Why was Rhaegar revered?

[Nami]

Rhaegar could be the typical case of:

Die young and famous, and people will love and remember you forever

[JeepCSC]

Fine, Rhaegar lied to everyone about his intentions for reasons his own, and then failed to do anything over the next few months as Aerys first arrested Brandon and company and then murdered Lord Rickard et al. Ask forgiveness later, pah. He did what he wanted and didn't think he had to answer for his actions, all the while Westeros burned. He is pretty much the villain of the piece in my eyes, and not fun evil like Cersei, but lame evil. I mean starting a civil war because you wanted to complete a prophecy and then not bothering to check in with, well, anyone as chaos descends either out of ignorance or uncaring or whatever. Ineptitude for anyone, disaster for the crown prince.

[Nami]

Fine, Rhaegar lied to everyone about his intentions for reasons his own, and then failed to do anything over the next few months as Aerys first arrested Brandon and company and then murdered Lord Rickard et al. Ask forgiveness later, pah. He did what he wanted and didn't think he had to answer for his actions, all the while Westeros burned. He is pretty much the villain of the piece in my eyes, and not fun evil like Cersei, but lame evil. I mean starting a civil war because you wanted to complete a prophecy and then not bothering to check in with, well, anyone as chaos descends either out of ignorance or uncaring or whatever. Ineptitude for anyone, disaster for the crown prince.

Oh man, I must have missed Rhaegar's POV.

[PrimeRhaegar]

one cannot be best friends with ser arthur motherfucking dayne and not be awesome.

Still we don't know man since we don't have much on rhaegar's back ground, but he obviously was doing something right other than relying on his looks and charm, hell aerion brightflame had those and was hated. The guy got more praise than tywin lannister in the westerlands which he is feared in and was known to be running the kingdom. So he must have done alot to earn such renowned praise over westeros.

[JeepCSC]

Oh, perhaps I overstated things. Rhaegar was not into prophecy and he did tell the whole world of what he was planning. That's the ticket.

I already gave Rhaegar the benefit of the doubt on all the grey areas of the story. I condemn him on what we think we know. If Grrm changes what we know, well, that changes things. As of now we have a crown prince who took a daughter of a lord without expressing his reason, and then failing to stay in the loop on Westeros affairs as the country plunged to war. If we learn new information that destroys those two central points, we can revisit this. Until then, Rhaegar appears to be battling no one for worst decision-maker in ASOIAF. Dany's Mereen decision looks like a stroke of genius in comparison.

[Nami]

one cannot be best friends with ser arthur motherfucking dayne and not be awesome.

Still we don't know man since we don't have much on rhaegar's back ground, but he obviously was doing something right other than relying on his looks and charm, hell aerion brightflame had those and was hated. The guy got more praise than tywin lannister in the westerlands which he is feared in and was known to be running the kingdom. So he must have done alot to earn such renowned praise over westeros.

Maybe he did charity work in the flea bottom

[Ludd]

Remember we actually do NOT know what Rhaegar did.

We know he crowned Lyannna QoLB and Harrenhall, and that presumably he loved her.

We know Lyanna was not overly wrapped in Robert

We know that Lyanna disappeared shortly after Harrenhall but we do NOT know with whom - we just guess

We know than Brandon Stark and Robert Baratheon believed that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna but we do not know if this is true or not. Who told them - Littlefinger?, Aerys?, Varys?

We know that Lyanna died at the ToJ, protected by the Kingsguard. Clearly this implicates the Royal family Aerys OR Rhaegar but we do not know which.

We are told that Rhaegar died at the Trident, but with red rubies floating around as glamours of different kinds I am cautious about even that

[The Frosted King]

THe official version 14 years later tells nothing about what Rickard or Brandon thought or knew.

Dorne was pissed alright but nowhere on the verge of rebellion. As for Elia, there is no information on what she knew or thought, and as for the children, there were still his two dragon heads, i.e. not disinherited or removed from the line of succession or anything like that,

"Damage" or "bad things" do not automatically equal to an all-out war. It's not like the Targs didn't have high-born mistresses before; given Lyanna's status, a political shitstorm could have been expected, but nothing that lands or titles wouldn't appease.

