Septa Lemore is?

[corbon]

I think one of two scenarios are plausible: Lemore is Ashara and fAegon is her son, probably by Brandon Stark. This is fantastic irony because it would make fAegon the heir to Wintrfell if legitimized, and fill that vaccum (although i think Sansa should get the honour). I don't see the likelihood of Ashara raising some othet mystery baby.

She was Elia's companion and her brother was Rhaegar's closest friend. She was loyal to the Targaryen dynasty.

You don't think she could raise a mystery baby who happened to be her rightful King, the child of her friend and her brother's friend?

Since Jon Con was not part of the plot until fAegon was a small child, he wouldn't question whether the boy was a few months older or younger than Rheagar's son; no one would. It is also plausible that Lemore is party to Varys' lie. A mother will go to great lengths for her child, particularly if she feels he were cheated out of his birth right. The fact that fAegon looks like Rhaegar is also plausible: we know from Barriston that Dany, Rhaegar's sister, reminds him of Ashara. It is possible that both Jon and fAegon would resemble their mothers.

Its possible. It also un-necessarily, complicated, fails to fit the larger storyline and doesn't explain several motivations.

Nevertheless, my hunch is that all of this is a red herring. Its almost too narratively satisfying for GRRM to deliver. Yes eye colour fades; yes, people change, but I think that Tyrion would recognize a faded beauty, at least, in Lemore, if not something of the Daynes.

Tyrion never met Ashara, so there is nothing to recognise. And he certainy sees Lemore as a faded beauty. Ashara also did not have the colouring the Daynes are famous for.

My current theory is that Ashara Dayne is tragically dead. I think that Lemore is Aery's mistress and fArgon is his bastard and therefore Dany (and Rhaegar's) half brother. We know that Aery's fathered other bastards

I don't believe we do know anything of the sort, so source please?

There is suspicion on the Lannister siblings, but thats based in part on a specifically and repeatedly mentioned love interest, not a random unmentioned mistress connection.

Now, I do not doubt that I am wrong, but this is the ?Septa Lemore? thread and the leading theory is Ashara Dayne so I was merely following that through it's logical convolutions. First, Ashara Dayne would have to be alive. Every story we have from, well anyone, is that she threw herself off a cliff after her baby was stillborn.

But we have no witnesses, no one who was present. So no actual data, just hearsay. We also have no body. We also have potential reasons to fake a suicide.

And only one story mentions the stillborn (other sources do not) and even that source does not say it was directly connected to the suicide, just wonders, guessing, if maybe that was one reason. So we have a source who is 60+ remembering distant events that he wasn't present for (therefore has only heard about) and not directly connected with, and wondering if these two events were connected. Even the timing connection he gives isn't reliable (and is vague in the first place) given his distance from the two events in both time and place.

So, if she is Lemore, we can't put any more faith in her baby being dead than we can in her being dead, which is to say none at all. I think those two almost have to go hand in hand, but of course, not necessarily. So expecting the first half of the story to remain true in the face of the falsehood of the second is not satisfactory. Fool me once...

This is not a fair logical connection though, because the two stories are not connected. they are two separate stories, which Barristan wonders if they maybe have a connection. Consequently there is no reason to assume their truthfullness correlates.

Second, if I am following Carbon's timeline of un-accounted-for-babies correctly, Rhaegar and Elias baby boy is the first born and Jon Snow, whether R+L or not, is the last. However, I am pretty sure Jon is 16 in ADWD, or near enough as to make no matter. Tyrion puts (f)Aegon at fifteen or sixteen. Please don't give me the Tyrion is a poor judge of etc., etc. These dang baby boys are all about the same age.

Well, you asked nicely, but I can't do it. The boys are not all the same age, Aegon is a bit over a year older (as would be Ashara's child). We know he is around 18 when Tyrion is guessing he is 15 or 16, and we know that even if he is fake, he would still have to be close to the same age - there is no way that a 3 year old could fool Jon Connington that he was the 5 year old son of the precocious Rhaegar.

Sorry, Tyrion though Jon was 12 when he was 14. He thought fAegon was 16 when he was 18. He guesses Lemore at "at least 40" where, if Ashara, she is probably 38-42. Its a fact, Tyrion is not a good guesser of ages.

