How Do You Think Elia Thought About Lyanna?

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

Let's also put the timeline in context.

-Elia and Rhaegar are married, and are at the very least fond of each other. Elia has provided Rhaegar an female child, Rhaenys.

-Rhaegar passes by Elia and names Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty.

-Rhaegar goes back to his wife, they have a male child, Aegon.

-Rhaegar and Elia learn it is too dangerous for them to have another child, so he runs off with Lyanna.

To me, she was probably pissed at first, when insulted by Rhaegar by being passed over for Lyanna. Maybe he explained about the Knight of the Laughing Tree, if it was in fact Lyanna, and that smoothed things over enough for him to get an heir out of her.

When it was no longer safe to have another child, she was probably at least open to the idea of him taking a mistress, especially if she believed they needed a third head for the dragon. Personally, I don't believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, so I don't see that as being an issue.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

This. Unless Elia is a member of Rhaegar's creepy AA breeding cult.

:lol:

Poor Elia :frown5:

Ugh, I hate Rhaegar just because what happened to Elia and her children. I mean COME ON DUDE !?

[Nami]

:lol:

Poor Elia :frown5:

Ugh, I hate Rhaegar just because what happened to Elia and her children. I mean COME ON DUDE !?

Me too. I have conflicted feelings about Rhaegar

I hate him for what happened to Elia and poor little Rhaenys, but still he is a fascinating character to me

[Pikachu101]

Me too. I have conflicted feelings about Rhaegar

I hate him for what happened to Elia and poor little Rhaenys, but still he is a fascinating character to me

You don't have to like a character's personality to find them fascinating. I absolutely adore Cersei's PoVs, but I cannot stand her as a human being

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Me too. I have conflicted feelings about Rhaegar

I hate him for what happened to Elia and poor little Rhaenys, but still he is a fascinating character to me

Me too I can't believe soo many people always say he would of been a good king

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

You don't have to like a character's personality to find them fascinating. I absolutely adore Cersei's PoVs, but I cannot stand her as a human being

I actually like her as a human being, especially when she is being a bitch

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

We don't know enough about Rhaegar to know he would be a good king or not. To be a good king you have to understand politics and be able to act in your political interests or be a puppet for someone who knows what they are doing. With th little we know about him it seems he doesn't really understand politics with the "kidnapping" of Lyanna. But for all we know he tred to stop te ramifications or he just ignored them.

[Nami]

I don't like this whole saint views we have on these dead characters

Maybe Lyanna was a selfish bitch that chased after Rhaegar and didn't give a f*ck about the consequences

Maybe Elia was pissed off and tearing her hair out about R+L affair and even slapped R across the face

I doubt Lyanna was this innocent seduced victim who suddenly had a change of heart or tried to leave a message to her family

I don't want any of them to be flawless

[Luthien Targaryen]

I think Elia knew and consented, she might even have introduced Lyanna to Rhaegar. Two of of the Kingsguard are Dornishmen, one is her own uncle, and the Dornish are remarkably reluctant to enter into the conflict on anyone's side. If Elia felt in any way slighted all she needed to do was send a raven to Sunspear and complain and Rhaegar would have had Oberyn and Lewyn ( and possibly Doran, but i get the impression that he's the thinker not the fighter, even in his younger, healthier days) on his back before you could say "Ice and Fire". Then you have the fact that Lyanna was being "hidden" on Dornish soil, protected by a Dornish knight, Ser Arthur Dayne.

Elia's children would still have taken precedence over any other child of Rhaegar's for the Iron Throne, and i suspect that what Dorne and House Martell wanted was a Martell child on the Iron Throne. With this in mind, and that there was the possibility that Aegon could marry Rhaenys, i suspect that Elia was happy for Rhaegar to take a paramour.

Then there's the possibility that she and House Martell were sold on the PTWP and the 3 headed dragon. Elia knew she could have no more children and may have wanted to secure her husband's happiness and was happy for another woman to take up the responsibility.

