How Do You Think Elia Thought About Lyanna?

[TheMysteriousOne]

There is a difference between being held hostage and actually wanting to stay in the place, because you have no problem with your husband and you don't want to leave.

We don't know if Elia wanted to leave or not, but we know that Aerys kept her hostage out of paranoia and fear that the Dornish wouldn't be loyal.

[Anath]

Retaining her title as queen was the number one benefit for her and her little prince and princess.

The title wouldn't mean a thing. If people knew that Lyanna was Rhaegar's preferred queen, they would flock to cury favor with her and her children. Elia would be 'the other woman' in all but name because the power would be to Lyanna.

The Targaryen precedent for polygamy had been created, and that is what matters. Rhaegar was obviously obsessed with the "three headed dragon"--Aegon and his two sister wives--he even named his children after them.

The precedent for polygamy has been long abandoned and reviving it would be an offense, as good as declaration that Dorne and its princess were so unsatisfactory that he needed to turn about a hundred years back.

Maegor killing his wives was also a precedent. Are we to think that it would be all Rhaegar needed to get rid of this stubborn wife of his who wouldn't be so good to die in childbirth? Would it be all right?

Rhaegar was obsessed but the kingdom did not know that. The public image of Elia would have been that of a wife that had failed to please her husband.

If I'm not mistaken, GRRM has stated that more Targaryren kings may have practiced polygamy. The realm excused their incest, polygamy is not that huge of a leap, especially if it keeps Elia's family in the royal circle.

See above. At one time, there was a Targaryen king who practiced a more severe way of getting rid of unwanted wives. He had a big dragon named Balerion so the realm excused the murders, never mind incest. Rhaegar did not have this... ahem, shall we say means of persuasion.

The realm might excuse the poligamy thing. Still doesn't mean that Elia wouldn't have been humiliated and her position weakened. Even Visenya and Rhaenys fought over Aegon, each in her own way.

How is that Rhaegar's problem? Three heads of the dragon is his end game, including the hand of a beautiful maiden that he believes can provide him the child he so desperately desires.

It isn't Rhaega'r's problem, of course. The thread was about Elia's feelings.

Elia's duty was to her king, the moment she became queen. As queen, her duty to her king is to produce heirs and provide stability for her family and her House. The moment she became unable to bear children she was no longer doing her duty. Tough luck if the king doesn't love/care for her enough to protect her image. The moment he decided to take another woman was the moment Elia had to go into survival mode and start making some tough decisions.

Elia did her duty by providing him with two children, almost dying in the process. By this logic, every king should be free to practice poligamy the moment his queen hits the menopause. Survival mode would mean accepting the second marriage if she had exhausted all other means to sabotage it, not receiving the girl with open arms because she's Dornish and everyone knows they do things differently in Dorne. By the way, even GRRM said that there were certain boundaries in Dorne.

[ladyofslytherin]

Well, she was barren.

I really wish people would stop mistaking being unable to safely have any more children (Elia) or being unable to bring a living child to term due to miscarriage/stillbirth (Dany) with being barren. Barren means infertile, which means unable to conceive. They are three COMPLETELY different conditions, for f*ck's sake.

My mother was just like Elia: after having two children, her doctor told her having a third would probably kill her. She could have gotten pregnant, and carried the baby to term, but she likely would've hemorrhaged to death during childbirth or died of septicaemia shortly thereafter. If she'd been barren, my sister and I never would've been conceived.

[ladyofslytherin]

In my head canon, Elia and Rhaegar were fond enough of one another to be practical about the reality of their marriage, and to be considerate of each others' needs and feelings.

Elia was told she would die if she had another child. She didn't have the option of surrogacy, since that kind of medical tech doesn't exist in ASOIAF. It's safe to assume that she cared enough about what was important to him to not be willing to try and prevent or end a third pregnancy if one did result from their marital bed, and he was just obsessed enough with the idea to not be willing to tell her to do so to save herself if the baby was already made.

However, Rhaegar did care about Elia, who had been a good wife and had given him two heads of the dragon. So he likely would've abstained from her bed rather than risk getting her pregnant. But that leaves him without a third head for the dragon, which he wouldn't be able to reconcile, and Elia would not have like seeing him so conflicted.