No one knows, or at least we don't, how old Jon was when

Ned grabbed him up,

Actually, we know fairly closely. Catelyn believes Jon is younger than Robb, so when the two were first together, only a few months old, Jon cannot have been more than a month or so older than Robb at absolute maximum (and probably slightly younger) because she would have seen immediately if Jon was older. Babies change so much so fast at that very young age you can easily tell if one is several months or more older.

we don't know how long after her baby was stillborn that Ashara took the swan dive. We don't even know when she took the swan dive but I believe it was after learning of Arthur's death (not sure where I got that) so the timeline really doesn't work for Brandon's or Ned's or Harrenhall unless it was quite a while after the stillbirth that she took the plunge.

Yes, quite a while. But there isn't actually any solid connection between her dive and the stillbirth. Just an old man a long way away at the time, many years later, wondering why she did it and wondering if maybe there was a connection there.

F(Aegon) could possibly be Ashara's, but the advantage my "theory" has is that f(Aegon) looks like a Targaryan because he is and Jon Snow looks like a stark because he is.

Thats no advantage. Yours is weaker because it invents a connection we have no hints towards.

fAegon looks like a Targ because he either is (Red or Black), or was specifically selected as te pisswater prince because he looked like Aegon.

Jon looks like a Stark because he is Lyanna Stark's.

Third, Ned can't just tell people Ashara's baby is good to go, his supposed stillbirth is the crux of the whole plot (yeah, I guess this part is a bit thin, but work with me people).

No offense, but I'll work with the text first, and you second. :cool4:

Ned doesn't even apparently know about the stillbirth, Its totally irrelevant to everything. The only person who ever mentions it and who appears to know, is Barristan.

So the upshot is IF Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne, the story of her stillbirth and suicide IS (assuredly) a ruse. Ergo, her baby IS probably (of course not assuredly) alive and must be accounted for. My theory accounts for this without forcing a baby into a role that is a stretch for them to play.

Except that this is a logical fallacy. Two unconnected stories are not required to be correlated truth-wise.

It IS a major issue that Illyro and Varys put the whole (f)Aegon thing together. I hope no one thinks they are in this thing for the Targs, any of them. Their motive, not the one they tell people (c'mon now), their REAL motive, has to jive with who Septa Lemore is and I don't presently see how my theory accounts for that.

Their motive is undoubtedly connected to whomever fAegon is, and thats independent of who Septa Lemore is, even if she is Ashara and believes fAegon to be Aegon.

If anyone has a good theory on how Ashara can be Lemore (except the one where everything is as it seems except her death or that a Stark+Dayne is posing as Aegon Targaryon), I'd like to hear it. I may be wrong, but if you think R+L=J AND Aegon really is Aegon, AND Illyrio and Varys are in it for the Targs, AND Ashara lives but her baby died, then you crazy.

Why crazy?

Everything there fits exactly with all the evidence presented.

I don't know if fAegon is Aegon or not, but if he is, it fits. If he is not, it also fits.

I don't know what I&V's motive is, but thats because it depends on fAegon's true identity. Either way it still fits.

And Ashara and her baby living are totally independent.

It goes like this.

Ashara lost her baby from Harrenhal. There is no child. Nor is there any direct connection with this 'fact' to any of the other things here.

R+L=J

fAegon was spirited out from KL, be he Aegon or Pisswater Prince. I'm not a believer in the Blackfyre theory - its created out of nothingness intially, and every supporting piece of evidence later can fit Aegon (or fAegon of course) just as well.

Ashara faked her suicide to take fAegon to Essos. Later she poses as Septa Lemore.

Everything there has substantial evidence, logical timelines and no real issues. It all fits together very well.

Some people have issues with odd things in it, but I always find those issues irrational when closely examined - things like insisting Varys was lying to Kevin, just because, or or Lemore not having purple eyes, when we don't know that, but do know GRRM is deliberately hiding Lemore's real identity, or that an old man 20 years distance from evencts he only heard about can't be slightly confused about a timing even he puts as vague, or insisting that two different and separate stories must correlate truth-wise.

