The GNC will not come to pass and if it does it will dishonor the North forever

[StannisBamfatheon]

We're all familiar with the theory by now. The Northerners will let Bolton/Stannis bleed each other and then sweep away the victor and crown Jon King who Robb legitimized. Frankly, I don't buy it.

First of all let's examine all Stannis has done for them. This is a man who single-handedly saved the Night's Watch, an institution that is iconic and sacred to the north. If he had not come they would have been annihilated and the North would have been subject to a Wildling invasion, Stannis saved thousands of northern lives at the Battle of the Wall. However he doesn't stop there.

He is now giving battle, in a fucking blizzard no less, to the Boltons, the family who slew and betrayed their king and allowed the north to return to the yolk of the south. Should Stannis triumph he has now saved the northerners from the Wildlings and their false liege Roose Bolton. Could the northmen really be so ungrateful as to expel/kill the man that delivered them from literally ALL of their enemies? Should they do it it would dishonor them forever.

Now let's think about the plan, to crown Jon? Hmmmmm.... I could have sworn he's a member of the Night's Watch, who take no lands. Can a king be a king without a kingdom? I should think not. Additionally and I think this is highly understated. Stannis/Jon have developed an incredible buddy cop relationship. They are allies, and share a budding kinship. I would point to the quote where Jon thought the Night's watch takes no part, and then he thinks to himself, "some how it did." Should Stannis defeat the Boltons who betrayed his family I'm hard pressed to see the honorable Jon Snow turn his back on the man who did it. A man he know's as honorable and just, a man who saved his life.

Next! The north does not have a lot of man power left, hell Bolton holds the numbers on Stannis and he has roughly 5,000 men! The north's martial power was utterly drained in the south. Should the Others come and the northmen have expelled/killed Stannis, they have very few men left to defend themselves. What good is independence from the south when you have no army to defend yourself against the true enemy? It seems like a suicidal, meaningless, political aim.

If the north decides to attack Stannis and kill him they will succeed. But its going to be bloody. Stannis has 1k men with him from the south, these men are the most experienced soldiers in all Westeros. They have fought in more battles then any other army in the series and survived. Why on earth would they chose to waste even more men on an ally? Whats more, winter wont last forever. While the winter is going the south can't invade, but what happens when the winter ends? A unified south would be able to easily wipe away the north in its vastly reduced state. The winter will hit the north harder then any other region, killing even more people then the war of the five kings did. Northern independence at this time, is simply unfeasible. Especially with the others on their way, the gnc completely ignores the coming of the real enemy to westeros.

***Note: the above paragraph was composed by E-ro as we collaborated on this thread.

And no this isn't just reactionary hysteria because we're Stannis fans, these are legitimate and problematic points concerning the theory. Theory. It is not canon until GRRM puts pen to paper.

In conclusion, they would forsake a crucial ally, arguably the best military mind/tactician in Westeros WHO ACTIVELY WANTS TO FIGHT THE OTHERS, something no other lord in the south or king can say, for a meaningless political objective of independence and Northern Kingship. The plan is folly, would dishonor the north forever to betray Stannis like that, and would ultimately do way more harm then good for a superficial goal.

[Nyrhex]

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. The GNC is basically Balon-Level stupid, just to make a point. And then die.

[E-Ro]

Glad this is finally up brah. I want to say that I respect the gnc, and think its an interesting theory. Well thought out and everything, but that being said I cant agree with it, or see it as happening. The coming of the others and the norths struggles with manpower seem to me like they will take precedence over screaming "freeeeeedommmm!!" all gung ho like. Pretty much, the arrival of the others will stop the game of thrones completely in the north imo. Who you call king wont matter one wit when the winter arrives.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

And for the old gods sake lets say Eddard Stark himself wanted to crown Stannis. So they are betraying ned wishes, for the second time. Just think what it would be of the north and the starks by now if they did what ned ordered.

[E-Ro]

And for the old gods sake lets say Eddard Stark himself wanted to crown Stannis. So they arw betraying ned wishes, for the second time. Just think what it would be of the north and the starks by now if they did what ned ordered.

"the throne by rights passes to lord Stannis, the elder of Roberts two brothers." Lord petyr stroked his pointed beard as he considered the matter. "So it would seem. Unless..." "unless, my lord? There is no seeming to this. Stannis is the heir. Nothing can change that."

Neds words. We all love ned, WOULD YOU GO AGAINST NEDS WISHES? HMMM? WOULD YOU!?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm still about 95% sure that most of this just stems from Stannis butthurt. But, carry on. :)

[StannisBamfatheon]

I'm still about 95% sure that most of this just stems from Stannis butthurt. But, carry on. :)

And I'm 95% that theory is rah rah "king in the north!" wolves will rise again fluff and waaaaay to northern-centric

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

And I'm 95% that theory is rah rah "king in the north!" wolves will rise again fluff and waaaaay to northern-centric

What's fluff is thinking the northerners give a damn about Stannis or his rights or his claim. He's a means to an end. That's it.

