Of the 3 (or 4?) remaining Starks.... Who would you give Winterfell to?

[Lady Howell]

Sansa or Bran.

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

Brilliant! This has turned into a Sansa thread....like every other thread that mentions her. -_-

Who would I like to inherit Winterfell? If Rickon did not exist, I'd say Arya. She is capable of becoming a good ruler. She is charismatic, always manages to take the lead in any group she's with, so we can say she'll be able to gather people around her. Not to mention that Nymeria manages to gather a large host of wolves, which I think is foreshadowing of Arya herself managing to gather allies for the Starks once she comes back. She actually knows how the smallfolk live and tended to hang out with them even in Winterfell, so she'll be able to understand what they want. She is very resourceful and manipulative so that will help as well. She, by her own admission, is good at economics and running a household. And as for "she only wants revenge", that's ridiculous. She does want revenge, yes, but as she proved with Sandor, she is willing to put that aside if not perusing vengeance can lead to something else that she wants (like going home to her family).

However, I don't think she'll ever be a ruler. She wants to be powerful enough to control her destiny and choices, but that does not mean she wants to be a ruler. I think she just wants to be with her family in Winterfell and to have her agency. And I don't think it's fair to exclude Rickon just because we love other characters more. The only realistic way Rickon won't inherit Winterfell is if he dies and I don't want any more Starks dead, so All Hail Rickon, the King in the North!

Also Rickon is feral? What? Have you people ever met a three year old? Some of them are wild blizzards. Sheesh. He's probably going to turn out perfectly normal. Rickon is young and has tons of potential.

[Lord Reaver]

Who would I like to inherit Winterfell? If Rickon did not exist, I'd say Arya. She is capable of becoming a good ruler.

Yes, the pre-pubescent serial killer who puts people on her "death list" with zero evidence, who up and kills people for no apparent reason whatsoever. That would surely make a good ruler. Holy crap, can you say a reign of terror and blood ?

[Lady Howell]

Yes, the pre-pubescent serial killer who puts people on her "death list" with zero evidence, who up and kills people for no apparent reason whatsoever. That would surely make a good ruler. Holy crap, can you say a reign of terror and blood ?

Arya isn't a serial killer. There are entire essays out there on how she isn't. Disturbed? Yes, to a high degree. Un-salvageable as a human being? No. That's like saying child soldiers can't be rehabilitated. Arya could turn out a good, sane person who can rule a holdfast. She just needs someone, or perhaps herself, to talk her out of becoming an assassin. Once she drops the whole "death list" thing, she'll be on the right track to recovery from her many traumas.

[Dicer]

Have you even read my post? I also said that even with the stewards and assistants Sansa is still de facto Lady of the Eyrie and she does require to do duties that befit that title. Plus this is what she was raised to do all her life. Being Lady of a Castle was something she was trained to be. So yes Sansa does knows what it takes to be a Lady of a Castle and has decent concept of ruling.

You are repeating the same thing again and you still have not answered the question: Where in the text does it say that Sansa is in charge of running the entire castle?

Has she demonstrated this decent concept of ruling a city in any way?

If you think that Sansa came under Littlefinger's tutelage as a blanco page then I have to disappoint you. Most of things she was indirectly learned by Cersei, Margaery, Lady Olenna and to some degree Sandor. Believe it or not most of the qualities she has to be a player she required at King's Landing. Her courtesy of armor is essentially a "poker face"; she knows how to hide her emotions very well and her level of self-control is high. Observant; she was the only one - besides olenna and littlefinger both astute players - who foresaw the second kingslaying coup of Joffrey/Margaery/Loras and because of it war would break out in King's Landing between Tyrells and Lannisters, learned fairly easily what was going on in the Vale and knew that Lyn Corbray was the mole of Littlefinger among the Lord Declarants. Lying: Lies and Arbor Gold she lied to Littlefinger into his face and he didn't realize it so I would say that lying is coming very easily for her. Manipulative; I admit she isn't overly good at it but still two examples: manipulated joffrey so he wouldn't kill Dontos, persuaded Tyrion to not come along with her to the Godswood. Quick-witted: how quickly recovered in her first chapter in AGOT and came to the aid of frightened noblewomen and calmed them - this also shows that she can work under pressure. Yes Sansa has mainly been on the defense, but that was because she couldn't do anything else as she had no agency nor the power to do anything else.

