Early Stark Timeline and 5 She-Wolves

[History of Westeros]

I haven't really followed this discussion but I do think that the age should not be taken into account for Rickard to ask a trial by combat.

If he hadn't asked for a TBC, the King would have conducted a trial. And we all know how that would have gone down with the Mad King to judge. Rickard's only chance was a victory in a TBC. And he decided to take that small chance at survival.

Completely agree, Rickard turned what he assumed was a 0% chance at survival into what he thought was an above 0% chance. Turns out he was dead no matter what he chose.

[Mithras]

Age is important. Rickard could have selected a champion for him if he was too old to fight. Surely the North should not lack such a fighter. Besides, Barristan is no typical example. And why is Rickard the only child of Edwyle? Did all his siblings died young or did his father died young?

Besides grandfather's grandfather's time quote is very clear. William should be Edwyle's father. No need to further complicate things. AFIR Asha said Dagon was her grandfather's grandfather but Greyjoys are 1 generation older than Starks. Balon's youngest is older than Ned's oldest. Balon's oldest son was not much younger from Harras Harlaw and Victarion.

[History of Westeros]

And why is Rickard the only child of Edwyle? Did all his siblings died young or did his father died young?

We don't know, but we know it's true. GRRM said Rickard was either an only child or that he maybe had a sister. Definitely no brothers.

[Mithras]

We don't know, but we know it's true. GRRM said Rickard was either an only child or that he maybe had a sister. Definitely no brothers.

The only lord who died old and have only one child I can think of is Jon Arryn. And we know his case, his seed was weak. He had several wives.

[Rooghar Targaryen]

The app does a nice job of summarizing Rickard's choice to do a trial by combat.

"Rickard's son and heir, Brandon, raced to King's Landing to confront the by now thoroughly mad King Aerys. Instead of hearing Brandon's complaints, Aerys imprisoned him and his companions, then summoned Lord Rickard to the capital. When Rickard arrived, he found himself sentenced to death for treason along with his son. Thinking to commute the sentence, he asked Aerys for trial by combat, which Aerys granted him—only to be told that Aerys's champion would be fire."

Rickard was already sentenced to death, so the trial by combat is more of a last ditch effort to not be executed. And most likely Rickard wasn't given an option to have a champion fight for him. Aerys was king and didn't have to follow any standard trial by combat rules. So basically Rickard could have been younger or older, the trial by combat would have been attempted even if he was really old.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

This is great, well done! That must have taken you a long time to put together.

One small thought though: I saw you used MUSH information. Yet most of the MUSH family trees was made up for the game, and isn't canon.The only MUSH stuff that has become canon, is the information regarding the time of the Dance of the Dragons. Perhaps you could indicate that somehow, in the list with names and years?

Another thought, this time about the She-wolves of Winterfell. Would widows of Stark men count? Reading the word she-wolves makes me think about female Starks from birth (Arya is referred to as a she-wolf, for example, by Sandor Clegane). So the she-wolves could be the sisters and daughters of a Stark Lord?

[Mithras]

Is there any SSM or convincing evidence that Dunk kissed Old Nan? Or the exact age of Old Nan? The girl had brown hair and Hodor is a tall man with brown eyes and brown beard. But the Jeyne also has brown hair and the Starks have dark brown hair. We dont know Hodor's age but he is not older than mid 20's in my opinion. Therefore, Old Nan being his great-grandmother and kissing with Dunk does not seem compatible to me, Old Nan must be younger than Dunk at least a generation or two.

“Wildlings have invaded the realm before.” Jon had heard the tales from Old Nan and Maester Luwin both, back at Winterfell. “Raymun Redbeard led them south in the time of my grandfather’s grandfather, and before him there was a king named Bael the Bard.”

That was how Raymun Redbeard had done it, Raymun who had been King-Beyond-the-Wall in the days of his grandfather’s grandfather. Jack Musgood had been the lord commander in those days. Jolly Jack, he was called before Redbeard came down upon the north; Sleepy Jack, forever after. Raymun’s host had met a bloody end on the shores of Long Lake, caught between Lord Willam of Winterfell and the Drunken Giant, Harmond Umber. Red-beard had been slain by Artos the Implacable, Lord Willam’s younger brother. The Watch arrived too late to fight the wildlings, but in time to bury them, the task that Artos Stark assigned them in his wroth as he grieved above the headless corpse of his fallen brother.

