Early Stark Timeline and 5 She-Wolves

[Bright Blue Eyes]

No. One the one hand, the information alluding to post-Conquest are details like "Kingsroad" or "Lord" Stark, very small details likely to change during the oral tradition, especially with the Wildlings, knowing next to nothing about the society south of the Wall. On the other hand, we have an utter lack of this story by the Starks themselves, nor does any other noble or maester comment on it. Which they definitively would if it was recent history.

[History of Westeros]

K this is totally speculative and it is assuming some parts of the Blood of Dragons MUSH is correct and then other parts are not entirely correct. I am assuming the Stark family tree in the MUSH is accurate and the Blackwood family tree is slightly off, but I am keeping all the dates. If true, this might be kind of a big deal.

House Stark MUSH Family Tree: http://www.westeros.org/BoD/Houses/Entry/House_Stark/

House Blackwood MUSH Family Tree: http://www.westeros.org/BoD/Houses/Entry/House_Blackwood

Cregan Stark's 2nd marriage was to Lady Alysanne of House Blackwood

----They had a daughter Marian (Stark) [b. 140 AC]

Marian (Stark) married Seth Blackwood [b. 138 AC] (Heir to Raventree Hall)

----(k so this is where it differs from the MUSH Blackwood tree) (In the MUSH family tree, Melissa is the much younger sister of Seth by 20 years, 12 year separation between births)

----Marian and Seth have a daughter Mylissa Blackwood [b. 158 AC] (Marian would be around 18 years old for her first child, Seth would be 20, not a stretch at all)

Mylissa Blackwood was the Sixth Mistress of Aegon IV Targaryen, King of Westeros

----They had a bastard son, Brynden Rivers [b. 175 AC http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1468]

Brynden Rivers, Bloodraven, would be the Great Grandson of Cregan Stark! Stark Blood and Targaryen Blood!

Meant to respond to this earlier. I believe this was commented on by Ran, and that the MUSH Blackwood tree is accurate, or close enough. Specifically Bloodraven is not part Stark, as someone else had this same idea :(

[Mithras]

“My pardons, Lord Eddard. You did not come to hear foolish meanderings of a summer forgotten before your father was born."

Pycelle was talking about the summer in Maekar's reign. For seven years of Maekar’s reign (which started in 221), a hot summer persisted. Some thought it was the Great Summer come at last. When it broke it was followed by a short autumn and a long, cold winter.

I dont think Pycelle was wrong and surely Ned did not correct him. Therefore, Rickard Stark was born after 228. A short autumn and a long cold winter can make you forget the summer. Therefore, Rickard should be born some time after the summer ended so that people forgot there was a long summer once. That makes his birth time 229 or 230 for me.

[Mithras]

“My pardons, Lord Eddard. You did not come to hear foolish meanderings of a summer forgotten before your father was born."

Pycelle was talking about the summer in Maekar's reign. For seven years of Maekar’s reign (which started in 221), a hot summer persisted. Some thought it was the Great Summer come at last. When it broke it was followed by a short autumn and a long, cold winter.

I dont think Pycelle was wrong and surely Ned did not correct him. Therefore, Rickard Stark was born after 228. A short autumn and a long cold winter can make you forget the summer. Therefore, Rickard should be born some time after the summer ended so that people forgot there was a long summer once. That makes his birth time 229 or 230 for me.

[Return of the Third Reed]

“My pardons, Lord Eddard. You did not come to hear foolish meanderings of a summer forgotten before your father was born."

Pycelle was talking about the summer in Maekar's reign. For seven years of Maekar’s reign (which started in 221), a hot summer persisted. Some thought it was the Great Summer come at last. When it broke it was followed by a short autumn and a long, cold winter.

I dont think Pycelle was wrong and surely Ned did not correct him. Therefore, Rickard Stark was born after 228. A short autumn and a long cold winter can make you forget the summer. Therefore, Rickard should be born some time after the summer ended so that people forgot there was a long summer once. That makes his birth time 229 or 230 for me.

Making him 52/53 when he died.

Strangely for Westeros however, he would have been more than 30 by the time he had a child. That's the only beef I potentially have with this theory.

This also (IMO) helps add to my theory that Edwyle was not yet at an age to rule when Beron (who I think was his father) died, given that there is an almost twenty year gap between Beron's death and Rickard's birth.

[History of Westeros]

"Before your father was born"... Interesting, but it's dubious that this was meant literally.

Assuming it is accurate, I don't really see a reason to think he was born right after, given the full line is "forgotten before your father was born". To me that is a wide range of possibilities but it argues for later. 5-10 years IMO.

I seriously doubt people forgot about an incredibly long summer 2 years later.

[History of Westeros]

It's true that no nobleman mentions Bael the Bard, but Qhorin does. I agree with the point about "lord" and "kingsroad" not necessarily being literal.

Also if the Bael story is true, the Starks would not be proud of it, nor would many northerners considering how much House Stark is revered. That could explain why the story hasn't mentioned by others.

[History of Westeros]

I somehow missed all this, really excellent work! This should serve as *the* resource on this subject for a good while I think.