[AssHat Ahai]

At the risk of arguing for the sake of it, which of course is what I am doing, I will post again and would like to hear corbon's response, but won't be offended if they are through with this.

It goes like this.

Ashara lost her baby from Harrenhal. There is no child. Nor is there any direct connection with this 'fact' to any of the other things here.

R+L=J

fAegon was spirited out from KL, be he Aegon or Pisswater Prince. I'm not a believer in the Blackfyre theory - its created out of nothingness intially, and every supporting piece of evidence later can fit Aegon (or fAegon of course) just as well.

Ashara faked her suicide to take fAegon to Essos. Later she poses as Septa Lemore.

Everything there has substantial evidence, logical timelines and no real issues. It all fits together very well.

Yes, it does fit nicely. It is supposed to. But, that does not preclude other possibilities or elaborations and variations.

Alright, lets examine some of corbon's facts

This is not a fair logical connection though, because the two stories are not connected. they are two separate stories, which Barristan wonders if they maybe have a connection. Consequently there is no reason to assume their truthfullness correlates.

But they are connected, happening to the same person at the same time. I can't prove causation, but you can't argue independence. It is widely accepted that Ashara was pregnant, probably by a Stark, sometime between Harrenhall and her leap, though. No more evidence for a stillbirth than for her suicide to my knowledge. Interstingly, we know Ned showed up at Starfall about this time and I think we both agree (but don't know) that he had a little R+L in tow.

The boys are not all the same age, Aegon is a bit over a year older (as would be Ashara's child). We know he is around 18 when Tyrion is guessing he is 15 or 16, and we know that even if he is fake, he would still have to be close to the same age - there is no way that a 3 year old could fool Jon Connington that he was the 5 year old son of the precocious Rhaegar.

Sorry, Tyrion though Jon was 12 when he was 14. He thought fAegon was 16 when he was 18. He guesses Lemore at "at least 40" where, if Ashara, she is probably 38-42. Its a fact, Tyrion is not a good guesser of ages.

It is known that Aegon could be as old as 18. It is NOT known that (f)Aegon, whose age Tyrion is guessing, is any specific age. It also is not a fact what age range of child could be expected to pass for what age child Connington would be expecting. You can't disparage the age guessing abilities of one astute character while regaling imaginary powers of perception in another, shall we say "less astute", character. Well I guess you can, because you just did.

Actually, we know fairly closely. Catelyn believes Jon is younger than Robb, so when the two were first together, only a few months old, Jon cannot have been more than a month or so older than Robb at absolute maximum (and probably slightly younger) because she would have seen immediately if Jon was older. Babies change so much so fast at that very young age you can easily tell if one is several months or more older.

Several problems with this. You cannot know the age-guessing abilities of an imaginary woman. Further, R+L had to travel from TOJ, to Starfall, back to the North or wherever Catelyn was, so Jon's age would necessarily be more than several months when returned to Winterfell. The point about infant development I will concede.

But there isn't actually any solid connection between her dive and the stillbirth. Just an old man a long way away at the time, many years later, wondering why she did it and wondering if maybe there was a connection there.

How dare you disparage The Bold's cognitive abilities.

Thats no advantage. Yours is weaker because it invents a connection we have no hints towards.

fAegon looks like a Targ because he either is (Red or Black), or was specifically selected as te pisswater prince because he looked like Aegon.

Jon looks like a Stark because he is Lyanna Stark's.

Finally, we get to talk about hints we are given and not boring facts that we know. And we are given hints. The very suggestion that Ashara is still alive disparages the unsubstantiated stillbirth preceeding (triggering?) it. The (f)Aegon is hinted to be too young to be the real deal, but Rhaegarian enough to fool his closest companion. And, how does it serve the R+L=J plot to have Ned with baby R+L go to Starfall at the exact time that Ashara takes the plunge when any number of sources could serve as Jon's fake mom (like the sisterton captain's daughter). And why would Connington and Ashara take Varys' word for anything. They would both be highly skeptical of anything he spirited out of KL. And a Pisswater Prince would have been ferreted out as not Rhaegarian enough by now (which does still leave the real deal possibility and a more remote Blackfyre possibility).

Thanks again for responding everyone.

