Septa Lemore is?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

This made me :lmao: and :crying:

WOW i thought that was a real spoiler

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Why does everyone want Lemore to be someone?

[King of Winters]

This made me :lmao: and :crying:

Oh, how JQC can toy with people :P

[King of Winters]

Why does everyone want Lemore to be someone?

I think it's because she seems mysterious and people want her to have a secret identity because they might not want her to simply be a Septa.

[Maidenpool?]

Aegon is dumped at Starfall by Varys, Targ loyalists the Daynes agree to raise him until plans are ready to roll is Essos

Ashara agrees with Varys to fake her death and bring Aegon to Essos

She fakes her death, but brings her son (by way of Brandon Stark at Harrenhall) to Essos instead

Aegon is left at Starfall, becomes Darkstar

BOOM

I need a shower

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I think it's because she seems mysterious and people want her to have a secret identity because they might not want her to simply be a Septa.

Thats the case for almost all new character, I think she is just a septa :blushing:

[corbon]

And still, they are very noticeable. It's very hard to find a description of her that doesn't mention the eyes. It's in the first paragraph of her wikipedia entry, and when you write "elizabeth ttaylor" on Google, "eyes" is the first suggestion.

...

Continuing with the Taylor example: I can't imagine anyone describing her at any point of her life without mentioning her striking eyes.

...

And I still think that failing to mention the most remarkable thing about a person would not be natural. Just as it wouldn't be not natural mentioning the greyscale or the blue beard if Shireen or Daario had been on the boat.

...

Yes, this is all agreed.

The point with Elizabeth Taylor, is that she is infinitely more famous for her eyes than anyone. People who've never seen her image know about her violet eyes. She almost never gets a mention with her violet eyes also getting a mention.

Yet most of the time, unless she is dressed, or lit, or acccessorized, to accentuate it, her eyes don't look purple at all.

So if you'd never seen her image, and she wasn't set up to show off the violet colouring (and glitz and glamour etc), you'd walk past her in the street perhaps thinking "she's got nice eyes" but not thinking they were violet. And not thinking you'd just walked past THE Elizabeth Taylor.

It's not that the eyes looked beautiful and that they may look sad now after a life of hardships. It's that they are purple. Eye color does not change in adult woman. This is an uncommon, distinctive trait that would stand out regardless of her mood.

Except that GRRM has explicitly made it not always distinctive.

When the mood is right and the grooming is right, they can be, and obviously are, amazing. But when the mood and oare different, and 20 years have past, they may not necessarily be stunning. You (and many others) seem to have this fixed idea of purple eyes as unchanging glowing amethysts or something. But thats not what reality is like and its not what GRRM written.

See below.

Your rationale is that her eyes are not mentioned so they must be important. I think the opposite: if they are not mentioned, they are not significant at all.

Then why are eyes mentioned for so many other insignificant characters?

Yet here, in a character with a mysterious past and several hints that its an important past, and a huge future potential (in multiple ways) in a theoretically critical role, and her eyes, less than just about any other character in the books, are just not significant enough to rate a mention?

That simply doesn't gel.

If Tyrion commonly ommitted eye colour in descriptins, then it would gel, but he is very observant and very consistent. Except this once.

Honestly, I can't see GRRM including a reference to Ashara's eyes in all her descriptions and then make her appear in disguise without mentioning her eyes. I would consider it a very badly constructed turn of events, and after years of reading GRRM's works I've never found examples of such bad writing even in his early writings. But if you think that this wouldn't be "cheating the reader" and that this would be a legitimate way of presenting a surprise, probably we should just leave it here and agree to disagree.