"When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord Jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight. On their stone chairs they sat with stone wolves at their feet. This was where they came when the warmth had seeped out of their bodies; this was the dark hall of the dead, where the living feared to tread.

Artos is never called a Lord, neither by Jon or in Bran’s catalogue. That is why I think William had an heir that succeeded him. Artos must have served his nephew well so that his statue was placed near his brother. I think Ned was not the first one to make a statue of a Stark who was not the Lord of Winterfell.

I think the evidence is very clear about William Stark being Jon’s grandfather’s grandfather. Hence, he must be Edwyle’s father. Why do you need to complicate things and take Bran’s catalogue as not chronological? If you take Willam as Edwyle’s father Bran’s catalogue can be taken as chronological.

As a final note, this SSM and this one are not actually SSM’s but secondary reports of a speech from GRRM. These statements are not GRRM’s original words and cannot be taken as %100 true.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

This is great, well done! That must have taken you a long time to put together.

One small thought though: I saw you used MUSH information. Yet most of the MUSH family trees was made up for the game, and isn't canon.The only MUSH stuff that has become canon, is the information regarding the time of the Dance of the Dragons. Perhaps you could indicate that somehow, in the list with names and years?

Another thought, this time about the She-wolves of Winterfell. Would widows of Stark men count? Reading the word she-wolves makes me think about female Starks from birth (Arya is referred to as a she-wolf, for example, by Sandor Clegane). So the she-wolves could be the sisters and daughters of a Stark Lord?

Rhaenys-- I believe if you scroll up or read the discussions on the original thread that inspired this one you'll see that History of Westeros has reported that the Stark tree was updated by Ran and Linda after they submitted their work on the World book, to bring it in line with upcoming information. I believe that is the only MUSH information Rhoogar has treated as acceptable here. The Blackwood tree reference is provided for interest only since there is a Stark-Blackwood connection with Cregan and his daughter. The SSM that is referenced for the She Wolves specifically says "widows of Lords." While Lamprey is correct that this is a report from a reading, and not GRRM's exact words (as many of the email type SSMs are) I don't think that makes it necessarily less valuable. We have seen recently with TPatQ that these reports are generally quite reliable.

Is there any SSM or convincing evidence that Dunk kissed Old Nan? Or the exact age of Old Nan? The girl had brown hair and Hodor is a tall man with brown eyes and brown beard. But the Jeyne also has brown hair and the Starks have dark brown hair. We dont know Hodor's age but he is not older than mid 20's in my opinion. Therefore, Old Nan being his great-grandmother and kissing with Dunk does not seem compatible to me, Old Nan must be younger than Dunk at least a generation or two.

Just to address this, if Hodor was born c.275 and you use and average of 25 years per generation, that would place his great grandparents generation as born c.200, or somewhat earlier if we allow that Hodor could well be born from a younger child of a younger child. The vision is perfectly in line with that time frame I believe.

Your other questions were addressed extensively in the thread that inspired this one (linked in the OP) We all allow that there is a possibility that Artos was not a Lord, though not a probability. It is certainly stated in the text that the only exception to the statues ever made was for Brandon and Lyanna. If there had been another exception relatively recently, imo Bran would have known.

The reason for the non-chronological thinking is, I believe, related to the new information from the MUSH tree, which we are treating as reliable for the above stated reasons. Going by that information, the sons of Cregan are listed in reverse (not chronological) order, which led us to look closely at how the names are grouped. The thinking being that it's perfectly logical to interpret Bran listing the statues as he sees them in family groups, which would not necessarily be in chronological order. The problem with taking Willam as the grandfather of Rickard, imo arises from the fact that Jon speaks of his "grandfather's grandfather" and of Willam and Artos without ever identifying one of them as that g.g..grandfather. If you did take it as chronological, imo it would be more logical to assume Artos to be Edwyle's father, with Willam, Beron, Donner and Rodwell as the recently dead Stark lords whose widows comprised the She Wolves along with Artos' wife. In either case, given the dates and the names involved it seems very logical to me to posit that Willam and Artos were cousins through the Sansa Stark line that inherited when their male cousins in the main male line died without heirs.