I think Elia would've suggested a compromise: polyamory doesn't seem to be uncommon in Dornish sentiments, if not in practice. The Targaryens hadn't practiced actual polygamy for a few generations, so I don't think it was Rhaegar's bright idea, no matter how much canon paints it that way. I think she suggested to Rhaegar that he could and should find a suitable girl to become his second wife, and that she would back his play when the time came.

And maybe I'm just being sentimental, but I think Lyanna and Elia might've been friends if they'd had the chance to know one another. Their characters just strike me that way.

I also think that the Tower of Joy being where Rhaegar stashed Lyanna to get her knocked up was also a suggestion of Elia's. There was probably a septon in Dorne that would marry them, and it would be a place to keep Lyanna away from Aerys and the prying eyes of the court while Rhaegar & she worked on getting her pregnant. How much he clued Lyanna in on, IDK, but I don't think Lyanna was an unwilling participant in the process and I think Elia likely gave her some message of assurance that she wasn't going to be met with an incredibly brassed off Wife Number 1 when they did show up at KL married with a baby.

I think if either Elia or Rhaegar had gotten an opportunity to talk to Brandon Stark when he came to KL to throw down and get his sister back, things might've ended differently.

The wheels came off the wagon when Aerys got all murdery on Lyanna's father & biggest brother, and then Robert went apeshit and Ned helped him. Neither Rhaegar nor Elia nor Lyanna would've seen that coming. By the time Lyanna was definitely pregnant and Rhaegar came up for air, the entire situation had been blown out of proportion and half the realm was at war. They never got a chance to explain anything to anyone, and then they were all dead except for Aegriff, Dany, Viserys & Jon. So unless Howland Reed got the whole story from the dying Lyanna or Elia told someone in Dorne that isn't talking, we'll never know for sure.

But her co-engineering the plan with Rhaegar is my head canon, anyway.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

In my head canon, Elia and Rhaegar were fond enough of one another to be practical about the reality of their marriage, and to be considerate of each others' needs and feelings.

Elia was told she would die if she had another child. She didn't have the option of surrogacy, since that kind of medical tech doesn't exist in ASOIAF. It's safe to assume that she cared enough about what was important to him to not be willing to try and prevent or end a third pregnancy if one did result from their marital bed, and he was just obsessed enough with the idea to not be willing to tell her to do so to save herself if the baby was already made.

However, Rhaegar did care about Elia, who had been a good wife and had given him two heads of the dragon. So he likely would've abstained from her bed rather than risk getting her pregnant. But that leaves him without a third head for the dragon, which he wouldn't be able to reconcile, and Elia would not have like seeing him so conflicted.

I think Elia would've suggested a compromise: polyamory doesn't seem to be uncommon in Dornish sentiments, if not in practice. The Targaryens hadn't practiced actual polygamy for a few generations, so I don't think it was Rhaegar's bright idea, no matter how much canon paints it that way. I think she suggested to Rhaegar that he could and should find a suitable girl to become his second wife, and that she would back his play when the time came.

And maybe I'm just being sentimental, but I think Lyanna and Elia might've been friends if they'd had the chance to know one another. Their characters just strike me that way.

I also think that the Tower of Joy being where Rhaegar stashed Lyanna to get her knocked up was also a suggestion of Elia's. There was probably a septon in Dorne that would marry them, and it would be a place to keep Lyanna away from Aerys and the prying eyes of the court while Rhaegar & she worked on getting her pregnant. How much he clued Lyanna in on, IDK, but I don't think Lyanna was an unwilling participant in the process and I think Elia likely gave her some message of assurance that she wasn't going to be met with an incredibly brassed off Wife Number 1 when they did show up at KL married with a baby.

I think if either Elia or Rhaegar had gotten an opportunity to talk to Brandon Stark when he came to KL to throw down and get his sister back, things might've ended differently.

