Was Lyanna Dying the Best Thing for Jon?

[Mr Hodor]

This is under the assumption that R+L=J and...It's gotten to the point where I'm not much of a believer. Too many people speaking about that theory as if it's already fact, when in fact it isn't.

Its like 3EC is Bloodraven. The text doesn't say it but there are enough hints to assume it is true.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I wonder how the forum would react if Rhaegar is not Jon's father? Please don't personal attack me I didn't say he is not his father.

[Nami]

I wonder how the forum would react if Rhaegar is not Jon's father? Please don't personal attack me I didn't say he is not his father.

But how could he be Lyanna's son and Rhaegar is not the father?

He was conceived when Lyanna was with Rhaegar and two KG. Unless you believe Arthur Dayne or Whent could be his father

[Ygrain]

I wonder how the forum would react if Rhaegar is not Jon's father? Please don't personal attack me I didn't say he is not his father.

That would depend if GRRM managed to an alternative explanation for all the evidence pointing towards R+L without being convoluted. Then, I guess, everyone would be laughing how he got us. If not, it would be considered a case of very bad writing.

Edited for spelling.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

But how could he be Lyanna's son and Rhaegar is not the father?

He was conceived when Lyanna was with Rhaegar and two KG. Unless you believe Arthur Dayne or Whent could be his father

Idk its just that the discovery seems so easy( 2 people in a tower, woman dies, and brother comes with a bastard child), even people I know that aren't deep readers and don't visit the forum suspect it. But the series has reached too far and I doubt there is a twist on R+L=J

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

That would depend if GRRM managed to an alternative explanation for all the evidence pointing towards R+L without being convoluted. Then, I guess, everyone would be alughing how he got us. If not, it would be considered a case of very bad writing.

Yea it would be bad writing, I think its too late in the series for twists.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I wish GRRM didn't give soo much away in book one, it would of been an interesting twist in the series.

[Nausicaä]

I wonder how the forum would react if Rhaegar is not Jon's father? Please don't personal attack me I didn't say he is not his father.

I would embrace it if it was Arthur who provided half of bio material. Since he was there the entire time, it wouldn't change anything about the timing, the actions of the KG, etc. And personally, an Arthur/Lyanna love story going on behind Rhaegar's and the other KG's backs would make me cackle in glee and jump up and down in joy. I don't believe it, though. I pretty much see R+ L = J as canon, even if it's unconfirmed.

[Ygrain]

I would embrace it if it was Arthur who provided half of bio material. Since he was there the entire time, it wouldn't change anything about the timing, the actions of the KG, etc. And personally, an Arthur/Lyanna love story going on behind Rhaegar's and the other KG's backs would make me cackle in glee and jump up and down in joy. I don't believe it, though. I pretty much see R+ L = J as canon, even if it's unconfirmed.

It would - Arthur guarding his bastard would be Arthur the Oathbreaker since he would not be fulfilling his duty to Viserys.

[Pikachu101]

People understimate the power of the North.

Ned wouldnt had allowed it and there would still be a crapload of Lords willing to back up Rhaegars son claim, if people bent the knee to Robert is because he had the combined might of Storm End, the North and the Vale, if Robert went the route of trying to get Lyanna he would had the North and Dorne against him

I really don't think they would.

1. They lost Brandon and Rickard because of her

2. They lost loved ones because of this war that was based on the assumption she was kidnapped

3. They're going to hate Lyanna, and if it was rape then they're going to hate Jon

4. The whole purpose was to overthrow the Targs, they're not going to suddenly put another one on

5. The realm was torn from war, why would they start another one?

6. Ned wouldn't try and put a baby on the throne he's too wise to be blinded by power

7. Would Lyanna do that to her own son?

8. Jon's legitimacy is far too shaky, Elizabeth Woodville's sons were rendered bastards because her and Edward IV had a secret marriage. I don't see why this would be any different

9. Why would Dorne help them? The whole Lyanna and Jon escapade is just a huge slap on their face

10. I don't think Robert would want Lyanna back, not after she's become "used goods"

[Rod123]

I really don't think they would.

1. They lost Brandon and Rickard because of her

2. They lost loved ones because of this war that was based on the assumption she was kidnapped

3. They're going to hate Lyanna, and if it was rape then they're going to hate Jon

4. The whole purpose was to overthrow the Targs, they're not going to suddenly put another one on

5. The realm was torn from war, why would they start another one?

6. Ned wouldn't try and put a baby on the throne he's too wise to be blinded by power

7. Would Lyanna do that to her own son?

8. Jon's legitimacy is far too shaky, Elizabeth Woodville's sons were rendered bastards because her and Edward IV had a secret marriage. I don't see why this would be any different

9. Why would Dorne help them? The whole Lyanna and Jon escapade is just a huge slap on their face

10. I don't think Robert would want Lyanna back, not after she's become "used goods"

I really don't think they would.