Yes, I'd consider it one of the weakest things in the series so far. But honestly, what choice does he have if she is Ashara (and so many other things come together here)? If Lemore was written with purple eyes it would immediately be a huge flag to both Tyrion and readers. Yet GRRM went to great lengths to keep Lemore=Ashara initially hidden. When we met Lemore, we saw an attractive 40+ common woman with dark hair and stretchmarks. What we knew of Ashara at that stage was that she was fair, had amazing purple eyes, and suicided 20 years ago in something probably to do with Ned and Jon (but thats clearly a red herring by now and so we'd never heard of her having a baby). So our image is utterly opposite - a blonde, beautiful, young, maiden, noblewoman - who would think she could be this middle aged dark haired ex-mother commoner?

Later we find out Ashara was dark haired, not blonde. And apparently had a still born baby. And that Lemore is actually noble...

All that obfuscation would be pointless if Lemore was written with purple eyes. Or green eyes, or brown eyes, or any colour that can't be purple.

But instead she's written wih eye colour entirely ommitted, something GRRM rarely does.

I'm not following you here. Hair dyes and colored contact lenses are technologies centuries apart. Not sure what you mean with "other characters", but we've found no character in the books that has changed his eye color as a disguise. The Daynes and the Targaryens are not related.

:bang:

Hello? Young Griff? Changed his eye colour from purple to blue by dying his hair! Unless you look really closely.

Darkstar is described as having black eyes, but Arriane tells us that up close they are not black, they are dark purple.

John Snow has grey eyes that sometimes look black (incidentally both colours that morph easily into purple - not that I am suggesting he has purple eyes!) - his eye colour changes.

There are other examples I am sure...

Purple eyes can be, and explicitly are in several cases, mistaken as black, grey or blue, depending on various factors.

Its true in reality, and its true in GRRMs textual references.

And also I've just looked on The Citadel and the ages wouldn't match up. Ashara is about Ned's age, give or take a year. And Ned was in his mid-thirties at the start of the series. So 40 is older than Ashara would be now.

i) About Ned's age, give or take up to 5 years. At Harrenhal she was a courtier companion to Princess Elia, who already had a baby and was in her early twenties. Which means Asharra would likely be around 20-22 - Elia would surely want a slightly more capable companion of a similar age bracket rather than an inexperienced woman-child, and a very young Asharra would be less likely to be allowed to live at court without her family (yes Arthur is around, but he has a job to do, not chaperone his baby sister). Ned was 18. And if Ned lived now he'd be 37-38. So our best guess for Asharra now would put her almost exactly at 40.

ii) Lemore's age is a guess by Tyrion. Who is notably bad at guessing ages so far (0-2). And worse, is a man guessing a middle aged woman's age. You know that thing that is famously impossible to get right?

So lets put those two things together. Ashara is probably around or just under 40, almost certainly not less than 36 (that would have put her at 16ish at Harrenhal, where she was dancing with all those older men (and the Viper, who'd already killed a man in a duel over a woman). Tyrion's guess, must have some leeway so 35-55, say.

Its a perfect fit.

Objections to Ashara-Lemore based on age are ... well, ridiculous, once examined.

Quite a few of those qualities might apply to Lyanna Stark if she faked her death. Anyway it's not that crackpot is it? :o

Septa Lemore = Lyanna Stark?

Yes, utterly, ridiculousy, crackpot.

We've been inside Ned's head as he remembered Lyanna dying in his arms.

Why does everyone want Lemore to be someone?

I think it's because she seems mysterious and people want her to have a secret identity because they might not want her to simply be a Septa.

Thats the case for almost all new character, I think she is just a septa :blushing:

This was explicitly asked and explicitly answered earlier in the thread.

If she's just a Septa, GRRM has a Chekov's arsenal floating around.

[Valya of Myr]

Lyanna? Is there a theory about this?

she couldn't be Lemore, Lyanna was born in 267 AL, she'd be like 33, not 40.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

This made me :lmao: and :crying:

Oh, how JQC can toy with people :P

Ι live to serve good sirs!

[finger]

GRRM will offer us puzzles and clues to solve them.

First, he shows us so strange a death for Ashara Dayne taht it makes us think she's not dead, but fled.

