerosi. That's why I made the proviso that any Targaryen claim is now conditioned on a claimant that has not inherited the Targaryen madness. I think tolerance for that particular trait has been exhausted in regards to kingship. I also agree that we're clearly in a power vacuum at the moment in terms of legitimacy, but if we're talking about who has the most legitimacy (not necessarily who is legitimate), I would argue it still has to be a Targaryen.

I would agree. Albeit, they still don't have a lot, despite having the most. :P

[mrunderhill]

1. OK. One old man. Claiming Aerys of all people was a good king. It still does not show general sentiment that the Targs are loved. People are bitching the war. An old man claims Aerys was better. It reads less pro-Targ and more anti-these current assholes. Admittedly, this could be used by Aegon and Dany, but generally supports Jorah's take on the smallfolk since the whole topic is how much these people suck.

2. This is weak. Brienne is a noble woman. She was not summing up how the smallfolk felt. She was rejecting the idea that Stannis was the rightful king. The small folk's feelings play nothing into her statement. She only says how kings don't care about them as the gods don't care about men. Nothing her conversation with Cat is about how the smallfolk feel about the politics of the realm and is Cat talking her down from a suicide mission.

3. Two things about Tywin. First of all, he is not an usurper. He is the rightful heir of the Westerlands. Second, he made things great for House Lannister. That's different from the Westerlands in general. He ruled by fear and ruthlessness. That might make you great, but it's not going to make you loved.

1. I gave just one example from chapter I had reread. The books are actually full of little comments from people about their love of Targaryens.

2. Brienne maybe a noble woman, but she was rejecting the idea that even Robert was the rightful king. For her it was Aerys.

3. That's my point making life great for people does not necessarily make you loved.

The Targaryens were viewed as the rightful rulers and almost godlike by a lot of people in Westeros. In their minds they have always been the rightful kings.

[Morienthar]

1. I gave just one example from chapter I had reread. The books are actually full of little comments from people about their love of Targaryens.

2. Brienne maybe a noble woman, but she was rejecting the idea that even Robert was the rightful king. For her it was Aerys.

1.Actually that's the only one I've read in the entire series and even that I think is because of nostalgia due to the war,the Old man probably never even saw a Targ King.

2.Brienne was 4-5 when Aerys died her King was Bob and then Renly.

[mrunderhill]

1.Actually that's the only one I've read in the entire series and even that I think is because of nostalgia due to the war,the Old man probably never even saw a Targ King.

From the common folk I doubt it. From the nobility definitely not.

2.Brienne was 4-5 when Aerys died her King was Bob and then Renly.

Does not change her opinion of of countless people like her.

[boojam]

More than a hundred replies and one can see why in our parallel universe enlightened cultures got rid of Monarchies.

(The only ones left are tourist attractions.)

[mrunderhill]

More than a hundred replies and one can see why in our parallel universe enlightened cultures got rid of Monarchies.

(The only ones left are tourist attractions.)

Yes and our enlightened universe has had a lasting peace, a prospering economy and our leaders are universally loved.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

Even Robert questioned his own legitimacy. He was glad when Aegon's and Rhaenys's corpses were presented to him, and he wanted to murder Viserys and Dany. Both these events caused falling outs between Ned and Robert because they were cruel, dishonorable acts. The only benefit Robert could derive from the killing of 2 children and trying to kill 2 more was that it removed everyone with a better (Targ) claim than himself.

[boojam]

Yes and our enlightened universe has had a lasting peace, a prospering economy and our leaders are universally loved.

I know what you mean, but maybe we are headed for that all being over, plus hell, I would rather be plain poor than a surf (which was not far from being a slave).

Feudalism was a crappy way to live.

We still have some portions of some present societies who want to go back to that with unpleasant and deadly results for the general populace.

[Frozentree]

Even Robert questioned his own legitimacy. He was glad when Aegon's and Rhaenys's corpses were presented to him, and he wanted to murder Viserys and Dany. Both these events caused falling outs between Ned and Robert because they were cruel, dishonorable acts. The only benefit Robert could derive from the killing of 2 children and trying to kill 2 more was that it removed everyone with a better (Targ) claim than himself.

Actually, it was not about "claim", he was worried about them returning to reclaim the throne, he knew there are still Taragryen loyalists who would flock to them. The "lawful" claim does not matter, what matters is that they were direct threat

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

Actually, it was not about "claim", he was worried about them returning to reclaim the throne, he knew there are still Taragryen loyalists who would flock to them. The "lawful" claim does not matter, what matters is that they were direct threat

No sh*t they were a "direct threat" to "REclaim the throne," they had a better claim!