Sandor asked her to stay under the radar and not create problems for herself and she followed his advice. I am not sure what is so genuis about this. But okay she learned this from Sandor. Something new! What exactly has she learned from Cersei, Margaery and Olenna? Margaery, Olenna and LF continued to manipulate her for their own gains. Jon often recalls advice from his mentors (Kill the boy and let the man be born etc.). Dany recalls Jorah's advice when she is alone in the desert. Does Sansa recall any such valuable advice from Cersei, Margaery, Olenna? From Tyrion?

She was an unwitting participant in Joffrey's death. She unwittingly went to Dontos. What's the point of having a poker face if she was used by everyone around her to further their own plans. Of course she realized what Olenna had done after the fact. She would be AGoT levels of stupid at that point if she had not figured out her role in what happened. But she continues to swallow LF's lies because they are kindly meant and for her own good.

Manipulating Joffrey? Even Myrcella can manipulate Joffrey, he's that dumb. If that's supposed to be a sign of Sansa's intelligence, I am not sure what to say. Dany is out there trying to deal with different factions of a foreign culture (And she's only two years older), Jon is dealing with Kings and Wildlings, Arya is killing men, Bran is using the weirnet and Sansa can manipulate Joffrey!

So what exactly did she learn in KL? That it's wise to keep one's mouth shut and not stir the waters? I think that's been a well learned lesson because that's what she has been doing for 3 books.

Though in AFFC that absolutely changes. While it may seem in first glance she went to one abuse to the other she has a whole lot more freedom than before. We learned from Sansa that the Older branch of Royce and some other houses were to the point of revolt against Lady Arryn to join Robb. So we know that there are Stark supporters there. Sansa can make possibly allies here in the Vale.

Sansa can possibly make allies. But Sansa is so scared of them, that she can't even speak up until LF encourages her to do so. That's the problem with her. She never takes the initiative to do anything or come up with her own plans and ideas. She does whatever she's told. Even meeting Dontos was planned and set up by LF and Dontos.

Aside from this we know that Littlefinger has some scheme for Sansa and we have been given some hints that she won't go along with his plan. Sansa doesn't want to wed, not now and perhaps never. And since his scheme requires the death of her cousin gives her even more reason to revolt against him. Despite his bratty behaviour Sansa has developed a bond with him and since how heartbroken she was about the death of her family I don't think she will go along with her cousin's death. As last her last chapter ended before we got any glimpse into her thoughts. This sounds to me that GRRM is setting up and giving us hints that there is a high probability that Sansa won't go along with Littlefinger and outrightly go work against him and make the next step of becoming a player. Lastly we should never forget about the "Maid slaying the Giant". To me we are getting awful a lot of hints that Sansa is set up to become a political player in the upcoming two books and has a large role to play. I hardly doubt that GRRM would give her 24 chapters, pay attention to her character development and give us so many thematic and foreshadowing of her narrative if she wasn't important or would play a big role.

Everything here is mostly assumptions and speculations about what can happen in the next couple of books. Till date she has not shown the intelligence and cunning required to play the game. She is still naive and scared and all too eager to do what she's told. She lied about Marillion because LF told her to. She wants SR calm because LF told her that was good. If LF told her to give SR a lethal dose of sweetsleep I think she will do it (Her conversation with the Maester was hinting at something there)

Unless GRRM spends a big chunk of the next two books on Sansa, it's going to be hard to make her a player or ruler in an organic manner. He spend 23 chapters on Jon and Dany in ADwD just to show them as leaders and rulers. With two books remaining and a lot of important events that need to take place in those two books, I am not sure how much time will be spend on the Vale. If Sansa suddenly turns into a political mastermind in a couple of chapters that's really bad writing.

I think she will unwittingly take down LF. The key word being unwittingly.

Sansa is not still where she was in book 2. If you can't see how she's changed since then, well, I'm sorry for you.

Can you tell me what are the changes in Sansa from where she was at the end of book 2 to the end of book 4?