Then, there's the stupid carnage on a baby who was to be shown so that everybody could see that the legar heir was dead. it's obvious to think it's a fake.

Elia and Rhaegar being dead, while Aegon and Ashara are missing, an immediate assumption is they are together.

So when a mature woman and a teenager boy appear 15 years later, we are prompted to think that YG is Aegon and SL is AD. But then there's the clue to discover the decoy. AD is of an age with Cersei or some younger, and it's most dificult that a sharp man as Tyrion reckons she's 7 or 8 years older. IMO this is a clue to see that YG is a fake, not Aegon.

This leaves two questions open:

Who is Septa Lemore? Some lady partisan of Targaryens. She can have an interesting story, but unrelated with Aegon, I guess.

Where are AD and Aegon? I'm not sure. I guess they have something to do with Qaithe and Asshai. In fact, Quaithe could be Ashara. She's had 15 years to learn Asshaii tricks. Merwyn's trip to Asshai could also be related. We are not told when it was, IIRC, but MMD recalls to had met him there long ago.

[TheRainingKnight]

Wylla?

[WildBlood]

I think it's because she seems mysterious and people want her to have a secret identity because they might not want her to simply be a Septa.

They want her to be a secret targ warged by bloodraven :bang:

[Mayura]

Whether it's a red herring or not, GRRM has set every clue for the readers to speculate Lemore might be AD. First Griff turns out to be Jon Connington, who faked his death, then there is Young Griff who turns out to be Aegon, whose death was faked by Varys if we believe the baby swapping story. Then the other significant characters traveling with them is Septa "Lady" Lemore, who conveniently shows common features with AD as described throughout the books and could be a very interesting narrative switch for the 3 main "Targaryens" of the story: Jon, Daenerys (through Barristan Selmy) and Aegon.

I don't think it is stupid or far-streched or "wanting Lemore to be someone because lolz secret Targ", this is, IMO, kind of logical to speculate about the identity of that character knowing that she follows a very important character (Aegon) and is among a company of ex-Westerosi elite who faked their identities (aka JonCon and Aegon).

If Lemore just turns out to be Lemore, it is also perfectly fine. But there IS ground for speculation :)

About Lemore's eyes: I've read someone was referring to Elizabeth Taylor and, yes, I agree with that post: Liz Taylor was said to have stunning violet eyes... Hence the people who knew she was Liz Taylor would look at her eyes and be in awe. But in fact, her eyes were not violet at all, they could appear violet under a certain light. And there are mentions of people not knowing they were dealing with THE Liz and not noticing her eyes. I think it might be the same with Lemore if she is AD. In addition, if GGRM was to reveal Lemore's eyes color through Tyrion right away, it would mean he would be giving away some clues to work for or against this theory. To me, the fact that GRRM doesn't make Tyrion notice Lemore's eyes is totally on purpose.

Anyway, whoever Lemore is, I think Lemore = AD makes most sense of all of the theories. But I wouldn't be bothered if she was "just Lemore" at all.

[King of Winters]

Whether it's a red herring or not, GRRM has set every clue for the readers to speculate Lemore might be AD. First Griff turns out to be Jon Connington, who faked his death, then there is Young Griff who turns out to be Aegon, whose death was faked by Varys if we believe the baby swapping story. Then the other significant characters traveling with them is Septa "Lady" Lemore, who conveniently shows common features with AD as described throughout the books and could be a very interesting narrative switch for the 3 main "Targaryens" of the story: Jon, Daenerys (through Barristan Selmy) and Aegon.

I don't think it is stupid or far-streched or "wanting Lemore to be someone because lolz secret Targ", this is, IMO, kind of logical to speculate about the identity of that character knowing that she follows a very important character (Aegon) and is among a company of ex-Westerosi elite who faked their identities (aka JonCon and Aegon).