But basically i think it was all part of the Game, and the Martells were playing as a team. Lyanna was the chosen piece.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I could understand if this was said about someone who never had any living children. But this is not the case for Elia. She has two healthy children. A change that could be made is to take out the Targaryen system and go to the system where males are ahead of females but females come before uncles. Rhaella also only had two children. Cersei only had three. Jaehaerys II only had two children too.

I totally understand where you are coming from, because you were focused on the negative connotation of the word. I just wanted you to know that I didn't mean it as an insult against Elia, since the word barren can be used for women that have already produced healthy children.

That would have been an option, but the succession becomes a lot more complicated when you no longer have male sons in the succession. Things run a lot smoother when there are multiple males (preferably brothers) in line for the succession. A queen's main purpose is to produce male heirs, sad...but true.

Rhaella had three children and died in childbirth. If she had lived and remained queen, she would have been expected to produce more heirs. Jaehaerys was sickly, so he probably had a big part to play in the number of children he produced. Cersei was expected to remarry and produce more heirs before her "change" is upon her.

Elia would have been smart enough to see the benefits of accepting a second wife into the fold, especially considering Rhaegar's obsession with the prophecy.

[Kuther2000]

I totally understand where you are coming from, because you were focused on the negative connotation of the word. I just wanted you to know that I didn't mean it as an insult against Elia, since the word barren can be used for women that have already produced healthy children.

That would have been an option, but the succession becomes a lot more complicated when you no longer have male sons in the succession. Things run a lot smoother when there are multiple males (preferably brothers) in line for the succession. A queen's main purpose is to produce male heirs, sad...but true.

Rhaella had three children and died in childbirth. If she had lived and remained queen, she would have been expected to produce more heirs. Jaehaerys was sickly, so he probably had a big part to play in the number of children he produced. Cersei was expected to remarry and produce more heirs before her "change" is upon her.

Elia would have been smart enough to see the benefits of accepting a second wife into the fold, especially considering Rhaegar's obsession with the prophecy.

For the longest, Rhaella only had two children. She probably didn't expect to have any more until Aerys got all rapey. Cersei was expected to do this because there were rumors going on about the fact that her children were not her husband The King's children which was completely true. The only reason to do this so the rumors would end.

There are no good benefits with taking a second wife for Elia. The only benefit is that you don't have to produce any more children. The downside of this is huge you are essentially allowing in heirs from another maternal bloodline. Why would any family marry their daughter to the King if not to have influence and have their child and bloodline be the next King. That can take away from your own children's inheritance. It also can potentially put your children's life in danger. Aegon has an "accident" to make way for Lyanna's child.

After Rhaegar dies, the succession should be secure only its not. Lyanna's son says that Rhaegar wanted him to be king because he truly loved Lyanna. You know what this child also has the bigger army backing him. He is the grandson/nephew of the Lord of Winterfell. His aunt is the daughter/sister of the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. His uncle's foster father is the Lord of the Eyrie. The Tyrells have always been antagonistic with Dorne. Tywin Lannister will back the winner. This war should be clearcut so guess who he backs. Who is there for Dorne? The Baratheons. They will probably stay neutral. The Greyjoys. Nope. Let's not forget the prejudice that the Dornish face. It helped in the makings of a succession war by the Blackfyres.

Who wouldn't be threatened by that? It would make Elia delusional and insane if she didn't think about this. Other posters are saying that Elia she should feel threatened for a reason. It is not Elia's feelings that she should be thinking about. It is the lives of her children that she should be worried about.

Rhaegar could have said this is not the case. What can he do if he is dead? The will and succession has been bypassed before. Maegor becoming King instead of Jaehaerys I first. Rhaeynra whose fathers own will stated his choice and who everyone knew to be the rightful heir. Forgive her if she didn't take Rhaegar's word for it.

Her accepting another wife is not smart. That is delusional.

[Anath]

Elia would have been smart enough to see the benefits of accepting a second wife into the fold, especially considering Rhaegar's obsession with the prophecy.

What benefits? To Elia, there are none.

Again, I'll say that Targaryens had long ago ceased their poligamy. Even Aegon the Unworthy only had one wife - and the Dragonknight entered a tournament specifically to prevent Aegon's current mistress to be crowned Queen of Love and Beauty because it would have been a huge insult to the Queen. The same Queen that had tried to twist herself free of her marriage, so it isn't as her love feelings would have been hurt. It would have been her pride.

