Why was Rhaegar revered?

[binga]

Good looks, long silver hair, played the harp, and was a warrior with a sensitive nerdy side. Unfortunately he was a bit of a nut and an emo character. He tried to be the hero but got his ass kicked by someone who was really meant to be on the battlefield. He was the Westerosi equivalent of Tom Cruise. Lyanna was his Katie Holmes.

[Ygrain]

I think it was several shades less threatening than Jaime's actions against Ned. An action Robert brushed off. And that was to his best friend and Hand (well, sorta, though technically he was in-between stints). Certainly Ned was not a royal, and therefore treason was off the table, but words are wind and Aerys (or his madness) had to choose to be threatened by Brandon's angry words. Again, Brandon is playing the role of Cassel here, searching for justice and vengeance. Certainly Brandon was impetuous beyond belief, but there was no conspiracy towards treason or plot to murder. It was an angry brother wanting recourse in some form.

Somehow, you keep missing what it means to be royalty and a Targ on top of it. A hand which but touches a Targ with bad intention is cut off, and now Brandon wants to kill one, who is a Crown Prince on top of that. It doesn't matter much if it was supposed to be a duel or not, people are simply not allowed to kill royal heirs.

[yasasbandara]

All these arguments portraying Rhegar as a saint are based on one assumption.

“Whatever Rhegar did became irrelevant/unimportant once Brandon opened his mouth”

I think this is a flawed argument because it can be used against ANY crime Rhegar could have committed.

Ex1- Let’s say Rhegar rapes Lyanna in front of 100 eyewitnesses and runs into hiding. Brandon comes and does his thing. Now you guys would say – “Brandon committed treason. Rhegar only rape. Treason is a bigger crime and what Rhegar did became irrelevant once Brandon committed treason”

EX2- Let’s say Rhegar rapes and kills Lyanna in front of 100 eyewitnesses and runs into hiding. Brandon comes and does his thing. Now you guys would say – “Brandon committed treason. Rhegar only rape and murder. Treason is a bigger crime and what Rhegar did became irrelevant once Brandon committed treason”

Now, let’s say that Brandon acted differently; let’s say he went to the mad king and accuses Rhegar of kidnapping. Mad king says “Accusing the crown prince is treason. Burn him..!”. You guys could still insist on using the textbook definition of treason and say “Whatever Rhegar did became irrelevant/unimportant once Brandon opened his mouth”.

So, your argument is absurd. It only says that being the crown prince allows Rhegar to do whatever he wants rational or irrational, good or bad. But the other human beings (Ex- Brandon) should always act rationally. Whatever Rhegar did, Brandon and the rest should have acted rationally (but it's ok for Rhegar not to act rationally because he's the prince).

[Ygrain]

What Rhaegar did was irrelevant for the start and course of the rebellion which was NOT fought over Lyanna.

[corbon]

All these arguments portraying Rhegar as a saint are based on one assumption.

You are doing this again, and you should stop.

“Whatever Rhegar did became irrelevant/unimportant once Brandon opened his mouth”

I think this is a flawed argument because it can be used against ANY crime Rhegar could have committed.

Ex1- Let’s say Rhegar rapes Lyanna in front of 100 eyewitnesses and runs into hiding. Brandon comes and does his thing. Now you guys would say – “Brandon committed treason. Rhegar only rape. Treason is a bigger crime and what Rhegar did became irrelevant once Brandon committed treason”

As Ygrain notes, its only irrelevant with respect to the start of the rebellion.

If Rhaegar commits an actual crime, he's still responsible for it. In your example, Brandon would have still committed treason, but Rhaegar would also have commmitted rape and would be accountable for that.

Brandon may get some leniency due to the circumstances (probably not, because this is the paranoid Aerys after all). But he didn;t even bring it up. He didn't demand the return of his sister. He didn't even mention her. He just rode up to the red keep with a hadful of companions, where everybody was happily going about their business, unaware that anything was wrong, and committed blatant treason in full public.

No doubt everyone was, like: "WTF?"

Of course he got arrested, and quite rightly too.

The thing is, whatever Lyannna and or Rhaegar did (and we don't know what that was), things were still resolvable without anyone dying.

Once Brandon acts the way he did, its no longer an accused case against the crown prince that must be adjudicated, its a witnessed and proven case against Brandon with a mandatory death penalty. The stakes have been upped so far that Lyanna is practically forgotten - as evidenced by the fact that she isn't mentioned again, not even by Rickard.