ETA: I would also like to point out that the idea that the northerners are planning to attack Stannis and kill him is not in any way included in the GNC theory and acting like it is is pretty disingenuous and unfair. You can dispute the theory if you want but I'd appreciate it if you didn't misrepresent what it says. The idea is that if Stannis wins, they tell him he can have the Iron Throne but he's not the King in the North. Simple as.

[E-Ro]

What's fluff is thinking the northerners give a damn about Stannis or his rights or his claim. He's a means to an end. That's it.

I agree, with this much at least. But I agree that whoever sits the iron throne(or is king of the north) wont matter when the others come, and that all the politicking will end.

[Tommens Cat]

Well I think the players of gnc would not believe the others are coming. They're mostly adults and have seen other winters, what makes this ones different*? They are thinking and acting politically.

Also, I doubt the lords know that Jon and stannis are buddies. They may think stannis commandeered the new castles to make war upon the north.

Also they don't know Jon. They don't know he already turned down the title they have been working so hard for. Why would any sane man stay in nw when they could be king?*

I don't necessarily believe in gnc, but they have a motive and perceived probability of success.

*rhetorical questions

[StannisBamfatheon]

What's fluff is thinking the northerners give a damn about Stannis or his rights or his claim. He's a means to an end. That's it.

The "end" comes when the Others invade the north and they have no fighting men and the only man willing to help them they killed/expelled. Being able to say "I know no King but the King in the north!" is really gonna save their asses then.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The "end" comes when the Others invade the north and they have no fighting men and the only man willing to help them they killed/expelled. Being able to say "I know no King but the King in the north!" is really gonna save their asses then.

Then it's a good thing that Stannis is the real Azor Ahai ... oh, wait.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I'm still about 95% sure that most of this just stems from Stannis butthurt. But, carry on. :)

Yeah pretty much.

I like the GNC because it basically has the idea that the North are just as devious as everyone else. And why not? Planetos doesnt have a place where EVERYONE not named Bolton are just that honorable. Even good ol' North is playing dirty.

[Silent_Hero]

There's no way those northern men would bring themselves to a Freys level, they know going south with Stannis will let them get revenge, as their first stop will be the twins. And they will want Revenge.

Though I feel everyone will migrate south anyway.

[StannisBamfatheon]

Then it's a good thing that Stannis is the real Azor Ahai ... oh, wait.

Did I say he was? Apple you purposed a theory. I'm replying to your theory. Is that not the purpose of the board? Just because you say it doesn't instantly canonize it or something. Not sure what Stannis being Azor Ahai has to do with anything. Though there is more evidence for that than the GNC, atleast Stannis has a red sword amirite?

[E-Ro]

Yeah pretty much.

I like the GNC because it basically has the idea that the North are just as devious as everyone else. And why not? Planetos doesnt have a place where EVERYONE not named Bolton are just that honorable. Even good ol' North is playing dirty.

But usually being devious is to your benefit. Making another enemy and bleeding themselves on stannis is hardly wise.

[StannisBamfatheon]

Yeah pretty much.

I like the GNC because it basically has the idea that the North are just as devious as everyone else. And why not? Planetos doesnt have a place where EVERYONE not named Bolton are just that honorable. Even good ol' North is playing dirty.

I like it, therefore it is true?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Did I say he was? Apple you purposed a theory. I'm replying to your theory. Is that not the purpose of the board? Just because you say it doesn't instantly canonize it or something. Not sure what Stannis being Azor Ahai has to do with anything. Though there is more evidence for that than the GNC, atleast Stannis has a red sword amirite?

You misrepresented what I said, for one, by implying that the northerners are planning to physically attack and/or kill Stannis, which isn't really what the theory says. I'm sorry to tell you that the northerners are looking out for themselves politically and don't really believe in Stannis's cause or want him to be their king, but sometimes the truth hurts.

I like it, therefore it is true?

I don't like it, it is false?

[Señor de la Tormenta]

The GNC should have minded first of taking care of their own wall and not expect the old mannis to save all the north asses in the last second...

[Flig]

We're all familiar with the theory by now. The Northerners will let Bolton/Stannis bleed each other and then sweep away the victor and crown Jon King who Robb legitimized. Frankly, I don't buy it.

First of all let's examine all Stannis has done for them. This is a man who single-handedly saved the Night's Watch, an institution that is iconic and sacred to the north. If he had not come they would have been annihilated and the North would have been subject to a Wildling invasion, Stannis saved thousands of northern lives at the Battle of the Wall. However he doesn't stop there.