The Hat

[Greymoon]

I don't have much evidence, but...I believe Lemore is one of Elia's lady in waiting, just not Ashara.

My reasons:

• Ashara left Kingslanding before the sack. A woman present in the Red Keep, a friend of Elia is ideal to 'smuggle' the prince out. Even if said 'smuggling' didn't occur. Varys and Illyrio claim it happened, so they need a pretty good story, one that seems plausible.
  
• A friend of Elia would have a motive for revenge against Lannisters, and Baratheons... Of course this also applies to Ashara...the point here: Ashara was not Elia's only friend/Lady in waiting.
  
• Jon Connington never thinks of Lemore as anything else but Lemore. IMO, that means that whoever Lemore was before, Jon was only vaguely familiar with her. Ashara seems to have been a public face. So I'm guessing on a more discreet and less remarkable person.
  
• Varys and Illyrion do need someone who can in some way underscore their story. So a lady in waiting, who has connections to Elia is a good option, people might remember her from court.
  

So...yes, a lot of these arguments would apply to Ashara, but I think a less well known candidate, would have been a better candidate for the Varys/Illyrio plot. And this candidate being present during the sack, offers them a convenient explanation for the how they smuggled Aegon out. If this woman lost everything during the war - her place at court, possibly family members and all that, then, she might even agreed to lie for them in exchange of being paid handsomely.

Anyway...can someone tell me who Elia's ladies in waiting were?

[Greymoon]

One of the reasons I don't like this Ashara is alive plot, is because it reminds me also, too much of the...what's his name? That knight in Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, from Tad Williams? The one knight who dies in the sea and turns up like 30 years later, and tell the King's brother (King Elias, eh) that he (the knight) had an affair with the queen, and actually fathered Prince Josua.

There plenty of evidence for references to Tad Williams...but that's another topic all together, so I'm not going into details.

However, we already have parallels being drawn between Simon and Jon, so I think...not, I think Martin is purposely referring to Tad William's story, even with the Ashara arc, but he'll twist all the scenarios to fit his own needs, so IMO we can't expect Ashara to suddenly turn up from the dead.

[corbon]

Yes, it does fit nicely. It is supposed to. But, that does not preclude other possibilities or elaborations and variations.

I didn't say it did. I simply responded to your request for a good theory.

Usually the alternatives preclude themselves, by virtue of ridiculous requirements, data errors, failure to address certain aspects or similar reasons. I'm happy to see something coherent that does not fail. IMO I haven't yet.

Alright, lets examine some of corbon's facts

But they are connected, happening to the same person at the same time.

No they are not. They are over a year apart. there is no connection made between them except a literal 'wondering' by Selmy. He doesn't say (think) they are connected, he's trying to think or a reason she might have committed suicided, making guesses, and one of his guesses is maybe it was connected to her lost child. Thats clearly two separate things that a character is wondering if maybe they are connected.

I can't prove causation, but you can't argue independence.

I certainly can. Since they are over a year apart, they are by definition independent as a starting point. You don't lose a child and then commit suicide over a year later out of the blue, at least not normally. Its possible they are connected, but that has yet to be shown. Until it is shown (or even seriously suggested by someone who might know, not just be making a guess from afar), separation is the logical default.

It is widely accepted that Ashara was pregnant, probably by a Stark, sometime between Harrenhall and her leap, though.

Since the only known connection between her and any Stark is at Harrenhal, and Harrenhal is clearly a story focus for the backstory, its widely accepted she got pregnant at Harrenhal. There are zero clues to anything else.

No more evidence for a stillbirth than for her suicide to my knowledge. Interstingly, we know Ned showed up at Starfall about this time and I think we both agree (but don't know) that he had a little R+L in tow.

Less evidence in fact - only one source who clearly is third hand at best.

The difference is though, is that there is not the slightest suggestion anywhere that this evidence is in doubt. therefore we don't have to account for it being wrong for any other theory to work. The default is that it is true, since we have only one source with no reason or motivation to doubt it. That doesn't make it true, but we can't just assume it must be false and therefore have to explain the results of its falseness. As far as I understand, you are basically insisting that any theory that does not take into account this data point being false is therefore flawed. All I'm saying is that that particular construct is falacious, not that there must have been a stillborn child. Any theory that acepts a stillborn child is at least as valid as one that does not, and any theory that incorporates a stillborn child is inherently more flawed because it uses an invented data point that we have no textual clue for.