The wheels came off the wagon when Aerys got all murdery on Lyanna's father & biggest brother, and then Robert went apeshit and Ned helped him. Neither Rhaegar nor Elia nor Lyanna would've seen that coming. By the time Lyanna was definitely pregnant and Rhaegar came up for air, the entire situation had been blown out of proportion and half the realm was at war. They never got a chance to explain anything to anyone, and then they were all dead except for Aegriff, Dany, Viserys & Jon. So unless Howland Reed got the whole story from the dying Lyanna or Elia told someone in Dorne that isn't talking, we'll never know for sure.

But her co-engineering the plan with Rhaegar is my head canon, anyway.

for some reason I like this. Maybe she knew Rhaegar was obsessed with this and knowing he was growing more and more obsessed suggested another woman to have his bastard, maybe even legit through polyg, so he would try and inpregnate her again

[Nami]

LOL Why people claim Rhaegar was obsessed? Just because he talked about the prophecy maybe twice?

So Aemon was also obsessed?

People assume Rhaegar did everything he did because of a prophecy, and this is not stated in the books.

[King Stannis' Man]

Here's my two cents,

I think Elia was and should be super pissed at Rhaegar. It is perfectly logical for her given that he cheated on her and abandoned her for Lyanna. To me, if Elia was OK with all this and believed in Rhaegar's "prophecies" , that would literally make Rhaegar WAY too perfect. Every other character has in book haters, even the honorable Ned Stark, so should Rhaegar. Secondly, I don't think it would really be feasible for Elia to believe in the prophecy anyway. I mean when reading the books we see that most people don't really believe in all that crazy supernatural stuff (Ned Stark dismisses the Others, Maesters always doubting magic), To me it would be a little far fetched to believe that Elia (whose from a non-magical family) to believe in that stuff even if it was true (which it probably will be). In my opinion, what Rhaegar and Lyanna did was wrong and they both share the blame. Elia has every right to hate Rhaegar. He abandoned her. She shouldn't love him. Rhaegar has to have flaws, him being perfect would go against everything ASOIAF is about.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

LOL Why people claim Rhaegar was obsessed? Just because he talked about the prophecy maybe twice?

So Aemon was also obsessed?

People assume Rhaegar did everything he did because of a prophecy, and this is not stated in the books.

i was just stating a possibility, we don't have enough info to say for sure whether he was or wasn't obsessed, what we know is that the prophecy has influenced him in some way.

[Kuther2000]

LOL Why people claim Rhaegar was obsessed? Just because he talked about the prophecy maybe twice?

So Aemon was also obsessed?

I think the reason people claim he was obsessed was because of the fact that he read a prophecy. Then decided he needed to be a warrior. He thought that he was the PTWP. Then, he thinks his son is the prince that was promised. He also thinks that the dragon needs three heads. Then he runs off with a highborn girl to presumably have another child that would fit the prophecy.

All of this makes it seem like he lived his life by a prophecy instead of doing things just for himself. Granted the running away was most likely for himself. It is also possible that if Rhaegar hadn't been so enthused about making the prophecy come true. It would probably have still come true naturally.

[Nami]

I think the reason people claim he was obsessed was because of the fact that he read a prophecy. Then decided he needed to be a warrior. He thought that he was the PTWP. Then, he thinks his son is the prince that was promised. He also thinks that the dragon needs three heads. Then he runs off with a highborn girl to presumably have another child that would fit the prophecy.

All of this makes it seem like he lived his life by a prophecy instead of doing things just for himself. Granted the running away was most likely for himself. It is also possible that if Rhaegar hadn't been so enthused about making the prophecy come true. It would probably have still come true naturally.

But Aemon also thought Rhaegar was TPTWP and talked to him constantly about the prophecy. Was he obsessed? Even in his last days he mentioned the prophecy.

Thing is, it was never said directly to us that Rhaegar was obsessed, BY NO ONE, and that he abducted Lyanna because he was desperate for a third child etc. Why most people keep claiming this as a fact? As if it is canon?

