How many people has Melisandre actually burned?

[hurga]

For the last time it was Stannis' his own sept. He wanted to get rid of it.

And even if you do attack the culture of someone are they allowed to kill 4 men?

They were burned because they killed 4 of the Queen's men in order to save Stannis' own sept.

First of, the notion whether it is "his own sept" or does not really help us with the matter. Even if it was within the castle of one of his man, he simply could have said "I am your liege lord, and you must do on your lands as i bid you. So go on burn your sept".

I really understand where you are coming from. My problem is, you jump between correct Westeros law (Stannis is allowed to burn subjects who disobey him) and correct real world morality (killing people is far worse than mocking somebody by destroying a religious place that you own).

Just stay with westeros morality for one more minute: These are noble born who cannot stand when their house is being mocked. They carry family names they are proud of, give themselves sometimes silly titles. They live within a society where some of the worst things that can happen to them is loosing their face. Burning their gods (even when the building in question is not their own) is mocking the cultural background.

I do not say that his is good by real world standards and justifies murder.

But when Stannis burns the sept he simply neglects the cultral background of the society he is living in and who's king he is.

[The Red Melli]

I really don't see how they're innocent because of religious intolerance.

But I agree burning is a horrible way to die.

[The Red Melli]

First of, the notion whether it is "his own sept" or does not really help us with the matter. Even if it was within the castle of one of his man, he simply could have said "I am your liege lord, and you must do on your lands as i bid you. So go on burn your sept".

I really understand where you are coming from. My problem is, you jump between correct Westeros law (Stannis is allowed to burn subjects who disobey him) and correct real world morality (killing people is far worse than mocking somebody by destroying a religious place that you own).

Just stay with westeros morality for one more minute: These are noble born who cannot stand when their house is being mocked. They carry family names they are proud of, give themselves sometimes silly titles. They live within a society where some of the worst things that can happen to them is loosing their face. Burning their gods (even when the building in question is not their own) is mocking the cultural background.

I do not say that his is good by real world standards and justifies murder.

But when Stannis burns the sept he simply neglects the cultral background of the society he is living in and who's king he is.

This whole argument began because I said they weren't innocent, this was a matter of justice and they deserved to die. Not by burning though

This happened:

Stannis did mock their culture.

They killed 4 of the Queen's Men in order to save the Sept

2 son's survived and they were put in prison

What's their punishment?: Your answer? Mine is execution but not by burning

They got executed because of the 4 murders.

[aceluby]

So at the end of the day ...

All the people who actually got burned weren't innocent and this was a matter of justice?

We have 4 traitors (2 of Hubard Rambton sons,Alester Florent,Guncer Sunglass)

3 cannibals and Rattleshirt.

Don't get me wrong though I'm not in favor of death by burning alive.

Burning someone because they won't support your claim (because you're freaking BURNING PEOPLE!) isn't 'justice', IMO. Also, Florent was doing what he thought was best for his people and the realm, which is the same reasoning behind burning Edric. To say that burning Edric is ok because it was with good intentions and then calling Florent a traitor is really hypocritical.

[The Red Melli]

Burning someone because they won't support your claim (because you're freaking BURNING PEOPLE!) isn't 'justice', IMO. Also, Florent was doing what he thought was best for his people and the realm, which is the same reasoning behind burning Edric. To say that burning Edric is ok because it was with good intentions and then calling Florent a traitor is really hypocritical.

As far as I know all those people commited crimes the king is allowed to sanction the deaths of traitors, is he not?

Edric got never burned and I never said it was OK..............

[hurga]

So essentially you're saying Stannis is morally obliged to tolerate their religious fanaticism.

Essentially Stannis should not have burnt the sept in the first place because he gives them the decision to either fight or loose their face.

Look guys, I will gladly agree that with real world standards, nobody should receive harm for whatever his belief is (wish that it would work in the real world). But then, we would also have to discuss that burning people is as well not acceptable, as well as many other cruel things that happen in Westeros and which we rightly should realize to be wrong by our standards.

But it makes no sense to discuss about what Stannis is entitled to do due to the laws and morality of this world WITHIN this world and then neglect the background of the people in this society.

[The Red Melli]

Essentially Stannis should not have burnt the sept in the first place because he gives them the decision to either fight or loose their face.

Look guys, I will gladly agree that with real world standards, nobody should receive harm for whatever his belief is (wish that it would work in the real world). But then, we would also have to discuss that burning people is as well not acceptable, as well as many other cruel things that happen in Westeros and which we rightly should realize to be wrong by our standards.

But it makes no sense to discuss about what Stannis is entitled to do due to the laws and morality of this world WITHIN this world and then neglect the background of the people in this society.

Let me ask you a question.

What if you were Stannis and you decides to get rid of your Sept. - no backing off

During this process 4 of your men got killed.

And the 2 men who are responsible for the killings are put in prison.

What's the punishment?

[Mikken]

It was not their sept to defend, it was the sept of Dragonstone, Stannis's sept. They killed their king's men following orders to burn the king's property at their king's home.

It's a feudal society. If Stannis misliked farting, it would be treason. By that same token, the oaths that bind knights are made in the names of the Seven. It is their entire world, their order, and their honor Stannis was about to burn (It was probably the Sept of all Dragonstone); Which oath is more important? The one to their gods, or to their king?

It was Religious intolerance that led Stannis to burn the Sept in the first place. Why? Why does he do all this for Mel. He wants power. Stannis is just and hard, yes, but he is also petty and jealous --envious of Ned and Renly. Have you ever asked yourself why Stannis never warned Ned about the incest? (Hint: he wanted Robert dead.)

