Stannis's Decision to have Renly killed (long post).

[The Great Walrus]

I...I can't believe what I'm hearing. KILL your own brother? For a crown?

Well you're basically saying that you'd let your brother take everything that was rightfully yours.

[StannisBamfatheon]

Loras, for one.

I...I can't believe what I'm hearing. KILL your own brother? For a crown?

Renly was prepared to do the same, for a crown that was his for no other reason than hegemony.

[Mladen]

Loras, for one.

Let me give you out one secret. The scene from TV show NEVER HAPPENED. Loras is far younger and inexperienced to toy with Renly. Renly was the one who organized everything...

[TheMysteriousOne]

I'm actually not sure what I would in Stannis' position. Just thinking of me killing my brother leaves a bad taste in my mouth, even if he tried to kill me; but if I did end up killing Renly, I don't think that I would ever forgive myself.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Maybe fathering a shadowbaby has somehow made Stannis sterile? This would parallel Dany's sacrifice for her dragons.

Apparently I'm one of the few who enjoyed this twist. It served as a stern warning both to the readers and the Southron that magic is growing strong again. We warned when Catelyn made the comment "they are the knights of summer, and winter is coming."

People shouldn't be surprised at this kind of thing. We were introduced to the magic portion of the story right away in the prologue of AGOT. ASOIAF is more gritty and realistic than fantasy usually is, but it is still fantasy.

[Phewdi]

Well you're basically saying that you'd let your brother take everything that was rightfully yours.

No. I wouldn't. I would try to reason with him further, explain to him why it was mine and that I would give him plenty of the rewards etc.

I'm actually not sure what I would in Stannis' position. Just thinking of me killing my brother leaves a bad taste in my mouth, even if he tried to kill me; but if I did end up killing Renly, I don't think that I would ever forgive myself.

Neither would I, which is why I don't see how these guys could actually just say, Yep I'd do the same. It's FRATRICIDE.

Let me give you out one secret. The scene from TV show NEVER HAPPENED. Loras is far younger and inexperienced to toy with Renly. Renly was the one who organized everything...

How do you know? It is never stated explicity in the books, it never told us much concerning Renly and Loras. Where do you think the TV writers got it?

Renly was prepared to do the same, for a crown that was his for no other reason than hegemony.

But from Renly's view, the crown wasn't Stannis' either. It was Joffrey's, but he knew that Joffrey would be a shitty King so he wanted to step in, knowing that no one would take Stannis for their King.

[E-Ro]

Killing renly was not just about a crown, it was about upholding the law.

In the long-term, however, it's an extremely dangerous political theory for the stability of the Westerosi monarchy. Renly has the most troops at that moment, but there's no way to be sure that Renly or his descendant, or his descendant's descendant will have the same numerical advantage in the future. If his argument is accepted as binding precedent, Renly will forever have to remain on his guard lest someone out there strike while he is unaware since it's now accepted that a strongman can legitimately overthrow a sitting king. Even if he succeeded in holding the Iron Throne for the duration of his natural life, the odds are good that his death will set off a new civil war as each of the Great Houses assesses the new balance of power.

Inheritance by blood is not a political principle that most of us accept today, but in its time it promised stability and a predictable consistency in the transition of power. When the alternative isn't representative government or an elective mandate but rather military strength, the results are brutal and chaotic, as the Romans found out. Augustus was able to sweep away the Republic and found an Empire largely because the public was terrified of the wars, assassinations, and purges that marked the period between the death of Julius Caesar and the end of the Antonian-Octavian civil war. Likewise, as much as the paranoia, tyranny, and outright madness of the Julio-Claudian dynasty was seen afterwards as preferable to the chaos of the "Year of Four Emperors," which saw legionary uprisings, inter-legionary, Galba's purges, more rebellions, the assassination of Galba at Otho's instigation, Otho's defeat at the hands of Vitellius, Vitellius' turn to murder and confiscation as a solution to imperial bankruptcy, and so on and so forth. Likewise, the death of Commodus in AD 192 gave the Romans the "Year of Five Emperors," where Pertinax was assassinated by the Praetorian Guard and the imperial title auctioned by the Praetorian Guard, and three rival emperors emerging in Syria, Britain, and Pannonia.

And don't even get me started on the "Year of Six Emperors"...

That is what stannis is preventing. All out war every time a king dies as all his kids scramble for the throne.

[Som Tin Wong]

That is what stannis is preventing. All out war every time a king dies as all his kids scramble for the throne.

I don't think this idea has even crossed Stannis' mind.

[Wise Fool]

Even if Loras "toyed" Renly, that doesn't make Renly not responsible for his actions. Loras basically just stroked his ego (etc) and said "you should totally be king." Better men than Renly have resisted such, knowing that there is such a thing as "right" that goes above and beyond "feels right." But Renly wanted to be king from birth.

And even if Renly knew that Joffrey was illegitimate and that Stannis by the laws of primogeniture was king, that wouldn't have changed Renly's position at all. "He may have the better claim," Renly allowed to Catelyn. "But I'm totally stronger, so nyah nyah nyah." (I may be paraphrasing here.)

[Phewdi]

Killing renly was not just about a crown, it was about upholding the law.

In the long-term, however, it's an extremely dangerous political theory for the stability of the Westerosi monarchy. Renly has the most troops at that moment, but there's no way to be sure that Renly or his descendant, or his descendant's descendant will have the same numerical advantage in the future. If his argument is accepted as binding precedent, Renly will forever have to remain on his guard lest someone out there strike while he is unaware since it's now accepted that a strongman can legitimately overthrow a sitting king. Even if he succeeded in holding the Iron Throne for the duration of his natural life, the odds are good that his death will set off a new civil war as each of the Great Houses assesses the new balance of power.