[MCBC]

Here's my two cents,

I think Elia was and should be super pissed at Rhaegar. It is perfectly logical for her given that he cheated on her and abandoned her for Lyanna. To me, if Elia was OK with all this and believed in Rhaegar's "prophecies" , that would literally make Rhaegar WAY too perfect. Every other character has in book haters, even the honorable Ned Stark, so should Rhaegar. Secondly, I don't think it would really be feasible for Elia to believe in the prophecy anyway. I mean when reading the books we see that most people don't really believe in all that crazy supernatural stuff (Ned Stark dismisses the Others, Maesters always doubting magic), To me it would be a little far fetched to believe that Elia (whose from a non-magical family) to believe in that stuff even if it was true (which it probably will be). In my opinion, what Rhaegar and Lyanna did was wrong and they both share the blame. Elia has every right to hate Rhaegar. He abandoned her. She shouldn't love him. Rhaegar has to have flaws, him being perfect would go against everything ASOIAF is about.

I see it the same way. It amazes me the theories that people come up when it comes to Rhaegar just so they can absolve him from any wrongdoing. The odds are she was quite pissed off about it because he embarrassed her in front of the entire realm, he bolted for a year & the vision that Dany saw means she knew the reason why he took Lyanna. The prospect of Rhaegar having a child with another women from a great house must have made her very uneasy. Especially in her position as the next Queen in Westeros & for her children as the next to inherit the throne.

Look at Cersei in her paranoia & what she has done to Robert's kids, who aren't even close to having power of their own at all. Imagine Robert had a child with a noble woman from one of the great families of the seven kingdoms. She would have lost it completely.

[Red R'hollr]

Rhaegar knew he needed Lyanna to fulfill the prophecy of ice and fire. Maybe he told Elia about it

[Kuther2000]

But Aemon also thought Rhaegar was TPTWP and talked to him constantly about the prophecy. Was he obsessed? Even in his last days he mentioned the prophecy.

Thing is, it was never said directly to us that Rhaegar was obsessed, BY NO ONE, and that he abducted Lyanna because he was desperate for a third child etc. Why most people keep claiming this as a fact? As if it is canon?

I don't remember it all. I don't know if Aemon really thought that Rhaegar was the Prince or it was Rhaegar who though he was and told Maester Aemon. They consulted about it. Then Rhaegar told Aemon that Aegon was because of the comet.

To Maester Aemon thinking about it in his last days, well, TPTWP was probably supposed to help combat the Others. The dead seemed to be rising. Melissandre had also been talking about TPTWP. There seemed to be word that Dany had hatched dragons which was probably part of the prophecy. I would believe it too after that.

Everything that Rhaegar did seems to correspond with the prophecy so it is not far-fetched to think that readers would assume he was obsessed with it. The prophecy says the prince needs to be a warrior. He tries to become a warrior. The comet comes. Now he believes his son is the prince. He decides that he is also the song of ice and fire. Then decides he needs one more head of the dragon. He already has two children. He runs away with a betrothed highborn girl who every knew he was in love with. Now people think they were trying to make a baby another head of the dragon since his first wife would die from another baby. Yea not really far-fetched at all if you look at what we do know.

[Lala]

We don't know if Elia wanted to leave or not, but we know that Aerys kept her hostage out of paranoia and fear that the Dornish wouldn't be loyal.

I think (I'm not sure if this is text based though, I'm just under this heavy impression) that originally Rhaella and Rhaegar had wanted Elia to leave for Dragonstone with the rest of the royal family, but Aerys insisted on keeping her with him to ensure the loyalty of the Dornish. I remember someone mentioning how chronologically this was after the Battle of the Trident, so Rhaegar was already dead, and that Aerys insisted on doing so because he (in his paranoia) believed that Rhaegar failed because the Dornish betrayed him.

On the other hand, Rhaegar did refuse to let Jaime switch places with another KG knight because he knew that Aerys wanted to keep Jaime as a hostage. I'm just not sure that logic can still be used when we're discussing his attitude towards Rhaegar's own children and wife.

In my head canon, Elia and Rhaegar were fond enough of one another to be practical about the reality of their marriage, and to be considerate of each others' needs and feelings.

Elia was told she would die if she had another child. She didn't have the option of surrogacy, since that kind of medical tech doesn't exist in ASOIAF. It's safe to assume that she cared enough about what was important to him to not be willing to try and prevent or end a third pregnancy if one did result from their marital bed, and he was just obsessed enough with the idea to not be willing to tell her to do so to save herself if the baby was already made.