1. They lost Brandon and Rickard because of her

2. They lost loved ones because of this war that was based on the assumption she was kidnapped

3. They're going to hate Lyanna, and if it was rape then they're going to hate Jon

4. The whole purpose was to overthrow the Targs, they're not going to suddenly put another one on

5. The realm was torn from war, why would they start another one?

6. Ned wouldn't try and put a baby on the throne he's too wise to be blinded by power

7. Would Lyanna do that to her own son?

8. Jon's legitimacy is far too shaky, Elizabeth Woodville's sons were rendered bastards because her and Edward IV had a secret marriage. I don't see why this would be any different

9. Why would Dorne help them? The whole Lyanna and Jon escapade is just a huge slap on their face

10. I don't think Robert would want Lyanna back, not after she's become "used goods"

1.- Still she is a Stark and Ned is a honorable man. Aerys is dead so that blood feud is closed

2.- The war started because of how Aerys reacted and he was dead already.

3.- They are going to hate Lyanna, sure, that doesnt means the northmen would be all happy at a southron lord invading their country for revenge.

4.- The purpose was to depose the Mad King, Robert only got to be king because he was a "targ" somehow, and thats what kept the country united.

5.- Exactly, for Ned to save Lyanna he would just need to reach the north. Robert wouldnt dare a war.

6.- Of course he wouldnt, he doesnt needs to seat Jon to save him and Lyanna.

7.- That depends on Robert's actions.

9.- Fire and Blood, revenge against the Lannisters.

10.- Of course.

[Pikachu101]

1.- Still she is a Stark and Ned is a honorable man. Aerys is dead so that blood feud is closed

If Ned was honourable and wise he'd make sure people know that Jon isn't a threat. He would never do something as ludicrous as wage another war just to put a baby on the throne.

2.- The war started because of how Aerys reacted and he was dead already.

People are still going to blame her because:

A) she's a woman, women always get blamed

B ) Brandon and Rickard went South because of her

C) she's an easy target to blame the death of their loved ones on

3.- They are going to hate Lyanna, sure, that doesnt means the northmen would be all happy at a southron lord invading their country for revenge.

Whose invading for revenge? I was replying to the statement that thinks the North would try to but a baby in the throne. That would cause war and I don't think they'll get any support for it.

4.- The purpose was to depose the Mad King, Robert only got to be king because he was a "targ" somehow, and thats what kept the country united.

Yes, they united under Robert; his Targ blood was just for show he would've still become king without it. Take William the Conqueror for example; he had no real claim to the English throne.

5.- Exactly, for Ned to save Lyanna he would just need to reach the north. Robert wouldnt dare a war.

The North is the one waging war because they're trying to put Jon on the throne.

6.- Of course he wouldnt, he doesnt needs to seat Jon to save him and Lyanna.

But that was the whole point of my criticism, the idea that Ned would try and crown Jon

9.- Fire and Blood, revenge against the Lannisters.

Lyanna and Jon are just a slap on their face, they lose Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon but those two get to live. I have a hard time seeing them accept the girl who tried to dismantle Elia

[BryndenStark]

its about as close as it can get to being fact without it being a fact

Which is exactly why it isn't a fact - it's simply too obvious. Have you never heard of the phrase "If it's too good to be true, it probably isn't.". Like someone said before (Can't remember where), it sets up Jon to be the cliche 'last hope' for humanity who's destined to bring peace to his lands and everyone lives happily every after. That's not the world Martin has presented to us; in fact, this fantasy world is much like our own in which nothing is a sure-bet (To some extent).

Its like 3EC is Bloodraven. The text doesn't say it but there are enough hints to assume it is true.

That's what's known as a red-herring my friend - Martin has already shown us how assuming anything to be true usually backfires (Usually in the case of that which is most obvious in his novels).

[C0bR]

I wonder how the forum would react if Rhaegar is not Jon's father? Please don't personal attack me I didn't say he is not his father.

More like how would the forum react if Jon was in fact born of rape.

(weee, connection to Dany! Jon/Dany!)

[Pikachu101]

More like how would the forum react if Jon was in fact born of rape.

I really don't want that to be true because I know for a fact fans are going to try and justify it to make Rhaegar look like a good guy <_<