Rhaegar crowning Lyanna over Elia was bad enough. Casting the old custom of one wife only aside to Elia's detriment would have been even a greater offense. It would mean that he was showing to the world that Elia was not good enough for him and unless he was willing to go around the Seven Kingdoms barefoot and explain about the prophecy to every lord, septon, man-at-arms and whore, Elia's authority, Dorne's authority and her children's positions would have suffered.

About the succession I second what Kuther2000 wrote.

If Elia was smart, she would have been terrified of "accepting a second wife into the fold". Lyanna would give birth to children but they would not be Elia's like the baby in story of Sarah and Abraham. By the way, that didn't end all that well either. The moment Sarah gave birth to a child of her own, Abraham's son by the slave girl became an enemy.

Elia's duty was to her children and Dorne. Lyanna would have been a great problem. No accepting. None. Besides, Elia had done her duty, producing two healthy heirs, so using the fact that she should have no more as an excuse to marry Lyanna would have been accepted by virtually no one.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

For the longest, Rhaella only had two children. She probably didn't expect to have any more until Aerys got all rapey. Cersei was expected to do this because there were rumors going on about the fact that her children were not her husband The King's children which was completely true. The only reason to do this so the rumors would end.

There are no good benefits with taking a second wife for Elia. The only benefit is that you don't have to produce any more children. The downside of this is huge you are essentially allowing in heirs from another maternal bloodline. Why would any family marry their daughter to the King if not to have influence and have their child and bloodline be the next King. That can take away from your own children's inheritance. It also can potentially put your children's life in danger. Aegon has an "accident" to make way for Lyanna's child.

After Rhaegar dies, the succession should be secure only its not. Lyanna's son says that Rhaegar wanted him to be king because he truly loved Lyanna. You know what this child also has the bigger army backing him. He is the grandson/nephew of the Lord of Winterfell. His aunt is the daughter/sister of the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. His uncle's foster father is the Lord of the Eyrie. The Tyrells have always been antagonistic with Dorne. Tywin Lannister will back the winner. This war should be clearcut so guess who he backs. Who is there for Dorne? The Baratheons. They will probably stay neutral. The Greyjoys. Nope.

Who wouldn't be threatened by that? It would make Elia delusional and insane if she didn't think about this. Other posters are saying that Elia she should feel threatened for a reason. It is not Elia's feelings that she should be thinking about. It is the lives of her children that she should be worried about.

Her accepting another wife is not smart. That is delusional.

Firstly, I never said that Elia shouldn't feel threatened.

Secondly, Elia would be smart for accepting Lyanna as the second wife for all the reasons you just listed. If Rhaegar was hell bent on being with Lyanna, which I believe he was, accepting Lyanna is the lesser of two evils.

Don't accept Lyanna as the second wife: War

Accept Lyanna as the second wife: Possible War

ETA: Rhaegar was the crown prince and heir to the throne. If he wanted Lyanna as his bride, he would have Lyanna as his bride. As you stated, Lyanna's military strength was a lot stronger than Elia's. It's all about politics, and politically Rhaegar could have found a way to get rid of Elia...political maneuvering = Westeros version of 'divorce'.

[Anath]

Not accepting a second wife doesn't mean war necessarily. There are many ways in which Elia could have tried to thwart the union and she would have been a fool not to use them.

Especially so soon after the last, well, war caused because Rhaegar and Lyanna thought they were so smart by acting openly on their feelings and the consequences turned out to be greater than they anticipated (if they stopped to think about that at all), no one in their right mind would act so openly.

And not accepting Lyanna doesn't mean war either. The realm has barely ended one. Rhaegar would have been mad to think that he could survive another one so soon - and because of his luuuuv again. Besides, he couldn't undermine the position of his PWWP, at least until the next prophecy told him that his children by Elia were an obstacle in the way in which case they would be removed.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

What benefits? To Elia, there are none.

Retaining her title as queen was the number one benefit for her and her little prince and princess.