[Frozentree]

No sh*t they were a "direct threat" to "REclaim the throne," they had a better claim!

Nobody cared. If instead of Targaryens, say, Jon Connington wanted to return and take the throne and had some supporters for some reason, Robert would want him dead. Having a "better claim" played no role. Wanting to take (or re-take, the effect is the same) the throne and having supporters (who made it impossible to ignore them) played role.

[The guy from the Vale]

How do you gather supporters, then, unless you have a claim? You have to remember that supporting candidates without a claim sets a dangerous precedent for his follower: He'll have to worry about being usurped by one of his own bannermen in turn.

[Knight Of Winter]

How do you gather supporters, then, unless you have a claim? You have to remember that supporting candidates without a claim sets a dangerous precedent for his follower: He'll have to worry about being usurped by one of his own bannermen in turn.

By being charming and charismatic. By having jerks/weaklings as contenders for throne. By presenting yourself as better solution for the king. It worked well for Robert, Renly and Daemon Blackfyre (who started rumors about Dearon not being king's son just to justify his pretensions), after all.

Generally, you're on the right track, though. Most of the times, people will by default support current king or heir apparent - and this very people's support makes some king rightful. As Machiavelli noted, tradition is a force onto itself.

[boojam]

By being charming and charismatic. By having jerks/weaklings as contenders for throne. By presenting yourself as better solution for the king. It worked well for Robert, Renly and Daemon Blackfyre (who started rumors about Dearon not being king's son just to justify his pretensions), after all.

Generally, you're on the right track, though. Most of the times, people will by default support current king or heir apparent - and this very people's support makes some king rightful. As Machiavelli noted, tradition is a force onto itself.

Tho in the Roman Empire , even tho there was Primogeniture (if one could call it that) if you proved your self to be a poor emperor the military could dispose (usually a whack!) , but good strong Emperors had no trouble such as the Nerva-Antonine dynasty which included Trajan and Hadrian (nobody has ever make a movie about them!).

[E-Ro]

"the throne by rights passes to lord Stannis, the elder of Roberts two brothers." Lord petyr stroked his pointed beard as he considered the matter. "So it would seem. Unless..." "unless, my lord? There is no seeming to this. Stannis is the heir. Nothing can change that."

Yeah, its stannis. Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves, or has issues with the man.

ETA: does this quote pretty much end the thread now? There is no seeming to this, STANNIS IS THE HEIR.

[Stannis 4 Prez]

Yeah, its stannis. Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves, or has issues with the man

ETA: does this quote pretty much end the thread now? There is no seeming to this, STANNIS IS THE HEIR.

Exactly. Plus why would his blood be magical if he wasn't the king?

[aceluby]

Yeah, its stannis. Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves, or has issues with the man.

ETA: does this quote pretty much end the thread now? There is no seeming to this, STANNIS IS THE HEIR.

Exactly. Plus why would his blood be magical if he wasn't the king?

Using that logic Edric is the rightful king too...

If Stannis is the 'rightful heir', the same arguments can be used for Dany being the 'rightful heir', and even more so since her family sat the throne before the Baratheon's.

[mrunderhill]

By being charming and charismatic. By having jerks/weaklings as contenders for throne. By presenting yourself as better solution for the king. It worked well for Robert, Renly and Daemon Blackfyre (who started rumors about Dearon not being king's son just to justify his pretensions), after all.

Generally, you're on the right track, though. Most of the times, people will by default support current king or heir apparent - and this very people's support makes some king rightful. As Machiavelli noted, tradition is a force onto itself.

Robert never set out to be king, never asked for it. It's the Targaryens who brought war to his door for no reason. The son abducted his betrothed and then the father called for his head.

Daemon did not start the rumours either, most likely Aegon IV did. Daemon did not make up claims to be king either, people were already saying he was the rightful king heir when he was just 12 and his father was still alive.

Renly is the only real usurper out of the bunch with no good reason.

I agree that people generally tend to like tradition, they don't like change and like things to at least appear 'legal'.

[UVA]

Most of the times, people will by default support current king or heir apparent - and this very people's support makes some king rightful. As Machiavelli noted, tradition is a force onto itself.

I very much agree with this, and it is consistent with how Martin uses the concept of 'rightful' in the series.