Robb's powerbase and reputation was several levels below Rhaegar's, and he wasn't from a family that got a pass for polygamy in the past,

What generation? THe rebellion lasted for about a year.

Gee, I didn't know that Bael was a Crown Prince. As for the rest of the argument, see above.

True enough. Lots of vital information missing.

Couldn't be reached by ravenmail while travelling? Had considerable delay in receiving fresh news due to the travel times?

Aegon had both a Bracken and a Blackwood as mistresses, but we don't know whether they were apart of the main line ala Cersei, or merely related ala Joanna.

That makes a world of difference.

Also, a Bracken/Blackwood isn't a Tully, who isn't a Stark.

Different levels of movers and shakers.

[Dragonstar]

I think its naive to say that Rhaegar's only appeal was looks. He was clearly a skilled musician, a self-taught knight and well learned. He seemed to be a charismatic enough leader with enough appeal to both the small folk and lords closer to him. He was aware of how destructive his father was. Perhaps he had his own ill-advised plans of marrying Lyanna and somehow through that union, preserving the realm. But like all grand schemes in aSoIaF, the results were tragic.

[corbon]

I mean, seriously, what did he think was gonna happen?

What was the absolute best scenario for Rhaegar when he decide to kidnap Lyanna (or elope with her)?

Rickard and/or Robert appeal to the King following the usual due processes.

The King doesn't know where Rhaegar and Lyanna are, and can't find them to order Lyanna to go back to Rickard.

The Starks and Baratheons dont know where they are and can't do anything stupid with orce to take her back.

In 6 months time Rhagear and Lyanna emerge, married, and Lyanna pregnant with the third head of the dragon.

Robert says "well, she's soiled goods now, married and pregnant, I don't really want her, but she's still MINE". Rickard says "I gave him my word". Rhaegar says " Here, Robert, I'll arrange you a top marriage, grant the Baratheon's these extra lands here, and hold a great tourney in your honour with 3 weeks of melee. Rickard, your daghter is already my wife, so your grandson will be second in line for the throne behind Aegon. But I owe you more, so here are these lands to add to Stark domains, a tax remission for 5 years, and you will be my Hand of the King." Rickard and Robert grumble a bit, but Rickard actually has a better deal by far than he had before, and Bob has a short attention span, the prospect of a tourney melee, and a different hot chick to fuck-and-put-on-the-mantlepiece.

Rhaegar and Lyanna get to stay together and have the thrid head of the dragon.

Oh, and the three heads of the dragon save the world later, as per prophecy.

You asked...

But its actually not at all unlikely. All that is required is Brandon not to be such a moron and everyone to act with self-interest.

But during that tourney something changed suddenly. He met Lyanna and something told him that he had to abscond with her right then and there. I hope before the end of the series it is explained what that "something" was that made him switch his goals so completely.

Actually, not right then and there. About 9 months to a year or so later.

And the thing that changed was that Elia had trouble with Aegon's birth and the Maesters said she couldn't have any more children. But Rhaegar still needed one more kid for the prophecy, which means he now needed another woman.

And I honestly am unsure on what your point about Brandon is. We have Jaime's story about what Brandon said and how that pissed off Aerys to the point that he arrested him and Rickard. Are you arguing that Jaime is unreliable and there is a whole other set of reasons that Aerys flipped out? Because otherwise we know at least how Brandon reacted.

No, her point is that we have only Jaime's word of what happened, and he is a neutral party here (despising both sides) so we have no reason to doubt his account.

And he says that Brandon rode up to the gates and called for Rhaegar to "come out and die". No mention of a duel, no mention of Lyanna, just a threat to the life of the crown prince.

We believe (obviously) that Lyanna's disappearance is involved in the motivation of Brandon. But we don't know exactly what he knows, or thinks he knows, how he got that information (or even if it is true) or who from, and we also don't know if his motivation is truly to do with Lyanna or thats just a superficial trigger - after all, he shows no actual concern for her safety or whereabouts, he's only interested in Rhaegar (who defeated Brandon at the tourney in Harrenhal BTW).