GRRM doesn't develop all characters at the same pace. Not by a long shot. There's simply far too many for him to do so and even attempt to have any sort of cohesion.

So you are saying that while he spend 5 books making Bran, Arya, Jon, Dany etc into leaders, assassins, wargs and Queens, he will only need a few chapters to make Sansa into a master spy Queen?

Sansa got some serious development in ADWD, though, unlike many other characters. She is definitely not the starry eyed little girl who dreamt about a knight in shiny armour.

That's amazing considering that she does not make an appearance at all in ADwD.

And I still don't see anything in Sansa's narrative that's about learning to rule. Which was the point of contention that spawned this whole conversation in the first place.

[Mad Lady Lothston]

Sansa has the most experience in court, so I think she'd be the most skilled ruler. Arya is clever and tough, but she's not exactly... diplomatic. She strikes me as a little bit too headstrong and vindictive to be a good ruler, at least on her own. I think if both Sansa and Arya ruled together (yeah, I know that's not possible, but I can dream), they would balance each other out and it would be ideal.

Rickon, does, however, have the advantage of being male, which means less succession drama. He's too young to have formed an actually personality yet, though, so I have no idea if he'd be an actually good ruler.

[Lord Reaver]

That's amazing considering that she does not make an appearance at all in ADwD.

And I still don't see anything in Sansa's narrative that's about learning to rule. Which was the point of contention that spawned this whole conversation in the first place.

Heh, AFFC then. Misremembered. Point still stands, however, and more so with how some characters don't get any chapters in some of the books. If memory serves, Arya only had 3 chapters in AFFC and 2 in ADWD. That's not a heck of a lot more development there.

Sansas narrative is about learning the game. Mainly the hard way. She's had to come to some fairly hard realizations about life, as evidenced by the quotes about marriage, knights etc.

In my book, playing the game is a part of ruling, so there you go, she's learnt that.

Her "lessons" seem a heck of a lot more relevant that what Arya has learnt in regards to ruling.

[Lord Reaver]

So you are saying that while he spend 5 books making Bran, Arya, Jon, Dany etc into leaders, assassins, wargs and Queens, he will only need a few chapters to make Sansa into a master spy Queen?

Chapters by POV char.

Bran: 21

Arya: 33

Jon: 42

Daenerys: 31

Sansa: 24

So, there we go. Sansa has more chapters than Bran. He's already been making Sansa into a "master spy queen", she's just not quite there yet, in the same way that Bran isn't quite a super greenseer yet. If I'm not mistaken, most of Bran's "superpowers" were developed over a rather small number of chapters.

[The Stags Man]

Brilliant! This has turned into a Sansa thread....like every other thread that mentions her. -_-

Who would I like to inherit Winterfell? If Rickon did not exist, I'd say Arya. She is capable of becoming a good ruler. She is charismatic, always manages to take the lead in any group she's with, so we can say she'll be able to gather people around her. Not to mention that Nymeria manages to gather a large host of wolves, which I think is foreshadowing of Arya herself managing to gather allies for the Starks once she comes back. She actually knows how the smallfolk live and tended to hang out with them even in Winterfell, so she'll be able to understand what they want. She is very resourceful and manipulative so that will help as well. She, by her own admission, is good at economics and running a household. And as for "she only wants revenge", that's ridiculous. She does want revenge, yes, but as she proved with Sandor, she is willing to put that aside if not perusing vengeance can lead to something else that she wants (like going home to her family).

However, I don't think she'll ever be a ruler. She wants to be powerful enough to control her destiny and choices, but that does not mean she wants to be a ruler. I think she just wants to be with her family in Winterfell and to have her agency. And I don't think it's fair to exclude Rickon just because we love other characters more. The only realistic way Rickon won't inherit Winterfell is if he dies and I don't want any more Starks dead, so All Hail Rickon, the King in the North!

Also Rickon is feral? What? Have you people ever met a three year old? Some of them are wild blizzards. Sheesh. He's probably going to turn out perfectly normal. Rickon is young and has tons of potential.

:agree:

Love everything you seid man!

[Lord Reaver]

Arya isn't a serial killer. There are entire essays out there on how she isn't. Disturbed? Yes, to a high degree. Un-salvageable as a human being? No. That's like saying child soldiers can't be rehabilitated.