Let's just ignore the thousands of men who fought on the battlefield and the fact that it was Davos who actually convinced him to go in the first place and the men of the Night's Watch and just say Stannis did it singlehandedly.

He is now giving battle, in a fucking blizzard no less, to the Boltons, the family who slew and betrayed their king and allowed the north to return to the yolk of the south. Should Stannis triumph he has now saved the northerners from the Wildlings and their false liege Roose Bolton. Could the northmen really be so ungrateful as to expel/kill the man that delivered them from literally ALL of their enemies? Should they do it it would dishonor them forever.

"literally ALL" Ignoring the Others. And the fact that he didn't really "save" them from the Wildlings. They weren't looking to conquer and they weren't all that much of a threat to begin with. Sharpened sticks and fur armor yo. And if they're butthurt at Bolton for bringing them back into the fold with the South, why would they let Stannis do the same? They didn't ask him to take out the Boltons, why are they obliged to follow him once he does? Why can't they just say "Thanks, that sure was nice of you. What? You want us to rejoin the South and name you king? Nah, we like our independence. Good luck though mate." It's like if the U.S. was expected to become the colonies of France after the American Revolution. Sure, France was a huge reason they got their independence, but that doesn't mean they were supposed to bow to their every whim.

Now let's think about the plan, to crown Jon? Hmmmmm.... I could have sworn he's a member of the Night's Watch, who take no lands. Can a king be a king without a kingdom? I should think not. Additionally and I think this is highly understated. Stannis/Jon have developed an incredible buddy cop relationship. They are allies, and share a budding kinship. I would point to the quote where Jon thought the Night's watch takes no part, and then he thinks to himself, "some how it did." Should Stannis defeat the Boltons who betrayed his family I'm hard pressed to see the honorable Jon Snow turn his back on the man who did it. A man he know's as honorable and just, a man who saved his life.

I think you're making Jon and Stannis out to be way to buddy-buddy. Their relationship always seemed fairly strained to me, grudging respect and mutual benefit all around. And if Jon's death and rebirth is a loop hole to free him from his vows, your first argument there is bunk.

Next! The north does not have a lot of man power left, hell Bolton holds the numbers on Stannis and he has roughly 5,000 men! The north's martial power was utterly drained in the south. Should the Others come and the northmen have expelled/killed Stannis, they have very few men left to defend themselves. What good is independence from the south when you have no army to defend yourself against the true enemy? It seems like a suicidal, meaningless, political aim.

Because so many Northerners are aware of the looming Other threat. You are right, wasting manpower now is dumb, but they don't know that yet. The whole point of the series so far seems to be weakening the Seven Kingdoms so they are subsceptible to coming threats. In the South that's Aegon and maybe Dany immediately with the Others coming later and in the North it's the Others immediately. The GNC ultimately weaking the North would fit this trend perfectly. See what happens when the North tries to get all cunning? Shit. Shit happens.

If the north decides to attack Stannis and kill him they will succeed. But its going to be bloody. Stannis has 1k men with him from the south, these men are the most experienced soldiers in all Westeros. They have fought in more battles then any other army in the series and survived. Why on earth would they chose to waste even more men on an ally? Whats more, winter wont last forever. While the winter is going the south can't invade, but what happens when the winter ends? A unified south would be able to easily wipe away the north in its vastly reduced state. The winter will hit the north harder then any other region, killing even more people then the war of the five kings did. Northern independence at this time, is simply unfeasible. Especially with the others on their way, the gnc completely ignores the coming of the real enemy to westeros.

Freedom is always bloody. Winter won't last forever, but it will last fucking years. A decade from now, will the North not grow at all? Will the South still leap to the attack the moment spring comes? Look at how many people(in the U.S) supported the war in Afghanistan immediately after 9/11. Look how many supported it in 2011. A decade of winter immediately following a major war(Wot5K) plus an invasion(Aegon) and possibly a second invasion(Dany) won't have people lusting for death. Especially since this winter will be brutal due to lack of food stocks. The North is used to hard winters. They will hold out. And again the GNC doesn't know of the coming of the real enemy to Westeros.

***Note: the above paragraph was composed by E-ro as we collaborated on this thread.

And no this isn't just reactionary hysteria because we're Stannis fans, these are legitimate and problematic points concerning the theory. Theory. It is not canon until GRRM puts pen to paper.

In conclusion, they would forsake a crucial ally, arguably the best military mind/tactician in Westeros WHO ACTIVELY WANTS TO FIGHT THE OTHERS, something no other lord in the south or king can say, for a meaningless political objective of independence and Northern Kingship. The plan is folly, would dishonor the north forever to betray Stannis like that, and would ultimately do way more harm then good for a superficial goal.