However, Rhaegar did care about Elia, who had been a good wife and had given him two heads of the dragon. So he likely would've abstained from her bed rather than risk getting her pregnant. But that leaves him without a third head for the dragon, which he wouldn't be able to reconcile, and Elia would not have like seeing him so conflicted.

I think Elia would've suggested a compromise: polyamory doesn't seem to be uncommon in Dornish sentiments, if not in practice. The Targaryens hadn't practiced actual polygamy for a few generations, so I don't think it was Rhaegar's bright idea, no matter how much canon paints it that way. I think she suggested to Rhaegar that he could and should find a suitable girl to become his second wife, and that she would back his play when the time came.

And maybe I'm just being sentimental, but I think Lyanna and Elia might've been friends if they'd had the chance to know one another. Their characters just strike me that way.

I also think that the Tower of Joy being where Rhaegar stashed Lyanna to get her knocked up was also a suggestion of Elia's. There was probably a septon in Dorne that would marry them, and it would be a place to keep Lyanna away from Aerys and the prying eyes of the court while Rhaegar & she worked on getting her pregnant. How much he clued Lyanna in on, IDK, but I don't think Lyanna was an unwilling participant in the process and I think Elia likely gave her some message of assurance that she wasn't going to be met with an incredibly brassed off Wife Number 1 when they did show up at KL married with a baby.

I think if either Elia or Rhaegar had gotten an opportunity to talk to Brandon Stark when he came to KL to throw down and get his sister back, things might've ended differently.

The wheels came off the wagon when Aerys got all murdery on Lyanna's father & biggest brother, and then Robert went apeshit and Ned helped him. Neither Rhaegar nor Elia nor Lyanna would've seen that coming. By the time Lyanna was definitely pregnant and Rhaegar came up for air, the entire situation had been blown out of proportion and half the realm was at war. They never got a chance to explain anything to anyone, and then they were all dead except for Aegriff, Dany, Viserys & Jon. So unless Howland Reed got the whole story from the dying Lyanna or Elia told someone in Dorne that isn't talking, we'll never know for sure.

But her co-engineering the plan with Rhaegar is my head canon, anyway.

Hm~

I also like to think that Rhaegar and Elia had a warm marriage, if not a passionate one. Ser Barristan tells Dany that Rhaegar was fond of Elia and that she was a woman of no mean understanding - she had a clever mind and a sweet wit. However, I'm not necessarily sure that translates into compliance or complicity in the kidnapping of Lyanna. For one thing, based on what I read of Elia, I believe that she had sufficient respect for other people (she was even caring towards bbyTyrion) to shy away from the idea of using another woman as a "baby maker" in any way. If the reason Elia accepted this plan was because she agreed that there needed to be a 3rd child, I find this behavior very at odds with my understanding of Elia's character.

More importantly, I'm also one of those people who don't believe that Lyanna "eloped" because she loved Rhaegar - based on what I know about Lyanna, I believe that she is a young girl who was in love, yes, but not with a man, but with the idea of a choice, of having some semblance of agency in her life. I find it difficult to see Lyanna consenting to "trying to make a baby" and being locked up in the ToJ - a direwolf is no pet - and am of the opinion that the 3 KG knights were as much there to protect her as to imprison her.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I think (I'm not sure if this is text based though, I'm just under this heavy impression) that originally Rhaella and Rhaegar had wanted Elia to leave for Dragonstone with the rest of the royal family, but Aerys insisted on keeping her with him to ensure the loyalty of the Dornish. I remember someone mentioning how chronologically this was after the Battle of the Trident, so Rhaegar was already dead, and that Aerys insisted on doing so because he (in his paranoia) believed that Rhaegar failed because the Dornish betrayed him.

On the other hand, Rhaegar did refuse to let Jaime switch places with another KG knight because he knew that Aerys wanted to keep Jaime as a hostage. I'm just not sure that logic can still be used when we're discussing his attitude towards Rhaegar's own children and wife.