If Lemore just turns out to be Lemore, it is also perfectly fine. But there IS ground for speculation :)

About Lemore's eyes: I've read someone was referring to Elizabeth Taylor and, yes, I agree with that post: Liz Taylor was said to have stunning violet eyes... Hence the people who knew she was Liz Taylor would look at her eyes and be in awe. But in fact, her eyes were not violet at all, they could appear violet under a certain light. And there are mentions of people not knowing they were dealing with THE Liz and not noticing her eyes. I think it might be the same with Lemore if she is AD. In addition, if GGRM was to reveal Lemore's eyes color through Tyrion right away, it would mean he would be giving away some clues to work for or against this theory. To me, the fact that GRRM doesn't make Tyrion notice Lemore's eyes is totally on purpose.

Anyway, whoever Lemore is, I think Lemore = AD makes most sense of all of the theories. But I wouldn't be bothered if she was "just Lemore" at all.

JonConn didn't fake his death alone. Varys came up with the plan he'd tell Robert and the Small Council Jon had died drinking too much, as nobody remembers cravens and drunks. If it wasn't for Varys saying that then JonConn would still be known to them and possibly watched.

But you have to remember that Aegon supposedly surviving and his death faked is partly inspired by real life events during Henry VII's reign. The story is that there were people still loyal to Edward IV, and used a boy, who was raised to believe he was Edward's lost nephew, smuggled out of the Tower of London, to raise an army to defeat Henry. For more info on this I done a topic on this called The Winter King, rebels and (F)Aegon.

And I can't believe that if Ashara is Lemore, GRRM wouldn't have Tyrion notice her eyes. Cat says that Ashara's eyes were "haunting violet eyes", and she hasn't even seen Ashara, so her eyes are known by many who are old enough to remember her. If her eyes are described as "haunting" by someone who hasn't seen Ashara's eyes, then I doubt Tyrion wouldn't notice those eyes.

(Sorry if it seems like I keep going on at you).

[Citadel_acolyte]

Wylla?

I have thought this too, but if Lemore has been with fAegon since birth, she would not have been around at Starfall to serve as wetnurse to Edric Dayne if she were Wylla.

As I see it, there is an argument to be made that Lemore is AD:

Tyrion drops some clues that he doesn't think Lemore has been a septa all her life: she has stretch-marks from pregnancy and she is too forthright and, for lack of a better word, immodest (both qualities that are seen in Dornish women, though not perhaps in the highborn women from the rest of Westeros). I will have to go back and reread the passage.

I don't think the fact that Tyrion describes her as a woman around 40 would discount Ashara. Ned was 35 at the start of the series and would be 37 or 38, I think, by this point in the series. That's definitely closer to 40 than 30.

Further, If she is dressed as a Septa most of the time, would her eyes not be somewhat hidden by the nun-like habit? When she emerges naked from the water, would Tyrion not be distracted by her other parts as his own POV indicates?

However:

Since Tyrion is suspicious of her identity from the start, I think he would make it his business to study her face and I fail to see how he wouldn't notice her eyes if they were as striking as Ashara's. I can't put my finger on it, but her behaviour also just doesn't mesh with (admittedly my own idea of) the woman who managed to hold Eddard, Brandon and Barriston Selmy in thrall.

Having entertained several increasingly outlandish theories myself, I currently I think that Aegon may indeed be Aerys's bastard (I keep coming back to that scene in AFfC where Cersei runs into another Targ looking young man and concludes that he must be one of the mad king's bastards.) We also know that Aery's was barely having marital relations with Rhaella at the time when they conceived Dany, but there is nothing to indicate that he wasn't sleeping with someone else. I therefore think that Lemore is actually fAegon's mother. This makes the most sense geographically since Varys would have known of the king's philandering and would have easily been able to get his hands on Lemore and fAegon to pull off the ruse if they were close to hand in King's Landing.

I don't think she necessarily has a special identity other than the fact that she is the mother of fAegon and not really a septa.