Rhaegar should have gone to Lord Rickard with Lyanna to discuss the matter. Having your king's son with your daughter pressuring you to release her from engagement, well, it was worth a shot.

Is it? If it fails, you are screwed. And why would Rickard abandon his honour just because of some pressure from the Crown Prince?

Frankly thats a dud plan with little hope of working and when it inevitably fails it makes a successful resolution (R+L together, everyone else satisifed enough to keep the peace) very much harder.

Rhaegar probably should have kept the prophecy out of it, but perhaps a letter from his wife saying she is on board would have helped. Robert would have been angry, Brandon may or may not have been angry, the rest of Westeros might look with morbid curiosity, but it would have passed. As of right now we are left with a would-be prophetic Targ prince who took something he wanted and then shut himself off while the world burned down in the aftermath of his action. He acted terribly foolish without much foresight of even possible consequences, and did not follow-up. He acted very much like Dany would, which makes me think that is likely the whole story, and dragons simply don't consider that which doesn't directly affect their desires and whims.

Not going into hiding but treating things as though everything was normal, would be acting without foresight or regard to consequences.

The very act of going into hiding proves consequences are expected and plans have been made.

On the off-chance grrm does some reworking, and Rhaegar was saving Lyanna from some terrible fate (a predatory brother or fiance), I'll just roll my eyes and say whatever.

Hello? Have you not read the books? He's already done that. Lyanna was affianced to a drunken lecherous lout whom she didn't like. And who turned into just about the worst husband and father in westeros (which is some kind of achievement!)

Fine, Rhaegar lied to everyone about his intentions for reasons his own,

When? Frankly, this is bullshit, invented to justify an unreasoned and irrational hatred.

and then failed to do anything over the next few months as Aerys first arrested Brandon and company and then murdered Lord Rickard et al.

Dropping out of sight should have prevented the sorts of things that did happen. And the thing about dropping out of sight is that you don't get a twitter feed about everything thats happening in westeros today. Or last week. Or even last month sometimes.

You can't 'fail' to do something about things that happen out of your control and out of your knowledge.

Further, even if he was there, there is probably little or nothing he could have done. Brandon committed treason as the first actionable thing. The way Brandon approached things and the actions he took, Rhaegar's prior actions suddenly become irrelevant.

Aerys was fully correct to arrest him.

Rickard came south freely to defend his son at trial. Rickard requested trial by combat. Nothing Rhaegar could have done here so far.

Aerys went nuts at the trial. But he's the King, and there is not a lot Rhaegar can do right there and then anyway. And then Aerys demand's Robert and Ned's heads too - not a lot Rhaegar can do about that either. The crown prince doesn't get to countermand the king when when he is in favour, let alone when he is distrusted and out of favour!

Ask forgiveness later, pah. He did what he wanted and didn't think he had to answer for his actions, all the while Westeros burned. He is pretty much the villain of the piece in my eyes, and not fun evil like Cersei, but lame evil.

One has to check ones brain at the door to follow this logic.

He obviously did think he had to answer for his actions, or he would have stayed in public.

And he did respond to his responsibilities, coming back to lead the defense of the realm as soon as he found out what had happened, and planning to remove Aerys, whose madness exploded the fraught situation Brandon created into inevitable rebellion.

I mean starting a civil war because you wanted to complete a prophecy and then not bothering to check in with, well, anyone as chaos descends either out of ignorance or uncaring or whatever. Ineptitude for anyone, disaster for the crown prince.

Go read the books. He did not start the civil war (rebellion actually) and his known actions did not lead directly to the rebellion. Brandon and Aerys both had to respond disproportionately first.

[Lord Damian]

Rheagar and Drogo seem to have many people who actually think well of them for some reason, their exotic appearances and tragic deaths for the women they loved or something like that. Different psychological perspecitves I guess.

[Nami]

"He stole some girl?"

She was the daughter of a great Lord, promised to another great Lord and Rhaegar was the heir to the crown, already married with children of his own.