Action A leaves us with the accusation of a fairly serious crime.

Action B leaves us with a much more serious crime (mandatory death penalty) committed in full public view, with no doubts at all.

When that happens, its just natural, if unfortunate, for action A to get lost in the smoke of the results of action B.

And the worst thing is, its not even like Brandon's actions could have had a positive result in the best case scenario either!

Now, let’s say that Brandon acted differently; let’s say he went to the mad king and accuses Rhegar of kidnapping. Mad king says “Accusing the crown prince is treason. Burn him..!”. You guys could still insist on using the textbook definition of treason and say “Whatever Rhegar did became irrelevant/unimportant once Brandon opened his mouth”.

Another straw man.

Accusing the crown prince is not treason. Acting against him is treason. Calling for his death is treason. Seeking legal redress for a crime he has committed is not. Its asking the King to judge him, and following due process.

It may not work (its the paranoid king after all), but if it doesn't it won't be because you did anything wrong or illegal, but because the King did something wrong or illegal.

If Brandon did this, then Rhaegar would be responsible for his actions, and Aerys would be responsible for his actions (whatever they be), but Brandon would not be responsible for doing anything wrong or inflamatory.

And it might have actually worked. It certainly had more chance of a positive result than just randomly riding up to the Red Keep and calling for Rhaegar to come out and die, without even ascertaining if he was even there, or mentioning what the problem was. There is zero chance thats ever going to turn out positively.

[Blackfyre demon]

Rhaegar is getting a lot of shit because some people here believe he didn't care about Westeros burning,

I believe he did care, I think he simply didn't know.

I think paranoid Aerys who saw plots everywhere, was thinking that his own son had conspired against him,

which led Aerys to believe Brandon and/or Rickard were in on the plot to place Rhaegar on the throne and depose and kill him.

This could explain why Aerys was so cruel towards the Starks and their friends (Arryn and Baratheon).

And why Rhaegar took so long to go to battle, Aerys probably wouldn't want to contact a man who was going to replace him.

If I recall correctly doesn't ser Barristan or Jamie think about how in the end Aerys didn't even trust his own son anymore?

[Toos]

I think that it's too soon judge who was right because we don't have enough information. We can find in next book that Brandon said much more than his infamous "Come and die" and another informations about Lyanna kidnapping/elopment. But IMHO Rhaegar should thought his actions better from informations we have now.

[yasasbandara]

Accusing the crown prince is not treason. Acting against him is treason.

Have I read the wrong book by any chance?

*Accusing Joffery of being a bastard was defined as treason by Cersei.

*Even whispering the above accusation in the streets was defined as treason by Cersei.

And this was Cersei who knew very well that the accusation was 100% correct…

And you’re saying the MAD king would not consider accusing the prince as treason?

In the SoIAF universe, treason is whatever that falls under any definition given by the ruling party. The ruling party can define practically anything as treason.

Just one question for you, which treason started the war?

1. The treason of Brandon who paid for it with life or

2. The treason of Jon Arryn who refused a direct order from the king

Obviously it’s No 2. Brandon’s treason was over and done.

But nobody is saying “Jon Arryn committed treason and started a war which killed thousands. He should have cut the heads of two innocent men.”

Why? Because there’s a concept of Right vs. Wrong. Jon Arryn did the right thing.

So, why it’s so difficult to accept that what Reghar did was wrong? Why it’s so difficult to accept that if Reghar had done the right thing, none of this could have happened?

Roose Bolton kills a man and rapes his women --> Ramsay Bolton born --> Ramsay kills Bolton’s son, kills hundreds of men, women, children, skins people alive, starve women to death, rapes women etc. etc.

So when someone says Roose Bolton is ALSO responsible for these horrors, are we going to argue that he had the ‘right’ to rape the woman (Lord’s right to first night) and hang the man (for denying the said right)? Are we going to argue that Roose didn’t plan on getting the woman pregnant? That he had no control over what happened? That he cannot control how other people might act?

Your arguments are just like that. They are technically correct but entirely useless.

Even Ser Barraston felt responsible for all the evil caused by the mad king (just because he did his duty). Even he wondered just how much blood was in his hands. He felt responsible for not beating Reghar so that all these horrors may have been avoided.

[yasasbandara]

You know what the real sick part is? Reghar actually won. Robert was the man who ultimately lost.

Robert and the realm.

*Reghar Never had to face any accusation.

*When the realm was bleeding, Reghar was having fun with his girl.