It is known that Aegon could be as old as 18. It is NOT known that (f)Aegon, whose age Tyrion is guessing, is any specific age. It also is not a fact what age range of child could be expected to pass for what age child Connington would be expecting.

Anyone who has any knowledge of children will just laugh at this.

No 3 year old could pass for a precocious 5 year old, period. And thats the requirement for Tyrion's guess of fAegon's age to be correct.

You can't disparage the age guessing abilities of one astute character while regaling imaginary powers of perception in another, shall we say "less astute", character. Well I guess you can, because you just did.

It has got much less to do with the character as to do with the subjects. The differences between a 12 and 14 year old boy, a 16 and 18 year old boy or a 35 or 45 year old woman can be miniscule, depending on the individuals. Tyrion's 'failures' here are all reasonable, but at the same time establish a literary character pattern. Why on earth else would GRRM include Tyrion guessing Jon's age wrong, and why would an editor not cut that little snippet? the reason is because it sets an important precedent for Tyrion's later errors, which help obscure the identities GRRM is keeping secret at that time.

Howver, the differences between a 3 year old and 5 year old boy are huge, physically, mentally and emotionally. Especially when the 5 year old is supposed to be talented and precocious. A big, bright 3 year old might be confused for a small, slightly backward 5 year old, but not for a talented, smart kid, son of Rhaegar who was always excellent at everything he did and so precocious he astonished the Maesters.

Its simply not feasible.

Several problems with this. You cannot know the age-guessing abilities of an imaginary woman. Further, R+L had to travel from TOJ, to Starfall, back to the North or wherever Catelyn was, so Jon's age would necessarily be more than several months when returned to Winterfell. The point about infant development I will concede.

Its the point about infant development that is the point.

Even more so, exponentially more so, its got nothing to do with Catelyn's abilities and everything to do with how much development occurs for small babies.

Even if it took 6 months for Jon and Robb to be 'joined', there is absolutely no way Catelyn, or anyone else, could believe that 8-9 month old Jon was younger than 6 month old Robb. And that means that we can pin down Jon's absolute age to not more than a month or so older than Robb, and no reason it isn't actually slightly less as Ned says.

How dare you disparage The Bold's cognitive abilities.

Its called disspasionate analysis. We have an old man, in his 60s, thinking about events that he wasn't even involved in and only heard about, 2 decades ago. Its extremely easy for his 'shortly after' to amount to a year or more.

Heck, for something that long ago, even with perfect recall, 'shortly after' is vague enough to mean all sorts of things. Germany invaded Russia 'shortly after' conquering Poland, for example, but that was over a year, nearly two, later. Despite precisely knowin the dates, the statement made is still factually correct put in the right context. As can Barristan's statement, put in the context of 3rd hand events no where near him 20 years ago.

Finally, we get to talk about hints we are given and not boring facts that we know. And we are given hints. The very suggestion that Ashara is still alive disparages the unsubstantiated stillbirth preceeding (triggering?) it.

Except it does not. Her baby and its survival are set over a year before her supposed suicide, making them unconnected so no disparagement results.

The (f)Aegon is hinted to be too young to be the real deal, but Rhaegarian enough to fool his closest companion. And, how does it serve the R+L=J plot to have Ned with baby R+L go to Starfall at the exact time that Ashara takes the plunge when any number of sources could serve as Jon's fake mom (like the sisterton captain's daughter).

It doesn't directly serve R+L=J. But the two separate and different plots overlap and cross each other - they are after all involving the same small set of people (Rhaegar and those around him) within the same timeframe (a mont or two from the sack of KL).

And why would Connington and Ashara take Varys' word for anything. They would both be highly skeptical of anything he spirited out of KL.

Why not? He was a Targaryen loyalist, for all they know. He's someone with the skills, foresight, access and resources to accomplish this. They have a baby/child of the right age with the right features and colouring. It all fits together and it matches their natural desires. And they are the logical people to do the job that is being asked of them, too.