I'd say more but I'm mobile and I can't quote so I'll have to wait.

[Mithras]

"Before your father was born"... Interesting, but it's dubious that this was meant literally.

Assuming it is accurate, I don't really see a reason to think he was born right after, given the full line is "forgotten before your father was born". To me that is a wide range of possibilities but it argues for later. 5-10 years IMO.

I seriously doubt people forgot about an incredibly long summer 2 years later.

Maekar should suffer at least one Blackfyre Rebellion and that must be during his last years where they have this long winter. These together may make people forget the long summer.

[History of Westeros]

Maekar should suffer at least one Blackfyre Rebellion and that must be during his last years where they have this long winter. These together may make people forget the long summer.

I guess "forgot" is very open ended here, because it can't be meant literally. I agree in principle that significant major events could equate to "forgetting" the long summer.

Not so sure Maekar suffered any of the Blackfyre Rebellions though. The 2nd was in 212, the 5th in 259. Maekar ruled from 221-233. While both the 3rd (small chance) and 4th (good chance) could've happened during Maekar's reign we cannot assume that, as it's also possible that neither of them did.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I guess "forgot" is very open ended here, because it can't be meant literally. I agree in principle that significant major events could equate to "forgetting" the long summer.

Not so sure Maekar suffered any of the Blackfyre Rebellions though. The 2nd was in 212, the 5th in 259. Maekar ruled from 221-233. While both the 3rd (small chance) and 4th (good chance) could've happened during Maekar's reign we cannot assume that, as it's also possible that neither of them did.

259 was the 6th. The War of the Ninepenny Kings is the 6th and ordinarily not counted into the numbered Blackfyre Rebellions. Probably because it was neither a rebellion itself nor was it fought on Westerosi soil.

[History of Westeros]

259 was the 6th. The War of the Ninepenny Kings is the 6th and ordinarily not counted into the numbered Blackfyre Rebellions. Probably because it was neither a rebellion itself nor was it fought on Westerosi soil.

I've never seen that confirmed anywhere, have you? SSM or something?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I've never seen that confirmed anywhere, have you? SSM or something?

Not directly confirmed, but strongly implied. It is never mentioned under the name Blackfyre Rebellion. Furthermore, the "Yronwoods rode with Bittersteel three times", but not in the Second Blackfyre Rebellion, and the latest Blackfyre Rebellions (even those before the Wo9PK) would have been too late for Bittersteel, he would have been too old.

Egg had rebellions all over the place, especially after his sons made their marriage decisions unwisely. Which probably caused the fifth Blackfyre Rebellion. But Bittersteel would have been ~80 or the like. Neither could that be the cause for the Wo9PK, unless Egg's sons married during their forties.

The symbolic value of seven Blackfyre Rebellions altogether, including fAegon, is not to be neglected either.

The timeline is probably

- First Blackfyre Rebellion during Daeron's reign, ended at Redgrass Fields in open battle. Bittersteel participated. Full scale civil war.

- Second Blackfyre Rebellion during Aerys' reign, sorry affair that ended at Whitewalls.

- Third and Fourth Rebellion during Maekar's and early Egg's reign. Bittersteel participated. Full scale civil war.

- Fifth Rebellion midways through Egg's reign after his marriage alliances "turned fast friends into bitter enemies". Full scale civil war, but Bittersteel already dead.

- Wot9PK at the end of Egg's reign, a preemptive strike by Egg at Maelys the Monstrous and his eight companions in Essos before he could gather enough of a power base to attempt an invasion of Westeros. Opposed to the five other Blackfyre Rebellions, this one did not have any Westerosi Houses rising in rebellion nor any fighting in Westeros at all. It was purely a war outside the borders against a foreign force. Can't be properly called a rebellion.

[History of Westeros]

A few thoughts and suggestions:

I think it likely enough that the Skagosi rebellion occurred close to the time a new lord ascended and/or close to Long Lake. The Skaggs may have simply rebelled when they felt like it, but it's not unlikely that they chose their moment, as surely they knew defeating Winterfell would be difficult.

So it fits nicely that we're suggesting a young lord, but perhaps the rebellion came very close to the time Donnor took the reigns. Long Lake could be a little later and/or the Skagosi rebellion could be a bit sooner. I think moving the Skaggs back makes more sense, as I agree with putting Willam as a young man makes the most sense to guess, b/c he had no sons.

(your dates on Brandon Stark's reign are off, just a mistype it looks like)

You have Beron's wife dying in childbirth and her being one of the She-Wolves. Is that a mistake or are you suggesting Beron re-married?

Small problem could be that we only have no Stark lords dying to the Great Spring Sickness. Possible but perhaps not likely, though the survival of so many widows may argue the GSS didn't hit very hard. It also didn't hit Dorne very much, so maybe we're ok there. I had always thought more than one Stark Lord died to Dagon but I can see how that would be difficult to fit.

I think a great addition to the list would be to add "son/brother/nephew/etc of ****" to each entry in the Lords roll.

[Rooghar Targaryen]

Thanks for the input. I updated a few things.