*He got the death befitting a warrior (although he was nothing compared to his opponent).

*He never had to see how his family was murdered (which was the ultimate end result of the series of events HE started)

*He probably got Lyanna killed (inadequate medical/nursing care?) but never had to see her dying.

*The Kingsguard dudes he left almost prevented a brother from seeing a dying sister (proves what an honorable character Reghar was. Per his command, Lyanna was doomed to die alone. After all the things he put Ned through, Reghar was not willing to allow even that small comfort).

*He probably managed to secure his legacy through Lyanna’s child. While Robert will be remembered as a drunkard King who let his queen get repeatedly impregnated by a kingsguard.

[Ygrain]

*Accusing Joffery of being a bastard was defined as treason by Cersei.

*Even whispering the above accusation in the streets was defined as treason by Cersei.

Did it somehow escape your attention that the accusation against Joffrey was undermining his claim to the throne and could be used to depose him? Such endeavour is truly treason (and the fact that we know it true and that Cersei acts in self-interest doesn't make it any less true for Baratheon loyalists)

So, why it’s so difficult to accept that what Reghar did was wrong? Why it’s so difficult to accept that if Reghar had done the right thing, none of this could have happened?

If the Andals didn't cross the sea, none of this would have happened, either. No-one here has ever claimed that Rhaegar didn't create a "situation" but solely on its own, without the escalation from Brandon and especially Aerys, it shouldn't have resulted in war.

Even Ser Barraston felt responsible for all the evil caused by the mad king (just because he did his duty). Even he wondered just how much blood was in his hands. He felt responsible for not beating Reghar so that all these horrors may have been avoided.

Do you really claim that setting off a chain of events that the person could in no way predict or prevent actually makes him responsible? The person may be aware of the causative chain but this doesn't make him a culprit.

You know what the real sick part is? Reghar actually won. Robert was the man who ultimately lost.

Robert and the realm.

*Reghar Never had to face any accusation.

*When the realm was bleeding, Reghar was having fun with his girl.

*He got the death befitting a warrior (although he was nothing compared to his opponent).

*He never had to see how his family was murdered (which was the ultimate end result of the series of events HE started)

*He probably got Lyanna killed (inadequate medical/nursing care?) but never had to see her dying.

*The Kingsguard dudes he left almost prevented a brother from seeing a dying sister (proves what an honorable character Reghar was. Per his command, Lyanna was doomed to die alone. After all the things he put Ned through, Reghar was not willing to allow even that small comfort).

*He probably managed to secure his legacy through Lyanna’s child. While Robert will be remembered as a drunkard King who let his queen get repeatedly impregnated by a kingsguard.

He who wants to beat a dog, finds any stick handy, right?

Joanna Lannister or Minisa Tully also died of neglect? Rhaegar consulted his crystal ball and ordered the KG to deny Ned access as Lyanna will be dying (not to mention that the KG vows to protect the heir would take priority over anything)? Come on.

[JeepCSC]

I do think you are reading the wrong books. Tyrion roundly criticizes Cersei's paranoia over wanting to harm every person that says every bad thing about Joffrey. Because even if treason, it would be insane to punish everyone for angry words. The whole point of that was to paint Cersei as unhinged, and Tyrion as living in the real world. Brandon was wrong, but if anyone save an insane man sat on the throne, he'd be seen for what he was, an angry brother.

[JeepCSC]

At the end of the day, Rhaegar took something (whether by force or willfully was unknown to the other parts because there apparently was no communication with anyone). He then decided not to stick around to see the consequences. It is what 3-year old children do. And Targ royals. I am beginning to think there is little difference.

[tormund's beard]

rhaegar started everything, if he didn't kidnaped/eloped with lyanna, brandon nor rickard had reasons to go the red keep and get themselves murdered.

[Nami]

You know what the real sick part is? Reghar actually won. Robert was the man who ultimately lost.

Robert and the realm.

*Reghar Never had to face any accusation.

*When the realm was bleeding, Reghar was having fun with his girl.

*He got the death befitting a warrior (although he was nothing compared to his opponent).

*He never had to see how his family was murdered (which was the ultimate end result of the series of events HE started)

*He probably got Lyanna killed (inadequate medical/nursing care?) but never had to see her dying.

*The Kingsguard dudes he left almost prevented a brother from seeing a dying sister (proves what an honorable character Reghar was. Per his command, Lyanna was doomed to die alone. After all the things he put Ned through, Reghar was not willing to allow even that small comfort).