And a Pisswater Prince would have been ferreted out as not Rhaegarian enough by now (which does still leave the real deal possibility and a more remote Blackfyre possibility).

Why? He has the look - we was specifically selected for it remember (and probably a pisswater prince would have some hidden targ blood from an unknown bastard or fallen sub-branch of the family anyway, if you think about it - its not like the Targ famiy tree doesn't have gaps in it, or that no targs ever left known or unknown bastards floating around KL).

And he's had the education, training and mindset of a true Targ instilled into him his whole life. How and why would he be ferreted out?

[Greymoon]

I just want to say this: stretch marks do not in any way equal pregnancy. Tyrion may think so, Martin certainly wants us to believe so, why else, included it? BUT-

How many women have stretch marks without ever having been pregnant? We don’t even know for sure that Lemore was pregnant. And if she was, how many women are pregnant every year? Using that as an argument to claim Lemore = Ashara is at the very least, insufficient

[Korgon The Reaver]

Why does she have to "be someone"?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Why does she have to "be someone"?

IKR she is just a septa, but for some reason every new character has to be someone.

[Mayura]

IKR she is just a septa, but for some reason every new character has to be someone.

As we stated repeatedly, not "every new character has to be someone", GRRM, through Tyrion's eyes, states repeatedly as well that Lemore is not what she seems to be, he wonder "who is she really? is she even a septa?". So that is only natural for readers to guess who she might be :-)

I just want to say this: stretch marks do not in any way equal pregnancy. Tyrion may think so, Martin certainly wants us to believe so, why else, included it? BUT-

How many women have stretch marks without ever having been pregnant? We don’t even know for sure that Lemore was pregnant. And if she was, how many women are pregnant every year? Using that as an argument to claim Lemore = Ashara is at the very least, insufficient

From Tyrion's POV: "she had stretch marks on her belly that could only be explained by childbirth" I think it is made very clear that the specific stretch marks Lemore has come from childbirth. Of course you are allowed to doubt the information given by Tyrion, but I doubt GRRM would take the time to specify "they could only be explained by childbirth" if they were actually random stretch marks. He could just have stopped at "she had stretch marks on her belly". Hence it means the pregnancy of Septa Lemore is a clue GRRM wanted to give.

ETA: by the way, stretch marks appear whenever there is a big weight change. So unless Lemore has been massively big before for eating too many honeyed locusts and then was on a diet, I fail to see how a lot of stretch marks could be explained by anything else than pregnancy. One doesn't get stretch marks without the skin being "stretched".

[Greymoon]

ETA: by the way, stretch marks appear whenever there is a big weight change. So unless Lemore has been massively big before for eating too many honeyed locusts and then was on a diet, I fail to see how a lot of stretch marks could be explained by anything else than pregnancy. One doesn't get stretch marks without the skin being "stretched".

Not so, stretch marks can appear without a big weight change or pregnancy. During adolescence, when one gains height for example. Some people's skin is just generally not elastic. Anyway, that's besides the point.

[corbon]

I just want to say this: stretch marks do not in any way equal pregnancy. Tyrion may think so, Martin certainly wants us to believe so, why else, included it? BUT-

How many women have stretch marks without ever having been pregnant? We don’t even know for sure that Lemore was pregnant. And if she was, how many women are pregnant every year? Using that as an argument to claim Lemore = Ashara is at the very least, insufficient

Ahh yes, lets just twist the text (which explicitly judges them to be from pregnancy) into something extremely unlikely (how common are stretch marks that are not from pregnancy, especially on a fit and healthy woman in a society that does not have McDonalds), and ignore all the other bits of evidence. Good job that.

Its not a defining point. Its one of a very large number of supporting points that all add up collectively, not individually.

[Mayura]

Ahh yes, lets just twist the text (which explicitly judges them to be from pregnancy) into something extremely unlikely (how common are stretch marks that are not from pregnancy, especially on a fit and healthy woman in a society that does not have McDonalds), and ignore all the other bits of evidence. Good job that.

Its not a defining point. Its one of a very large number of supporting points that all add up collectively, not individually.

:agree:

We won't know who Lemore really is before GRRM says it anyway. But the suspicions about Lemore = AD are not based solely on Lemore's "probable" pregnancy.