At any rate, I'd encourage you to browse the earlier discussions to get a feel for how Rhoogar arrived at the place he did.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Rhaenys-- I believe if you scroll up or read the discussions on the original thread that inspired this one you'll see that History of Westeros has reported that the Stark tree was updated by Ran and Linda after they submitted their work on the World book, to bring it in line with upcoming information. I believe that is the only MUSH information Rhoogar has treated as acceptable here. The Blackwood tree reference is provided for interest only since there is a Stark-Blackwood connection with Cregan and his daughter. The SSM that is referenced for the She Wolves specifically says "widows of Lords." While Lamprey is correct that this is a report from a reading, and not GRRM's exact words (as many of the email type SSMs are) I don't think that makes it necessarily less valuable. We have seen recently with TPatQ that these reports are generally quite reliable.

Just to address this, if Hodor was born c.275 and you use and average of 25 years per generation, that would place his great grandparents generation as born c.200, or somewhat earlier if we allow that Hodor could well be born from a younger child of a younger child. The vision is perfectly in line with that time frame I believe.

Your other questions were addressed extensively in the thread that inspired this one (linked in the OP) We all allow that there is a possibility that Artos was not a Lord, though not a probability. It is certainly stated in the text that the only exception to the statues ever made was for Brandon and Lyanna. If there had been another exception relatively recently, imo Bran would have known.

The reason for the non-chronological thinking is, I believe, related to the new information from the MUSH tree, which we are treating as reliable for the above stated reasons. Going by that information, the sons of Cregan are listed in reverse (not chronological) order, which led us to look closely at how the names are grouped. The thinking being that it's perfectly logical to interpret Bran listing the statues as he sees them in family groups, which would not necessarily be in chronological order. The problem with taking Willam as the grandfather of Rickard, imo arises from the fact that Jon speaks of his "grandfather's grandfather" and of Willam and Artos without ever identifying one of them as that g.g..grandfather. If you did take it as chronological, imo it would be more logical to assume Artos to be Edwyle's father, with Willam, Beron, Donner and Rodwell as the recently dead Stark lords whose widows comprised the She Wolves along with Artos' wife. In either case, given the dates and the names involved it seems very logical to me to posit that Willam and Artos were cousins through the Sansa Stark line that inherited when their male cousins in the main male line died without heirs.

At any rate, I'd encourage you to browse the earlier discussions to get a feel for how Rhoogar arrived at the place he did.

Lady Gwyn, that SSM about the widows was new for me :) and so was the information about the Stark tree update to fit the upcomming publications. Is that stated anywhere?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Lady Gwyn, that SSM about the widows was new for me :) and so was the information about the Stark tree update to fit the upcomming publications. Is that stated anywhere?

We discussed it on the earlier thread and I can't remember exactly the source! HoW can answer for sure (and hopefully will :))

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

We discussed it on the earlier thread and I can't remember exactly the source! HoW can answer for sure (and hopefully will :))

I believe this is the first Stark family thread I joined :D

Hopefully you're right and HoW can provide the source for me, it sounds interesting that the Stark tree is already updated

[Rooghar Targaryen]

Lamprey, ya Lady Gwen pretty much said everything.

The quote where Bran lists the Stark Lords is not correct Chronlogically. From the MUSH we know that the Stark Lord title went from Cregan to Jonnel to Barth and then to Brandon. If Bran's quote was reverse chronological as you are suggesting, the Stark Lord title would have gone from Cregan to Brandon to Barth and then to Jonnel. Also, Bran mentions Willam before Artos which would imply that Artos died before Willam, which is definitely not true. So based mainly on those two problems, we threw out the idea that the Bran quote is 100% chronologically correct. We think it is kinda correct, everyone is in the right general area, but there may be some descrepencies since it seems like Bran might have listed each Lord in groupings.