Edited for clarity of expression

[Mayura]

I have thought this too, but if Lemore has been with fAegon since birth, she would not have been around at Starfall to serve as wetnurse to Edric Dayne if she were Wylla.

As I see it, there is an argument to be made that Lemore is AD:

Tyrion drops some clues that he doesn't think Lemore has been a septa all her life: she has stretch-marks from pregnancy and she is too forthright and, for lack of a better word, immodest (both qualities that are seen in Dornish women, though not perhaps in the highborn women from the rest of Westeros). I will have to go back and reread the passage.

I don't think the fact that Tyrion describes her as a woman around 40 would discount Ashara. Ned was 35 at the start of the series and would be 37 or 38, I think, by this point in the series. That's definitely closer to 40 than 30.

Further, If she is dressed as a Septa most of the time, would her eyes not be somewhat hidden by the nun-like habit? When she emerges naked from the water, would Tyrion not be distracted by her other parts as his own POV indicates?

However:

Since Tyrion is suspicious of her identity from the start, I think he would make it his business to study her face and I fail to see how he wouldn't notice her eyes if they were as striking as Ashara's. I can't put my finger on it, but her behaviour also just doesn't mesh with (admittedly my own idea of) the woman who managed to hold Eddard, Brandon and Barriston Selmy in thrall.

Having entertained several increasingly outlandish theories myself, I currently I think that Aegon may indeed be Aerys's bastard (I keep coming back to that scene in AFfC where Cersei runs into another Targ looking young man and concludes that he must be one of the mad king's bastards.) We also know that Aery's was barely having marital relations with Rhaella at the time when they conceived Dany, but there is nothing to indicate that he wasn't sleeping with someone else. I therefore think that Lemore is actually fAegon's mother. This makes the most sense geographically since Varys would have known of the king's philandering and would have easily been able to get his hands on Lemore and fAegon to pull off the ruse if they were close to hand in King's Landing.

I don't think she necessarily has a special identity other than the fact that she is the mother of fAegon and not really a septa.

Edited for clarity of expression

That would make sense as well imo. If Lemore is nobody, however, which is also highly possible, then yes, there is a possibility she'd be fAegon's mother.

But I dont think she would be of any use to the story at all, then. Why would Varys and Illyrio take the risk to let a nobody who know Aegon is not Aegon hanging around the boy and people who could force that information out of her? For Varys's plan to work, if Aegon is fake, he needs to make sure (nearly) everyone believes Aegon is the real deal. Having the mom of the boy, who's meant to go though some battles to conquer the throne, and who can also reveal at any moment she is Aegon's mom and make the whole plan fail is, in my opinion, a very unnecessary risk to take. If Lemore is Aegon's mom, she will be a huge inconvenience and I don't think Varys has a place for that in his plan.

@King of the Starks: no problem at all, we're here to discuss ;) I see your point but what i mean about Ashara's eyes is that Cat, who has never seen her, says that she has "haunting violet eyes". But in fact, Catelyn doesn't know what Ashara looks like. It might indeed be that, when Ashara is all pimped up in beautiful dresses, make up and beautiful hair, it makes her hair come out as violet (like GRRM states that Cersei sometimes desses in a way that make her green eyes come out). But maybe her eyes would actually not appear "violet" to someone who is meeting her in her most simple self. If I remember correctly, we hear about Ashara Dayne through the voice of two characters who have never seen her (Catelyn Stark and Meera Reed) and one who was in love with her (Barristan Selmy) and who would obviously find her very attractive. selmy is also suspected to be an ureliable narrator, so who knows...

To me, the fact JonCon didn't fake his death alone is irrelevant as, if Lemore is indeed Ashara, Varys was obviously behind her own "fake death" as well as he needed someone to take care of (f)Aegon. There is no point for her to fake her death at all if she hasn't been made aware of the big Aegon plan.