I fixed the Brandon Stark typo. I added "Known Siblings" under each Lord. I also added the Maester Pycelle quote about Eddard's father being born after the 'Great Summer.' (Probably means Rickard was born post 230ish AC, which is kinda where we had him anyway.)

Idk if Edwyle is Beron's son for sure so I can't connect Edwyle's mom dying in childbirth to Beron's wife not being one of the She-Wolves. If we think that Edwyle is Beron's son, then ya I agree Beron's wife couldn't be a She-Wolf because she would be dead. But I will keep it as a 'maybe' until we get some more info.

The Longlake, Skagosi, Great Spring Sickness, and Greyjoy Invasion part of the timeline is really up in the air. I am not opposed to changing it around since it is nearly all speculation lol.

Do you have any other suggestions or ideas?

[Queen Alienor]

Wow, this is a great write up!

Also, somehow I always thought Sansa was a name from the Riverlands, but now it seems like it is a northern name, maybe even a traditional Stark one... oops :)

[Lord Martin]

Really excellent work, I see you've checked other similar threads and this is a really nice condensation. Thank you!

I'll try to compare with my own notes to see if you missed anything but this looks like all of it!

[History of Westeros]

We missed a clue as to the layout of the crypt.

Theon pointed. “The ones on this side were Kings in the North. Torrhen was the last.”

You might say by "side" he means front/back not left/right. But:

A few names came back to him, unbidden, whispered in the ghostly voice of Maester Luwin. King Edrick Snowbeard, who had ruled the north for a hundred years. Brandon the Shipwright, who had sailed beyond the sunset. Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf. My namesake. Lord Beron Stark, who made common cause with Casterly Rock to war against Dagon Greyjoy, Lord of Pyke, in the days when the

Seven Kingdoms were ruled in all but name by the bastard sorcerer men called Bloodraven.

“That king is missing his sword,” Lady Dustin observed.

So after several kings, Theon notices Beron, (a lord) THEN Lady Dustin notices another king. So this is pretty much certain except... Bran leaving the crypt:

The shadows behind them swallowed his father as the shadows ahead retreated to unveil other statues; no mere lords, these, but the old Kings in the North. On their brows they wore stone crowns. Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. Edwyn the Spring King. Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf. Brandon the Burner and Brandon the Shipwright. Jorah and Jonos, Brandon the Bad, Walton the Moon King, Edderion the Bridegroom, Eyron, Benjen the Sweet and Benjen the Bitter, King Edrick Snowbeard.

Note that Edrick Snowbeard is first for Theon and last for Bran, which is consistent. But Bran's passage seems to indicate that they pass from the areas where the lords are to where the kings are.

This could be explained simply, though. More Lords than Kings:

k k k k k k k

L L L L L L L L L

There's also the problem that Bran might not be able to see all those Lords while sitting in Eddard's tomb if they are all on one side.

Anyway, the ordering isn't that important so I'm probably confusing things to no good end, but I couldn't help notice it.

[Rooghar Targaryen]

Everyone that Bran mentions, in the order that they were introduced from the three quotes. Number represents their tomb.
Lords

0. Eddard's future spot

1: Lyanna // 2: Brandon // 3: Rickard // 4: Edwyle
5: William // 6: Artos // 7:Donnor // 8:Beron // 9: Rodwell
10: Jonnel // 11: Barth // 12: Brandon // 13. Cregan // *R*: Rickon Stark (Cregan's Father)

*LL*: unnamed Lords pre Rickon and post Torrhen

Kings

14.Torrhen // 15. Edwyn the Spring King // 16. Rodrik // 17. Brandon the Burner // 18. Brandon the Shipwright

19. Theon Stark // 20 Jorah Stark // 21 Jonos Stark // 22. Brandon the Bad // 23 Walton the Moon King

24 Edderion the Bridegroom // 25. Eyron // 26. Benjen the Sweet // 27. Benjen the Bitter

28. Edrick Snowbeard // 29. Rickard Stark // 30. Jon Stark

If the Kings are all on one side |///| = Pillars

______|///|__14__|///|_15__|///|_16__|///|_17__|///|_18__|///|_19__|///|_20__|///|__21__|///|__22_|///|__23__|///|__24__|///|__25__|///|__26__|///|__27__|///|__28__|///|__29__|///|__30__|///|

/

/

/

(0 (Bran's POV)

\

\_____|///|_1_3_2_|///|__4__|///|__8__|///|__6__|///|__5__|///|__7__|///|__9__|///|__12__|///|__11__|///|__10__|///|__13__|///|__*R*__|///|_*LL*__|///|_*LL*__|///|_*LL*__|///|_*LL*__|///|_*LL*__|///|

[Rooghar Targaryen]

Also, an interesting observation. From 100 AC - 300 AC there were 15 Stark Lords. So just for fun if we say there is an average of 15 Lords/Kings every 200 years, that means there were around 75 Lords/kings every 1000 years. If Winterfell is 5000 years old and each king has a sepulcher/tomb in the crypt, then there is something like 375 sepulchers/tombs! Now if Winterfell is the supposed 8000 years old of legend, then there would be something like 600 sepulchers/tombs!