No, it's like saying I wouldn't want a child soldier to be my king.

There's an ever so slight difference between being "rehabilitated" to the point where they can function somewhat normally in a society and you know, being supreme ruler of a monarchy.

[Dicer]

Sansas narrative is about learning the game. Mainly the hard way. She's had to come to some fairly hard realizations about life, as evidenced by the quotes about marriage, knights etc.

And I am asking again, when exactly is she learning the game? Her narrative is about learning to rule, learning the game etc, but I don't see any of this.

The closest she has come to learning the game is LF teaching her about how he manipulated the Lords. Do you think that's going to be enough for her to turn the tables on LF and take control of the vale? Do you see the Sansa of AFfC actually being capable of doing this?

In my book, playing the game is a part of ruling, so there you go, she's learnt that.

Her "lessons" seem a heck of a lot more relevant that what Arya has learnt in regards to ruling.

Oh, she has already learned to play the game and rule? So those couple of lessons that LF gave her is all that is enough to master the game?

And how is it relevant in any way since she has not used anything she has learned to do anything.

Chapters by POV char.

Bran: 21

Arya: 33

Jon: 42

Daenerys: 31

Sansa: 24

So, there we go. Sansa has more chapters than Bran. He's already been making Sansa into a "master spy queen", she's just not quite there yet, in the same way that Bran isn't quite a super greenseer yet. If I'm not mistaken, most of Bran's "superpowers" were developed over a rather small number of chapters.

So what if Sansa got 3 more chapters than Bran. In the 21 chapters he had, Bran developed his powers and reached Bloodraven. If I am not mistaken, he will have a major role to play since he is beyond the wall and it's time for the Others. There will be more of a focus on Bran in the next two books than on Sansa in the vale. Considering that Bran has already developed a lot of his powers, it will be interesting to see a Greenseer in action which is likely in the next two books.

And that's my point. As the story nears it's conclusion, most of the young characters have already been developed and been placed in position to play their roles. Jon is already a leader, Dany is a Queen, Arya is a assassin, Bran is a greenseer. They now how to act.

Except for Sansa who is still scared and naive and a pawn.

Bran's development into a greenseer starts right from book 1. Since the moment he wakes up, he's getting messages from the 3 eyed crow and then later Jojen. Sansa spends all of book 1 being stupid, until Ned losing his head finally wakes her up. Book 2 she realizes all the stories about knights are false and spends her time getting abused by Joffrey and Cersei. Book 3 she gets manipulated by everyone and finally ends up on a ship to the Fingers. Book 4 she does whatever LF tells her to do because she has no choice. I am not sure what she is supposed to be learning here except that her life sucks.

And how exactly has GRRM been making Sansa into a master spy Queen? I think I must be missing something here, because I see nothing of this clever spy mistress.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Brilliant! This has turned into a Sansa thread....like every other thread that mentions her.

sorry for it derailing :(

[Lord Reaver]

And I am asking again, when exactly is she learning the game? Her narrative is about learning to rule, learning the game etc, but I don't see any of this.

The closest she has come to learning the game is LF teaching her about how he manipulated the Lords. Do you think that's going to be enough for her to turn the tables on LF and take control of the vale? Do you see the Sansa of AFfC actually being capable of doing this?

Oh, she has already learned to play the game and rule? So those couple of lessons that LF gave her is all that is enough to master the game?

And how is it relevant in any way since she has not used anything she has learned to do anything.

I'm sorry, I can't help you if you don't see it. It's most likely because you don't want to see it, so any attempt would be beyond futile.

Yes, I do indeed foresee Sansa "turning the tables" on LF. She might need a few more chapters before she gets there, but to me it seems a very likely turn of events.

No, her entire arc is her learning, not just LF's "lessons". People learn from many sources, not simply from being instructed.

Sansa has learned a very important lesson: Don't strike until the time is right. Until then, you let our enemies think they have everything under control.

[Dicer]

I'm sorry, I can't help you if you don't see it. It's most likely because you don't want to see it, so any attempt would be beyond futile.

I am sorry, but if her development is so abstract that readers can't see it and those who can see it can't explain it, then that's just bad writing or this so called development is just not there and mostly wishful thinking on the part of her fans.

