Why was Rhaegar revered?

[ambi76]

Or am I missing something here?

Went totally nutty over some vague prophecy he read somewhere, that seemed like it could maybe be about him if you squint.

That's actually what makes it imposslible for me to take the otherwise seemingly nice valiant guy in any way serious.

[Anath]

The Dornish have a custom to take paramours and legitimazing their offspring. If Rhaegar married Lyanna however (which I think happened, since polygamy is still legal) it could be considered a stain on the honor of house Martell, but since his first wife had become barren I don't think Doran would have done anything.

Maybe, just maybe if Elia had been barren. And even then, it is no sure thing. But she gave Rhaegar two healthy heirs, almost dying in the process. Rhaegar spat at her efforts. For all Doran knew, Rhaegar had ruined Elia's health to get his heirs. If afterwards he went on like, "Well, she's barren, so...", I believe Dorne would have taken it as the offence it would have been. And I think Doran wouldn't have believed in Rhaegar's prophecy as passionately as to be understanding.

By this line of thinking all Kings should take new wives as soon as their first queens hit the menopause.

[Batman]

Why is the dude from twilight revered? Looks, that's about it.

[SeanF]

It's hard to believe that people would look kindly on Rhaegar if he really had kidnapped Lyanna and repeatedly raped her (although Dany seems to think the idea of kidnap at swordpoint is romantic) . Ned appears to harbour no bitterness towards him, and on his deathbed, Robert comments about Rhaegar being the winner because he's with Lyanna. I'm 90% certain that it was a consensual elopement. That still leaves the point about it being a stupid move. And there, we don't have enough information about the prophecies to be able to determine whether Rhaegar was being stupid or not. He seems to have been obsessed with the need to have a third child, but at the same time, he knew that a third pregnancy would kill Elia.

[SeanF]

Maybe, just maybe if Elia had been barren. And even then, it is no sure thing. But she gave Rhaegar two healthy heirs, almost dying in the process. Rhaegar spat at her efforts. For all Doran knew, Rhaegar had ruined Elia's health to get his heirs. If afterwards he went on like, "Well, she's barren, so...", I believe Dorne would have taken it as the offence it would have been. And I think Doran wouldn't have believed in Rhaegar's prophecy as passionately as to be understanding.

By this line of thinking all Kings should take new wives as soon as their first queens hit the menopause.

It's speculation on my part, but Rhaegar might have got Elia's agreement to taking a second wife. The Maesters had warned that a third pregnancy would kill Elia.

[Blackfyre demon]

Maybe, just maybe if Elia had been barren. And even then, it is no sure thing. But she gave Rhaegar two healthy heirs, almost dying in the process. Rhaegar spat at her efforts. For all Doran knew, Rhaegar had ruined Elia's health to get his heirs. If afterwards he went on like, "Well, she's barren, so...", I believe Dorne would have taken it as the offence it would have been. And I think Doran wouldn't have believed in Rhaegar's prophecy as passionately as to be understanding.

By this line of thinking all Kings should take new wives as soon as their first queens hit the menopause.

Elia was chosen to be Rhaegar's wife by order of the Mad King, she had always been in delicate health adn she definitely was barren the Maesters said so,

Dornishmen don't take offense to paramours they do it themselves it's the natural way of things in Dorne.

Rhaegar didn't spat at her efforts if he had he would have denounced his children by her. And that is a true insult.

Now why did the Dornish stick with the Targaryens till the end and even after the sack of KL they didn't want Robert as their king and they went as far as declaring themselves independant only when Robert formally apoligised for the brutal murders did they lay down their spears. And even now they plot to bring back fire and blood

And most kings did have secret lovers stashed away somewhere, especially when their wives hit menopause.

I suggest you reread all the novels and pay a bit more attention to the Dornish during your read.

[SeanF]

Elia was chosen to be Rhaegar's wife by order of the Mad King, she had always been in delicate health adn she definitely was barren the Maesters said so,

Dornishmen don't take offense to paramours they do it themselves it's the natural way of things in Dorne.

Rhaegar didn't spat at her efforts if he had he would have denounced his children by her. And that is a true insult.