Inheritance by blood is not a political principle that most of us accept today, but in its time it promised stability and a predictable consistency in the transition of power. When the alternative isn't representative government or an elective mandate but rather military strength, the results are brutal and chaotic, as the Romans found out. Augustus was able to sweep away the Republic and found an Empire largely because the public was terrified of the wars, assassinations, and purges that marked the period between the death of Julius Caesar and the end of the Antonian-Octavian civil war. Likewise, as much as the paranoia, tyranny, and outright madness of the Julio-Claudian dynasty was seen afterwards as preferable to the chaos of the "Year of Four Emperors," which saw legionary uprisings, inter-legionary, Galba's purges, more rebellions, the assassination of Galba at Otho's instigation, Otho's defeat at the hands of Vitellius, Vitellius' turn to murder and confiscation as a solution to imperial bankruptcy, and so on and so forth. Likewise, the death of Commodus in AD 192 gave the Romans the "Year of Five Emperors," where Pertinax was assassinated by the Praetorian Guard and the imperial title auctioned by the Praetorian Guard, and three rival emperors emerging in Syria, Britain, and Pannonia.

And don't even get me started on the "Year of Six Emperors"...

That is what stannis is preventing. All out war every time a king dies as all his kids scramble for the throne.

Ah, he has arrived. E-ro, the largest and fiercest Stag of the Stannis troupe. Though fierce in defending and protecting his One Hopeless King, and none are fiercer, his rage is worse than his reason. It is steam he bears, not logic.

[The Great Walrus]

Ah, he has arrived. E-ro, the largest and fiercest Stag of the Stannis troupe. Though fierce in defending and protecting his One Hopeless King, and none are fiercer, his rage is worse than his reason. It is steam he bears, not logic.

Seems you can't counter his argument, and have been reduced to personal attacks.

[E-Ro]

I don't think this idea has even crossed Stannis' mind.

You would be wrong, the law and consequences of his actions are foremost in stannis' mind.

”Rise ser Davos,” Stannis commanded. “I have missed you ser. I have need of good counsel, and you never gave me less. So tell me true—what is the penalty for treason?” “Treason?” He finally managed, weakly. “What else would you call it, to deny your king and seek to steal his rightful throne. I ask you again—what is the penalty for treason under the law?” Davos had no choice but to answer. “Death,” he said. “The penalty is death, your grace.” “It has always been so. I am not… I am not a cruel man, ser Davos. You know me. Have known me long, this is not my decree. It has always been so, since Aegons day and before. Daemon Blackfyre, the brothers Toyne, the vulture king, grand master Hareth… Traitors have always paid with their lives… even Rhaneyra Targeryan She was daughter to one king and mother to two more, yet she died a traitors death for trying to usurp her brothers crown. It is law, Davos. Not cruelty.”

Ah, he has arrived. E-ro, the largest and fiercest Stag of the Stannis troupe. Though fierce in defending and protecting his One Hopeless King, and none are fiercer, his rage is worse than his reason. It is steam he bears, not logic.

While I am thrilled my dominance is being acknowledged, i am not fully sure of the point of this post? You didn't refute any of my points, just said some stuff about me being an alpha(like i said, thanks for that) and then said something about a stream of logic.

[Fat Mac]

No. I wouldn't. I would try to reason with him further, explain to him why it was mine and that I would give him plenty of the rewards etc.

-Offers to name him his heir until a son is born to him

-Offers to give him his old seat back on the council

-He'd be able to keep SE

How much more could Stannis have offered him? Offering does nothing, since Renly was seeking such a high position.

[Mladen]

How do you know? It is never stated explicity in the books, it never told us much concerning Renly and Loras. Where do you think the TV writers got it?

I have read the books, obviously, and know it never happened. Also, TV creators have their own heads and are free to change the given material. Simply, books and TV show are not the same, not even closely. As for renly/Loras relationship, Renly was 5 years older than Loras, and far smarter... If anyone was being toyed in that relationship, it was Loras.

[StannisBamfatheon]

Ah, he has arrived. E-ro, the largest and fiercest Stag of the Stannis troupe. Though fierce in defending and protecting his One Hopeless King, and none are fiercer, his rage is worse than his reason. It is steam he bears, not logic.

Can you spare us your poetic condescending bullshit? He's engaging you in a discussion and you're talking about the poster. Doesn't help your cause.

[Phewdi]

Seems you can't counter his argument, and have been reduced to personal attacks.

No, actually there was nothing to counter since that was a really poor excuse for an argument so I said it how it was.

[The Great Walrus]

No, actually there was nothing to counter since that was a really poor excuse for an argument so I said it how it was.

You didn't even read his example, did you?

[Phewdi]

You would be wrong, the law and consequences of his actions are foremost in stannis' mind.

While I am thrilled my dominance is being acknowledged, i am not fully sure of the point of this post? You didn't refute any of my points, just said some stuff about me being an alpha(like i said, thanks for that) and then said something about a stream of logic.

Oh, how cute. He didn't even understand me. :rofl:

[Wise Fool]

Having read some of his other ones, I didn't see much reason really. It would just be mindless jarble anyhow.

Well, that is what we call an ad hominem fallacy, and certainly doesn't address the argument. Why bother posting if you won't? Honestly, the way you pursue this weird grudge you have against him seems reminiscent of... oh, I don't know. The stubborn, unbending and brittle personality of Stannis.

Seven help you, you've gazed too long into the abyss and seen the abyss gazing back at you! And winking. The abyss is winking at you.

[shiola]

my problem with renly's death is the way it went about. i can suspend disbelief for a lot of the things that happen in this series. but the shadow assassin thing was completely ridiculous. it was the most deus ex machina thing i'd ever come across, and i still resent it as a plot point more than anything else in the series.