Like lady Gwen said, there is a lot of this discussion in the previous thread (link is in the op).

[History of Westeros]

Until around July 2013 the MUSH family tree looked like this:

Brandon Stark (b. 128), Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North,
his wife, Lady Mylarra of House Dustin (b. 130),

their children:
Branna (b. 147),
Cregan (b. 148), heir to Winterfell,
Anya (b. 151),
Edlyn (b. 153),
{Rickwell} (b. 155), dead of fever (d. 156),

his siblings:
Jonnel (b. 130), m. Ismeria Manderly (b. 130),
Jonnel's son, Rodmund (b. 148),
Jonnel's son, Harik (b. 150),
Jonnel's daughter, Issa (b. 154),

(etc)

The MUSH update specifically cites new canon info as the reason for so many changes. We know that there will be a Stark family tree in TWOIAF. Thus, we know Elio and Linda have seen it. It also happens to line up nicely with the Bran scene. That all seems to mean we can trust it. In about 11? months we will know for sure!

[Mithras]

Cregan (b. 148), heir to Winterfell,

It is not possible because Cregan was the Lord of Winterfell during Dance of the Dragons (129-131)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It is not possible because Cregan was the Lord of Winterfell during Dance of the Dragons (129-131)

Cregan could have been Brandons father. In that case, he just names one of his sons after his father.

[History of Westeros]

That was the *old* MUSH data, which I posted simply to show the difference. None of it is supposed to be accurate for anything.

The new MUSH data which has Cregan in the right place is linked at the start of this thread, and that is what we believe to be accurate for the reasons I listed.

[Mithras]

The SSM suggests that there were Stark kids (10 or so) available to be the Lord of Winterfell so ending of the line was not a problem. Recalling that a lot of Stark lords at the time died without having issues, where do these children come from?

[Nothing]

What puzzles me a little is the Old Nan's offspring. I agree with the Dunk - Nan theory, but it makes her first child born in 214 or something around. And we know her sons died in Bob's rebellion in 282. OK, the first Nan's child might be a daughter, but we still can assume, her sons died at 60+ age. Possible, but still a little strange. Her grandson died in Greyjoy rebellion in 289 as 45+ stripling and Hodor could be anything between 25-45 age.

[Rooghar Targaryen]

The SSM suggests that there were Stark kids (10 or so) available to be the Lord of Winterfell so ending of the line was not a problem. Recalling that a lot of Stark lords at the time died without having issues, where do these children come from?

One of my theories about the "lots of Stark kids running around" is that I am speculating that they weren't from the direct Stark line and a son of the current dying Lord (Beron). These Stark children (boys and girls) could have been nephews and nieces or even further relatives from the offspring of Sansa and Serena (Cregan's daughters). This would complicate the succession and could be a cause for a bunch of widows/mothers to be really aggressive in trying to get power for their particular Stark boy. Of course this is all just personal speculation, but this is one of the main reasons of why I have been hesitant to just assume Edwyle was the son of Beron.

It just seems odd that there would be a struggle for power after Beron's death if there was an obvious Father-to-son succession.

[History of Westeros]

One of my theories about the "lots of Stark kids running around" is that I am speculating that there weren't from the direct Stark line and a son of the current dying Lord (Beron). These Stark children (boys and girls) could have been nephews and nieces or even further relatives from the offspring of Sansa and Serena (Cregan's daughters). This would complicate the succession and could be a cause for a bunch of widows/mothers to be really aggressive in trying to get power for their particular Stark boy. Of course this is all just personal speculation, but this is one of the main reasons of why I have been hesitant to just assume Edwyle was the son of Beron.

It just seems odd that there would be a struggle for power after Beron's death if there was an obvious Father-to-son succession.

My thoughts exactly. But the "struggle for power" is very unclear. It could've been a "struggle for the regency" type situation. Either the succession wasn't clear or who would rule while the lord was still a boy was unclear. Or both, perhaps. We are pretty sure Beron's wife died in childbirth, which fits because she'd be one of the more likely candidates to be in charge given it's her own son holding the title.