Now why did the Dornish stick with the Targaryens till the end and even after the sack of KL they didn't want Robert as their king and they went as far as declaring themselves independant only when Robert formally apoligised for the brutal murders did they lay down their spears. And even now they plot to bring back fire and blood

And most kings did have secret lovers stashed away somewhere, especially when their wives hit menopause.

I suggest you reread all the novels and pay a bit more attention to the Dornish during your read.

Martin has said that the Dornish were annoyed by Rhaegar's behaviour. This was not because of his taking lover, or second wife, per se, but because they thought he was publicly disrespecting his Princess. However, what we don't have are Elia's views on the matter.

[Ramsay B.]

Some people just have that "It" factor.

[Anath]

It's speculation on my part, but Rhaegar might have got Elia's agreement to taking a second wife. The Maesters had warned that a third pregnancy would kill Elia.

Elia's personal agreement isn't the issue. My point was that as far as the text goes, a wife becoming barren after producing heirs is no reason for repudiation or acknowledging bastards. No matter Elia's personal feelings, it would still be a slap to her pride and the way people perceive her if after giving Rhaegar heirs, he takes a second wife because, you see, Elia is already barren. Why do you think Doran would base his entire politics on Elia's personal feelings and not the interests of Dorne? He never did it with Arianne. And I doubt Elia had much of a choice when she married Rhaegar. Suddenly, Doran would stop seeing the very probable bad consequences for Dorne (Rhaenyra and Aegon come to mind) and smile benignly simply because Elia didn't care who her replacement in Rhaegar's bed was? I don't think so.

Changing the time-honoured custom to someone's detriment is an insult and Dorne would take it as such, even if Elia herself did not feel slighted. Which I find highly improbable. She was a human, not a saint and agreeing with Rhaegar about the prophecy or not, it would have still been a blow to her pride, no matter whether it would have been a blow to her heart.

In King's Landing, Elia IS Dorne and Rhaegar slighted her, respectively Dorne, badly enough with the whole crowning affair. I think it would be a bit rich if he took a second wife and excused it to her family with the subsequent barrenness of his first one.

[Nictarion]

Lets not forget looking pretty gives you 10000 bonus points in Westeros.

Its the same in real life.

[Silent_Hero]

Well technically Rhaegar didn't really start Roberts War, he was a prince who like everyone let love cloud his mind and do something teenager stupid, though I personally believe he either had some great revealation or prophecy or something to have eloped with Lyanna the way he did.

There's a bigger picture we just haven't seen yet

[MotherAnduin]

Rhaegar died young and looked good.

[Anath]

Back to the OP: Rhaegar no doubt was charismatic.

[The Wolves]

Really?

Not the OP but are you really trying to argue that Rhaegar should have expected his wife and children murdered, his family's dynasty destroyed his home seized, his siblings running for most of their life in exile and running from assassins because he stole some girl?

Yes Rhaegar should have expected retribution for kidnapping the Warden of the North's daughter a highborn maiden. But I really don't think it's fair to say that he could predict that it would come back on his family like it did.

[SeanF]

Elia's personal agreement isn't the issue. My point was that as far as the text goes, a wife becoming barren after producing heirs is no reason for repudiation or acknowledging bastards. No matter Elia's personal feelings, it would still be a slap to her pride and the way people perceive her if after giving Rhaegar heirs, he takes a second wife because, you see, Elia is already barren. Why do you think Doran would base his entire politics on Elia's personal feelings and not the interests of Dorne? He never did it with Arianne. And I doubt Elia had much of a choice when she married Rhaegar. Suddenly, Doran would stop seeing the very probable bad consequences for Dorne (Rhaenyra and Aegon come to mind) and smile benignly simply because Elia didn't care who her replacement in Rhaegar's bed was? I don't think so.

Changing the time-honoured custom to someone's detriment is an insult and Dorne would take it as such, even if Elia herself did not feel slighted. Which I find highly improbable. She was a human, not a saint and agreeing with Rhaegar about the prophecy or not, it would have still been a blow to her pride, no matter whether it would have been a blow to her heart.

In King's Landing, Elia IS Dorne and Rhaegar slighted her, respectively Dorne, badly enough with the whole crowning affair. I think it would be a bit rich if he took a second wife and excused it to her family with the subsequent barrenness of his first one.