Hm~

I also like to think that Rhaegar and Elia had a warm marriage, if not a passionate one. Ser Barristan tells Dany that Rhaegar was fond of Elia and that she was a woman of no mean understanding - she had a clever mind and a sweet wit. However, I'm not necessarily sure that translates into compliance or complicity in the kidnapping of Lyanna. For one thing, based on what I read of Elia, I believe that she had sufficient respect for other people (she was even caring towards bbyTyrion) to shy away from the idea of using another woman as a "baby maker" in any way. If the reason Elia accepted this plan was because she agreed that there needed to be a 3rd child, I find this behavior very at odds with my understanding of Elia's character.

More importantly, I'm also one of those people who don't believe that Lyanna "eloped" because she loved Rhaegar - based on what I know about Lyanna, I believe that she is a young girl who was in love, yes, but not with a man, but with the idea of a choice, of having some semblance of agency in her life. I find it difficult to see Lyanna consenting to "trying to make a baby" and being locked up in the ToJ - a direwolf is no pet - and am of the opinion that the 3 KG knights were as much there to protect her as to imprison her.

Yea I have that impression of Lyanna aswell, maybe she threatened Rhaegar of saying something and she "woke the dragon"?

[Lala]

Yea I have that impression of Lyanna aswell, maybe she threatened Rhaegar of saying something and she "woke the dragon"?

Hmm that's certainly possible. We know that even the more well-balanced members of the Targaryen family like Dany (to the haters: no matter what you think, she's more well-balanced than Vis and Aerys, okay?) are capable of taking relatively extreme measures when someone "wakes the dragon." There's very little reason to believe that Rhaegar was any different.

Disclaimer: I'm terribly sorry to any R+L shippers for this

I do believe Rhaegar raped her. Not necessarily Gregor-style, but more that they had sex, and it wasn't entirely consensual on Lyanna's part even if she didn't say "no." On the other hand, I also think he loved her, but that he also loved the idea of the prophecy more - basically, Rhaegar loved Lyanna, but not enough to let her be free (so Lyanna ironically traded one cage for another)

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Hmm that's certainly possible. We know that even the more well-balanced members of the Targaryen family like Dany (to the haters: no matter what you think, she's more well-balanced than Vis and Aerys, okay?) are capable of taking relatively extreme measures when someone "wakes the dragon." There's very little reason to believe that Rhaegar was any different.

Disclaimer: I'm terribly sorry to any R+L shippers for this

I do believe Rhaegar raped her. Not necessarily Gregor-style, but more that they had sex, and it wasn't entirely consensual on Lyanna's part even if she didn't say "no." On the other hand, I also think he loved her, but that he also loved the idea of the prophecy more - basically, Rhaegar loved Lyanna, but not enough to let her be free (so Lyanna ironically traded one cage for another)

Nice post, Its interesting that most targs have a goal that ultimately consumes them, like Vis wanted to be king, Aerys was on a whole other level and one can argue Aegon the fifth was obsessed with bringing dragon eggs to life like most targs, Rhaegar may have been obsessed with the prophecy aswell and may have done anything possible for it to happen.

[Nami]

I bet Lyanna was there because she wanted to and was selfish

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

Lyanna definitely woke his dragon

[Lala]

Nice post, Its interesting that most targs have a goal that ultimately consumes them, like Vis wanted to be king, Aerys was on a whole other level and one can argue Aegon the fifth was obsessed with bringing dragon eggs to life like most targs, Rhaegar may have been obsessed with the prophecy aswell and may have done anything possible for it to happen.

Thank you! That's an interesting thought~ I sincerely hope (as a Dany fan) that she doesn't travel down this road as well - or at least that she realizes what is truly important to her, rather than letting herself be blinded by desires that are not her own~

I bet Lyanna was there because she wanted to and was selfish

I think that's an unfair characterization of Lyanna. We know that when some squires were attacking her father's bannermen, she stood up for them and drove the squires away. She appears to have been willful, yes, but also very compassionate. It also grates against my logic that a young woman who did not want to be bound by marriage would run away only to agree to be locked in a tower for the remainder of her life.