As to Aegon being fake or real, I don't think it matters to the story at all. What makes me think Lemore is someone useful is the fact that, as one of the members of the GC says, Aegon's claim is going to be challenged in Westeros. Hence, the more people from Rhaegar/Elia's entourage Varys manage to gather around (f)Aegon, the easier it will be to convince westerosi he is indeed Aegon (even if he is absolutely not Aegon). Hence, imo, Aegon being real or fake doesn't prevent Lemore from being Ashara as that character would be useful to support Aegon's identity. In addition, as her death coincides with Aegon's supposed smuggling, it is at least not too far stretched to think Lemore might be Ashara. Whether it's a red herring or not, I think it was intended by GRRM.

About the historical characters you're referring to, if you're talking about Warbeck pretending to be the son of Edward IV, if my memory is good he only decided to pass as a pretender to the throne (when asked by loyalists) when he was a teenager/young adult. Hence making the situation different than the one of Aegon's: whether he is fake or not, he has been raised to believe he is the rightful heir and Rhaegar's son, he isn't pretending.

I think another historical event "close" to what is happening with (F)Aegon in the books is, IMO, is the story of James Stuart (father of Bonnie Prince Charlie) who was said to be a fake, an impostor baby smuggled into the chambers by people who believed the regents's real baby was stillborn. Hence the identity of James was questionned throughout his life while everything points towards him being the real deal :) if you have a link to your interesting-sounding thread, I'll take it with great pleasure!

[King of Winters]

@King of the Starks: no problem at all, we're here to discuss ;) I see your point but what i mean about Ashara's eyes is that Cat, who has never seen her, says that she has "haunting violet eyes". But in fact, Catelyn doesn't know what Ashara looks like. It might indeed be that, when Ashara is all pimped up in beautiful dresses, make up and beautiful hair, it makes her hair come out as violet (like GRRM states that Cersei sometimes desses in a way that make her green eyes come out). But maybe her eyes would actually not appear "violet" to someone who is meeting her in her most simple self. If I remember correctly, we hear about Ashara Dayne through the voice of two characters who have never seen her (Catelyn Stark and Meera Reed) and one who was in love with her (Barristan Selmy) and who would obviously find her very attractive. selmy is also suspected to be an ureliable narrator, so who knows...

To me, the fact JonCon didn't fake his death alone is irrelevant as, if Lemore is indeed Ashara, Varys was obviously behind her own "fake death" as well as he needed someone to take care of (f)Aegon. There is no point for her to fake her death at all if she hasn't been made aware of the big Aegon plan.

As to Aegon being fake or real, I don't think it matters to the story at all. What makes me think Lemore is someone useful is the fact that, as one of the members of the GC says, Aegon's claim is going to be challenged in Westeros. Hence, the more people from Rhaegar/Elia's entourage Varys manage to gather around (f)Aegon, the easier it will be to convince westerosi he is indeed Aegon (even if he is absolutely not Aegon). Hence, imo, Aegon being real or fake doesn't prevent Lemore from being Ashara as that character would be useful to support Aegon's identity. In addition, as her death coincides with Aegon's supposed smuggling, it is at least not too far stretched to think Lemore might be Ashara. Whether it's a red herring or not, I think it was intended by GRRM.

About the historical characters you're referring to, if you're talking about Warbeck pretending to be the son of Edward IV, if my memory is good he only decided to pass as a pretender to the throne (when asked by loyalists) when he was a teenager/young adult. Hence making the situation different than the one of Aegon's: whether he is fake or not, he has been raised to believe he is the rightful heir and Rhaegar's son, he isn't pretending.

I think another historical event "close" to what is happening with (F)Aegon in the books is, IMO, is the story of James Stuart (father of Bonnie Prince Charlie) who was said to be a fake, an impostor baby smuggled into the chambers by people who believed the regents's real baby was stillborn. Hence the identity of James was questionned throughout his life while everything points towards him being the real deal :) if you have a link to your interesting-sounding thread, I'll take it with great pleasure!