I imagine that's exactly what Doran felt. However, there was no question of Rhaegar's children by Elia being removed from the line of succession, so Doran still had a strong vested interest in supporting the Targaryens.

[yasasbandara]

There's a saying "As you sow the seed, so shall you reap the fruit". You can't expect good consequences from a bad action.

Rhaegar committed a transgression. It led to another transgression by Brandon which led to another by the mad king. This is how things work...

One transgression begets another and this one begets the next. Thus evil grows and justice is destroyed. The ultimate evil action was killing the children.

So, Rhaegar paid the price. Robert's hammer found its mark. His debt is paid.

[Ygrain]

Crown princes aren't allowed to "kidnap" lord's daughters. That should be self-evident, unless you are going down the Dany-Viserys rabbit hole that "dragons do not care what the sheep say, the dragon merely takes what it wants". And Robert wouldn't have been king and Cersei would never have been able to blow the line of succession if Rhaegar had not eloped with Lyanna. I didn't say Rhaegar was directly responsible, only that he set off the chain reaction that led Westeros to the sad state it is in. Which he did. After creating a situation that he knew was wrong (he'd have done it openly if he knew otherwise) and then letting his phone go to voice mail after he did what he did because he didn't care to see what would happen.

Sigh. No-one is allowed to kidnap (if it was a kidnap), but the response of the offended party would vary greatly depending on the social standing of the offender. With a Crown Prince, the offended family might even high-five at a possible access to power via their daughter (not saying that the Starks would). Most certainly, they wouldn't send searching parties to kill him on the spot as they would do with some nobody bard, as laying a hand on the Crown Prince is a treason.

And I guess we could say Jaime was lying about what Brandon did. But then that changes why Mad King Aerys arrested Brandon, and called Lord Rickard to answer charges. And if we go that far, perhaps Aerys was right to do what he did. Perhaps he is not mad at all, and was quite sane and it was the rest of Westeros that was Mad. Perhaps.

Based on what? The only other reference to the whole event is from Cat, that Brandon was on his way to Riverrun when he learned about Lyanna, and went to KL - no details of what he learned or did.

Went totally nutty over some vague prophecy he read somewhere, that seemed like it could maybe be about him if you squint.

That's actually what makes it imposslible for me to take the otherwise seemingly nice valiant guy in any way serious.

Given that the whole Targaryen line survived because their forefathers followed some vague prophecy while everyone who was laughing at them for that was dead, not quite so nutty.

[Thaune]

Not the OP but are you really trying to argue that Rhaegar should have expected his wife and children murdered, his family's dynasty destroyed his home seized, his siblings running for most of their life in exile and running from assassins because he stole some girl?

"He stole some girl?"

She was the daughter of a great Lord, promised to another great Lord and Rhaegar was the heir to the crown, already married with children of his own.

"He stole some girl?"

What????

I mean, seriously, what did he think was gonna happen?

What was the absolute best scenario for Rhaegar when he decide to kidnap Lyanna (or elope with her)?

[Anath]

I imagine that's exactly what Doran felt. However, there was no question of Rhaegar's children by Elia being removed from the line of succession, so Doran still had a strong vested interest in supporting the Targaryens.

Supporting them during the war, yes. Staying idle when later Rhaegar insulted Dorne by taking a second wife because Rhaegar made short work out of the remains of Elia's frail health and then all but said she wasn't good enough in that respect is something entirely different. A second marriage is a blow to Dorne's influence and authority. And who is to say that Rhaegar wouldn't remove Aegon from the succession at some point later? Or even if he didn't, that one day Dowager Queen Lyanna wouldn't decide that her children should inherit because she was Rhaegar's favourite wife?

While Viserys I was alive, there was no doubt who his successor was. When he died, all the hell broke loose. Doran would have tried to prevent any possibility of such thing ever happening again, especially when Dorne is weaker than it looks.

[C0bR]

Lets not forget looking pretty gives you 10000 bonus points in Westeros. Even Renly got popular because he was handsome. Rhaegar was handsome enough that all forgot he was an incompetent at the end of the day.

Basically this. Just be fair, pretty (preferably with silver hair and purple eyes) and little emo and you can't do no wrong, regardless of how bad human being you really are. It is like Targs put a spell over people.