"He stole some girl?"

What????

I mean, seriously, what did he think was gonna happen?

What was the absolute best scenario for Rhaegar when he decide to kidnap Lyanna (or elope with her)?

That's the thing, he was most likely not thinking.

[JeepCSC]

Brandon never did anything as far as I can tell. Surely saying angry words after you think your family is endangered is not treason. That was madness showing when Aerys accused Brandon of plotting murder. Believing it was because he was defeated at Harrenhal or whatever you are getting at is lunacy as well. Robert believed it was rape and kidnap. Bran believes it was rape and kidnap. Even in Essos, Dany believes it was Rhaegar sneaking off with Lyanna. Sure grrm could make up a new reason for why Brandon was upset (hopefully something better than Harrenhal), but his actions as of now fit in fine with the narrative we are given. He learned of Rhaegar taking Lyanna in some capacity, and he was angry.

Going into hiding and not allowing news like your father arresting an angry brother and demanding Rickard appear to answer treason charges, or their subsequent deaths, or all the lords calling their bannermen, that is not simply disappearing and letting it blow over. That is not wanting or caring to see how it plays out. Believing that you could disappear with a lord paramount's daughter and it would blow over is crazy. Particularly when your idea of Rhaegar's plan is that Lyanna gets pregnant soon. As we have seen in Westeros (and real life), there is no timetable for these things. It could have taken a few years. Surely Rhaegar's master plan didn't hinge on lynna having to get pregnant first. Surely that isnt what you are saying. As far as the info given, Rhaegar did everything one would do not to answer for their actions. He didn't want to confront Aerys, he didn't want to confront Robert, he didn't want to confront Rickard, he didn't want to confront Brandon. He could have but he didn't want to. He decided to gamble and instead a justifiably angry Brandon was on trial for his life and Rickard had to come down and then armies were raised, and Rhaegar was playing with his fiddle. At any point in there, Rhaegar could have inserted himself to say, oh by the way, Lyanna wanted this. Here is her note of remorse for deceiving you, wut wut, see you at Sevenmas Eve.

I think this is an issue we just aren't going to see eye-to-eye on. There is one story that actually takes place inside the timespan of the books that has a similar ring to this, and that is Ramsey Snow and Lady Hornwood. Certainly different, but there is little reason at this time to think it wasn't perfectly reasonable for Brandon to act like Rodrik Cassel did in Clash.

[Nami]

He threatened the prince's life. That's treason.

[corbon]

Brandon never did anything as far as I can tell. Surely saying angry words after you think your family is endangered is not treason. That was madness showing when Aerys accused Brandon of plotting murder.

5 guys ride up to the gates.

"Hey X, come out and die"

Thats not plotting murder?

[The Taxman]

Like all Targs, he was half-mad.

[JeepCSC]

He said angry words. "Come out and die" is one of the least treasonous treasonous acts said in a story chocked full of treasonous acts, particularly when the person intended wasn't even there. Aerys, who saw knives around any corner, took brashness for conspiracy. Again, Rhaegar seemed to have no idea about the personalities involved. Brandon being mad and Aerys seeing villains was about the easiest thing to diagnose in the world.

[JeepCSC]

5 guys ride up to the gates.

"Hey X, come out and die"

Thats not plotting murder?

Sounds like plotting a duel honestly. Trial by combat in Brandon's own way.

[corbon]

Sounds like plotting a duel honestly. Trial by combat in Brandon's own way.

ok then.... :leaving:

[JeepCSC]

I think it was several shades less threatening than Jaime's actions against Ned. An action Robert brushed off. And that was to his best friend and Hand (well, sorta, though technically he was in-between stints). Certainly Ned was not a royal, and therefore treason was off the table, but words are wind and Aerys (or his madness) had to choose to be threatened by Brandon's angry words. Again, Brandon is playing the role of Cassel here, searching for justice and vengeance. Certainly Brandon was impetuous beyond belief, but there was no conspiracy towards treason or plot to murder. It was an angry brother wanting recourse in some form.