*He probably managed to secure his legacy through Lyanna’s child. While Robert will be remembered as a drunkard King who let his queen get repeatedly impregnated by a kingsguard.

Dude, it's RHAEGAR, please. How can you write that awesome name in the wrong way?

[Mariagoner]

Because it's easy to romanticize people who died young and beautiful. I guarantee you that if Rhaegar had lived to become old and ugly and had continued to make bad political choices (like: let me run off with a high lord's daughter and fiancee without telling anyone and hope her family/bethroed and my crazy father/king doesn't cause any trouble!), that shine would have worn off real soon.

He's like the John F. Kennedy of Westeros. He died young and pretty and in a romantic fashion (gunned down by assassin with wife besides him vs. killed in battle with his lady love's name on his lips) and afterwards, people tend to forget all the terrible political decisions (Bay of Pigs, Tower of Joy, etc. etc.) he made before.

Death can wash away may sins.

[Ygrain]

Because it's easy to romanticize people who died young and beautiful. I guarantee you that if Rhaegar had lived to become old and ugly and had continued to make bad political choices (like: let me run off with a high lord's daughter and fiancee without telling anyone and hope her family/bethroed and my crazy father/king doesn't cause any trouble!), that shine would have worn off real soon.

You know... we don't actually know this. What if he did inform Rickard but all went into hell, anyway because Brandon did what he did?

[Mariagoner]

Yeah, to be fair the war was mostly caused by Brandon going south and Aerys slaughtering him and his father. No doubt if anyone other than Brandon had gone to find out where Lyanna was, the war would not have happened. Aerys wouldn't have just had them killed because they did not (even remotely) threaten him. Eventually, Lyanna and Rhaegar would have gone public and everything would be fine.

I agree with you on the first part -- the war was mostly caused by Brandon and Aerys' hot-headedness and madness colliding rather horrifically -- not to mention Aerys then turning around and demanding the heads of both Ned and Robert.

But if I were a reasonably cunning individual in Rhaegar's place, I would have realized ahead of time that letting my severely mentally ill (he wanted to burn down a bloody city and kill thousands!) father stay king and in charge of a highly politically volatile situation is a terrible idea. In any way, shape, or form. Any decently intelligent person knows that allowing crazy people to dictate politics in a time of great upheaval is not a winning life plan!

I mean, if Rhaegar was hell-bent on having Lyanna, why didn't he depose his father first? Why couldn't he create some sort of ruse, like asking Lord Stark to delay Lyanna's wedding until other arrangements could be made? Why didn't he do something to take the lunatic off the throne before venturing on his grand schemes? Why didn't he get his ducks in a row (depose or neutralize crazy daddy, plot with the Starks, delay the Baratheons, get Elia's public permission, etc.) beforehand?

Rhaegar might have been a personally lovely person and romantic of the highest order. But he was a terrible planner, full stop.

[yasasbandara]

Because it's easy to romanticize people who died young and beautiful.

Rhaegar was revered because Robert was not someone like Roose Bolton. He was a simple warrior who understood war and honour. He let Rhaegar have a clean death.

So, Rhaegar died with a label ‘hero’ pinned on his back. He didn’t deserve this because he pulled some major s#it and ran away from any possible consequence like a 10 year old. If I were Robert, I would have captured him alive and referred him to “The Bolton Dermatology Clinic” (pretext- finding where Lyanna was. No one can blame him for this).

By that method, Rhaegar would have been stripped of what he had and made to look less than human. Robert wouldn’t have hated him so much because he was properly avenged. And maybe (just maybe) Lyanna would have been found early and all those kingsguards could not have had to sacrifice their lives unnecessarily. Maybe Lyanna’s life could have been saved with best medical and nursing care available.

[Nami]

Because it's easy to romanticize people who died young and beautiful. I guarantee you that if Rhaegar had lived to become old and ugly and had continued to make bad political choices (like: let me run off with a high lord's daughter and fiancee without telling anyone and hope her family/bethroed and my crazy father/king doesn't cause any trouble!), that shine would have worn off real soon.

He's like the John F. Kennedy of Westeros. He died young and pretty and in a romantic fashion (gunned down by assassin with wife besides him vs. killed in battle with his lady love's name on his lips) and afterwards, people tend to forget all the terrible political decisions (Bay of Pigs, Tower of Joy, etc. etc.) he made before.

Death can wash away may sins.

I doubt it was because he was young and beautiful

If he was a major douche and a monster all his life, that would be remembered