I also think that, when the author gives such precise description as "could only have been caused by pregnancy", there is no real reason to doubt what he is writing. What would be the point of making us believe Lemore has been pregnant at least once if she hasn't really been?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Why does she have to "be someone"?

I never understood why this happens

[Greymoon]

Ahh yes, lets just twist the text (which explicitly judges them to be from pregnancy) into something extremely unlikely (how common are stretch marks that are not from pregnancy, especially on a fit and healthy woman in a society that does not have McDonalds), and ignore all the other bits of evidence. Good job that.

Its not a defining point. Its one of a very large number of supporting points that all add up collectively, not individually.

Saying that it doesn't happen to healthy, never been fat or never been pregnant women, is really naive...

Twist the text, alright, I give you that. I didn't check the chapter before I posted. Sorry. Though honestly, this is a forum, not the Spanish inquisition. The main point here is that Lemore having stretchmarks does not mean she must be Ashara, or any other formerly pregnant woman we know of. And I did say, the argument is insufficient. Speak about twisting things.

[corbon]

Why does she have to "be someone"?

Please read the thread, this precise question been explicitly answered several times....

IKR she is just a septa, but for some reason every new character has to be someone.

Given that you've explicitly asked this, after it was already asked and already answered, and you were explicitly answered directly, and it has been answered again and again ... what conclusion should we come to about your purpose here?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Please read the thread, this precise question been explicitly answered several times....

Given that you've explicitly asked this, after it was already asked and already answered, and you were explicitly answered directly, and it has been answered again and again ... what conclusion should we come to about your purpose here?

Yea a secret that she gave birth while being a septa nothing more. <_< Not that she is AD

[corbon]

I have never understood why this happens

What? Why people keep asking the same stupid question after its been repeatedly answered and even had the textual references quoted?

Or you agree, and really don't understand why people supsect Lemore is not just Lemore?

If the second, read ADwD again (I know you know this stuff fairly well, but this really is a lame question to be asking) or just read this thread where its been repeatedly explained!

Saying that it doesn't happen to healthy, never been fat or never been pregnant women, is really naive...

No one said that it doesn't happen. Just that compared to pregnancy its really rare.

Twist the text, alright, I give you that. I didn't check the chapter before I posted. Sorry. Though honestly, this is a forum, not the Spanish inquisition.

No problem, we all make little errors from time to time. Its the general flow of the post I really have issue with - the implication that this tiny little supporting piece of evidence doesn;t prove anything on its own, and we should therefore throw the whole case out - because thats what came across.

The main point here is that Lemore having stretchmarks does not mean she must be Ashara, or any other formerly pregnant woman we know of. And I did say, the argument is insufficient. Speak about twisting things.

Guilty as charged, perhaps, though its then a meaningless point you made, since no one has ever claimed it was sufficient proof on its own. But I still stand by the gist of the post and have no respect at all for what your post suggested. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, if so, sorry.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

What? Why people keep asking the same stupid question after its been repeatedly answered and even had the textual references quoted?

Or you agree, and really don't understand why people supsect Lemore is not just Lemore?

If the second, read ADwD again (I know you know this stuff fairly well, but this really is a lame question to be asking) or just read this thread where its been repeatedly explained!

and none of those *explanations* are good enough for me. I expect something more than Tyrion's thoughts or the Lady title. I know I might be wrong but this is what I think.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

and none of those *explanations* are good enough for me. I expect something more than Tyrion's thoughts or the Lady title. I know I might be wrong but this is what I think.

:agree:

[corbon]

and none of those *explanations* are good enough for me. I expect something more than Tyrion's thoughts or the Lady title. I know I might be wrong but this is what I think.

Seriously? :stunned:

Tyrion picks up she has secrets, Jon Con clearly knows she is not just a Septa, but is in fact a Lady, and she explicitly tells JonCon that he is not the only one with an identity to hide, with the contextual implication that she is also hiding an identity, and your response is effectively "nothing to see here, move along"?

Who are you and what have you done to Jon's Queen Consort!?

More to the point, its not that you don't necessarily believe it yourself, but that you can't understand why anyone else might have some suspicions?