This is one time I think Ser Barristan isn't an unreliable narrator. He loved, or still loves, Ashara, so he'd remember her face well and the most attractive part of her face, her violet eyes. He also danced with her at Harrenhal, as I think he was the "white sword" who danced with her.

Actually Ashara didn't supposedly die until some time after The Sack, and Aegon's supposed switch. Jon was born within one month of The Sack, and Ned didn't get to Starfall until after he'd lifted the Siege of Storm's End, and went to the Tower of Joy; and pulled it down and buried the dead. So Ashara's death happened over a month after The Sack.

Also if Aegon was really switched then by that time he'd be with Illyrio, with Varys, and JonConn would have been with the Golden Company.

And about my thread, I looked for it but I just can't find it. I don't know if it's to do with the way the Search function works, but I can't find it. Sorry.

If you want to know where I got the base for it, Henry VII's wiki article has a paragraph about durning his reign, so you might want to look at that. It's the section called "Reign" and is the forth paragraph up, about Lambert Simnel.

[Mayura]

This is one time I think Ser Barristan isn't an unreliable narrator. He loved, or still loves, Ashara, so he'd remember her face well and the most attractive part of her face, her violet eyes. He also danced with her at Harrenhal, as I think he was the "white sword" who danced with her.

Actually Ashara didn't supposedly die until some time after The Sack, and Aegon's supposed switch. Jon was born within one month of The Sack, and Ned didn't get to Starfall until after he'd lifted the Siege of Storm's End, and went to the Tower of Joy; and pulled it down and buried the dead. So Ashara's death happened over a month after The Sack.

Also if Aegon was really switched then by that time he'd be with Illyrio, with Varys, and JonConn would have been with the Golden Company.

And about my thread, I looked for it but I just can't find it. I don't know if it's to do with the way the Search function works, but I can't find it. Sorry.

If you want to know where I got the base for it, Henry VII's wiki article has a paragraph about durning his reign, so you might want to look at that.

Thank you! I though my own search function wasn't working, i'll check tomorrow, maybe I'll find your thread, it does sound interesting!

Well it doesn't technically matter if Ashara "faked her death" (or was asked to) at the exact same time than Aegon's smuggling, my point is just that she "died" at a strangely convenient time. I don't think that, if AD = Lemore, Varys took the time to travel to Starfall with an infant baby to ask for her help. More likely, he smuggled the baby (if there was a baby to smuggle at all) to illyrio's manse first and only then started thinking about gathering Aegon's team. Ashara first and the JonCon.

It is of course pure speculation but her character being alive offers so many narrative possibilities that I kind of hope Lemore is AD

[NoneofYourBiz]

I think it's because she seems mysterious and people want her to have a secret identity because they might not want her to simply be a Septa.

Not really. I think it's because there are multiple instances in the text to indicate that the Septa has a secret. GRRM pretty much clobbers you with it.

[King of Winters]

Thank you! I though my own search function wasn't working, i'll check tomorrow, maybe I'll find your thread, it does sound interesting!

Well it doesn't technically matter if Ashara "faked her death" (or was asked to) at the exact same time than Aegon's smuggling, my point is just that she "died" at a strangely convenient time. I don't think that, if AD = Lemore, Varys took the time to travel to Starfall with an infant baby to ask for her help. More likely, he smuggled the baby (if there was a baby to smuggle at all) to illyrio's manse first and only then started thinking about gathering Aegon's team. Ashara first and the JonCon.

It is of course pure speculation but her character being alive offers so many narrative possibilities that I kind of hope Lemore is AD

I'm glad to know its not only me with the different Search function. It just searches for the keywords in different topics rather than showing you the topic you want.

If Ashara was in on it as well, then she'd have to know first of all. And I doubt Aerys let Varys leave KL in such a chaotic time.

And yeah it's just pure speculation that Ashara is alive. If she is then I like the Howland + Ashara theory best.