Again, I'll say that Targaryens had long ago ceased their poligamy. Even Aegon the Unworthy only had one wife - and the Dragonknight entered a tournament specifically to prevent Aegon's current mistress to be crowned Queen of Love and Beauty because it would have been a huge insult to the Queen. The same Queen that had tried to twist herself free of her marriage, so it isn't as her love feelings would have been hurt. It would have been her pride.

The Targaryen precedent for polygamy had been created, and that is what matters. Rhaegar was obviously obsessed with the "three headed dragon"--Aegon and his two sister wives--he even named his children after them. There is serious cause to assume that Rhaegar would be okay with polygamy. In terms of royal marriages; feelings, pride, and love rarely mean as much as power. Elia did not have the power to oppose Rhaegar.

Rhaegar crowning Lyanna over Elia was bad enough. Casting the old custom of one wife only aside to Elia's detriment would have been even a greater offense.

If I'm not mistaken, GRRM has stated that more Targaryren kings may have practiced polygamy. The realm excused their incest, polygamy is not that huge of a leap, especially if it keeps Elia's family in the royal circle.

It would mean that he was showing to the world that Elia was not good enough for him and unless he was willing to go around the Seven Kingdoms barefoot and explain about the prophecy to every lord, septon, man-at-arms and whore, Elia's authority, Dorne's authority and her children's positions would have suffered.

How is that Rhaegar's problem? Three heads of the dragon is his end game, including the hand of a beautiful maiden that he believes can provide him the child he so desperately desires.

About the succession I second what Kuther2000 wrote.

If Elia was smart, she would have been terrified of "accepting a second wife into the fold". Lyanna would give birth to children but they would not be Elia's like the baby in story of Sarah and Abraham. By the way, that didn't end all that well either. The moment Sarah gave birth to a child of her own, Abraham's son by the slave girl became an enemy.

Elia's duty was to her children and Dorne. Lyanna would have been a great problem. No accepting. None. Besides, Elia had done her duty, producing two healthy heirs, so using the fact that she should have no more as an excuse to marry Lyanna would have been accepted by virtually no one.

Elia's duty was to her king, the moment she became queen. As queen, her duty to her king is to produce heirs and provide stability for her family and her House. The moment she became unable to bear children she was no longer doing her duty. Tough luck if the king doesn't love/care for her enough to protect her image. The moment he decided to take another woman was the moment Elia had to go into survival mode and start making some tough decisions.

In my view...

[Theda Baratheon]

We actually know enough to draw some pretty definitive conclusions.

1. Elia was a woman.
   
   
2. Elia was a mother.
   

So, its quite obvious Elia thought Lyanna was a home-wrecker, a gold digger, probably slept with Robbert before jumping ship to a the bigger prize, and utterly without redeeming qualities.

Don't try to bring reason or rationality into this, basic human instinct says women do not abide rivals for their man.

Is this for real, or....

[SkaggCannibal]

Not accepting Lyanna would mean war? I don't think so, but surely it would be one she could win. A marriage with two persons would be an offence in sight of the Seven, it wouldn't be stupid for Elia to not accept it, it would be stupid of Rhaeger to try to enforce it. Surely a High Septon can never agree on such a marriage, any truelly godly Lords would take up arms against it. It seems as if some people find a second marriage normal. It isn't, it's an abomination and a crime. Elia should deny it because of her children, her honour and her faith. Only way she could ever be ok with it, if she was a crazy prophecy-believing Selyse (which could be).

[C0bR]

If Elia was so ok with all of it, why was it needed to held her hostage in KL? If she had no problem with Rhaegar, she would not have wanted to leave and Dorne would have actually sent some help, instead of few forced levies.

[TheMysteriousOne]

If Elia was so ok with all of it, why was it needed to held her hostage in KL? If she had no problem with Rhaegar, she would not have wanted to leave and Dorne would have actually sent some help, instead of few forced levies.

Aerys was crazy.

[C0bR]

Aerys was crazy.

There is a difference between being held hostage and actually wanting to stay in the place, because you have no problem with your husband and you don't want to leave.