Yes, I do indeed foresee Sansa "turning the tables" on LF. She might need a few more chapters before she gets there, but to me it seems a very likely turn of events.

No, her entire arc is her learning, not just LF's "lessons". People learn from many sources, not simply from being instructed.

I do think Sansa will get the best of LF. But I think it will be unwittingly or the result of a spur of the moment act. I don't see Sansa outwitting LF in any way and I don't see her becoming a player either.

I still don't know what she is supposed to have learned from all these different sources since no one has been able to point them out to me yet. People keep repeating that she is learning from everyone. What exactly is she learning and from whom?

Sansa has learned a very important lesson: Don't strike until the time is right. Until then, you let our enemies think they have everything under control.

Really? Sansa is just waiting for the right time to strike? She has her plans all ready is it? in which of her POV chapters does she think that she is fooling her enemies and waiting for the right time to strike.

I feel like I am reading about a completely different character as opposed to the way her fans see Sansa.

[ARYa_Nym]

I want Bran but Rickon will do with a qualified adult regent to help.

As for Arya she doesn't want to rule but I don't see why she couldn't. There's a quote that said kill one person and you're a murderer, kill thousands and you're a conqueror, kill millions and you're a god. It's a matter of perspective. Tywin has committed more atrocities than she ever will yet was a good ruler. Now she doesn't have his political acumen but not many do.

And I love how Arya fits most of Varys' speech which I always felt he was lying about parts when it came to Aegon.

Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be,

^She has some martial training but moreso what befits an assassin.

He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues,

Arya knows Braavosi, the trade tongue, High Valyrian, and is learning Pentoshi, and Lyseni.

She reads and writes obviously. She excelled at sums and managing a household.

he has studied history and law and poetry.

^Hasn't done this except possibly the first. But she's doing other things like picking up skills Varys has. Mummery, deception, poisoning/potions, masquerading, stealth she already had as well as manipulation, cunning, and the ability to kill.

A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them.

She has studied the Seven, old gods, and the MFG.

He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound,

Let's see Arya lives with a fishmonger and sells fish. Jon said she swam like a fish and she has swum in rivers. She helped Umma with cooking as well as specifically cooking fish. She cleaned Sandor's wound.

he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid.

Well, Arya wasn't a privileged captive the majority of her journey so she spent long periods being hungry and she was hunted several times. She was afraid as well.

[Lord Reaver]

I am sorry, but if her development is so abstract that readers can't see it and those who can see it can't explain it, then that's just bad writing or this so called development is just not there and mostly wishful thinking on the part of her fans.

I would never be so presumptous as suggesting what readers in general can and cannot see. I just said you can't and that I won't even try to explain, because you are clearly not going to accept any argument to that fact, having already thoroughly made up your mind as to how you want to view the character.

Goading me won't change that, I'm afraid.

[WildBlood]

Yes but Again the will needs to be ratified first a d what if wanderly pledges for Rickon.... Starks cant fight Starks..... As far as i know till the will is ratified i think it should go to Rickon

So what, they just need to stop by a notary public and get it sealed? Robb was the KotN and he put it to paper with witnesses. That is ratification IMO

[The Stags Man]

I would never be so presumptous as suggesting what readers in general can and cannot see. I just said you can't and that I won't even try to explain, because you are clearly not going to accept any argument to that fact, having already thoroughly made up your mind as to how you want to view the character.

Goading me won't change that, I'm afraid.

Well explain it to me then. After reading the books Sansa has only seemed like a meek, munipulated, observer to me.

[ARYa_Nym]

To be clear whoever is in charge needs to be equipped to deal with a disaster. It's probably why I see Rickon with some kind of militaristic Northman as regent with Jon helping. The North is about to be a mess with the LN 2.0 They're going to start dying. They're going to start starving.

Bran is also in a prime position to gain knowledge which is needed. I would prefer he not stay in that cave. He could make a good lord.

[Elan Morin Tedronai]

Bran if he returns to Winterfell, with Rickon as his heir. If he doesn't return Rickon, though a legitimised Jon would be pretty cool as well.

No Sansa or Arya please, it needs a male Stark to carry on the name.