[The Red Melli]

It's a feudal society. If Stannis misliked farting, it would be treason. By that same token, the oaths that bind knights are made in the names of the Seven. It is their entire world, their order, and their honor Stannis was about to burn (It was probably the Sept of all Dragonstone); Which oath is more important? The one to their gods, or to their king?

It was Religious intolerance that led Stannis to burn the Sept in the first place. Why? Why does he do all this for Mel. He wants power. Stannis is just and hard, yes, but he is also petty and jealous --envious of Ned and Renly. Have you ever asked yourself why Stannis never warned Ned about the incest? (Hint: he wanted Robert dead.)

Yes it was religious intolerance.

But the question is are these men innocent or not?

They've killed 4 of the Queen's men.

It was justice to execute them. Not the burning though,

[hurga]

This whole argument began because I said they weren't innocent, this was a matter of justice and they deserved to die. Not by burning though

This happened:

Stannis did mock their culture.

They killed 4 of the Queen's Men in order to save the Sept

2 son's survived and they were put in prison

What's their punishment?: Your answer? Mine is execution but not by burning

They got executed because of the 4 murders.

The problem simply starts earlier. As I have said in my response to chrisdaw, he only gives them two choices:

Fight of loose your face.

He should never let it come to that.

[SeanF]

I suppose it would be rather like the Queen burning down the Royal Chapel at Windsor Castle, after announcing her conversion to Islam. She would be legally entitled to do so, but even in our very secular age, it would generate an awful lot of ill-feeling. In a more religious age, it might provoke a rebellion.

[Mikken]

Yes it was religious intolerance.

But the question is are these men innocent or not?

They've killed 4 of the Queen's men.

It was justice to execute them. Not the burning though,

The Queen's men were trying to burn their gods; they were the aggressors. Honor demanded them to defend the Sept. Were I a Westeros Lord judging this case, I'd find the Queen's men guilty of blasphemy and praise the knights.

[The Red Melli]

The problem simply starts earlier. As I have said in my response to chrisdaw, he only gives them two choices:

Fight of loose your face.

He should never let it come to that.

Yes but It actually happened.

Are you saying Stannis is responsible for the killings?

As I said earlier this whole argument began because I said they were not innocent..

[aceluby]

As far as I know all those people commited crimes the king is allowed to sanction the deaths of traitors, is he not?

Edric got never burned and I never said it was OK..............

I never said they didn't commit crimes, just that 'justice' inherently means the punishment fits the crime. You're equating all deaths to be of equal value when clearly they are not. Using your logic Stannis was 'right' to put them to death in any way he sees fit... so chopping off all their limbs, one by one while still keeping them alive only to let them bleed out only once they have snipped all appendages is 'ok' because they are traitors. Sorry, but that's not 'justice', it's crazy, just like burning people alive for something like cannabalism (which isn't treason BTW) is crazy.

[The Red Melli]

The Queen's men were trying to burn their gods; they were the aggressors. Honor demanded them to defend the Sept. Were I a Westeros Lord judging this case, I'd find the Queen's men guilty of blasphemy and praise the knights.

It was Stannis' order.

It was Stannis' sept and he wanted to get rid of it.

They have killed 4 men because of their religious fanaticism and they did betray the king.

Kings are allowed to execute traitors.

[hurga]

Let me ask you a question.

What if you were Stannis and you decides to get rid of your Sept. - no backing off

During this process 4 of your men got killed.

And the 2 men who are responsible for the killings are put in prison.

What's the punishment?

Okay, as you want to hear it: They have to be killed as he has no other choice.

Now, let me reformulate your question:

What if you were Stannis and you decide to mock one of your bannerman while all your other lords are present

4 of your men are being killed while defending you after the enraged lord attacks

And the men who is responsible for the killings is put in prison.

What's the punishment?

Again, death.

But the fault for this death and those before lies with Stannis because he mocked the man knowing what society they both live in.

[The Red Melli]

I never said they didn't commit crimes, just that 'justice' inherently means the punishment fits the crime. You're equating all deaths to be of equal value when clearly they are not. Using your logic Stannis was 'right' to put them to death in any way he sees fit... so chopping off all their limbs, one by one while still keeping them alive only to let them bleed out only once they have snipped all appendages is 'ok' because they are traitors. Sorry, but that's not 'justice', it's crazy, just like burning people alive for something like cannabalism (which isn't treason BTW) is crazy.

As I 100000000 times said with the justice part I ment they weren't innocent and deserved to die because of treason etc etc.

I didn't say that burning alive was the right punishment. I made this thread to see if Melisandre burned innocent people who did nothing.

And I hope you didn't miss the I'm not in favor of burning people part where I posted like everywere.

[hurga]

As I 100000000 times said with the justice part I ment they weren't innocent and deserved to die because of treason etc etc.

I didn't say that burning alive was the right punishment. I made this thread to see if Melisandre burned innocent people who did nothing.

And I hope you didn't miss the I'm not in favor of burning people part where I posted like everywere.

:D

Deal with it, it is your username combined with the topic. You are our scapegoat Melisandre. : - )

Anyway, I have come to really like this topic over the last 2 hours.

[The Red Melli]

Okay, as you want to hear it: They have to be killed as he has no other choice.

Now, let me reformulate your question:

What if you were Stannis and you decide to mock one of your bannerman while all your other lords are present

4 of your men are being killed while defending you after the enraged lord attacks

And the men who is responsible for the killings is put in prison.

What's the punishment?

Again, death.

But the fault for this death and those before lies with Stannis because he mocked the man knowing what society they both live in.

I made this thread to see if Mel burned innocent people.

Which is not the case. Maybe the fault lay by Stannis.

But that doesn't mean they're innocent.

[aceluby]

It was Stannis' order.

It was Stannis' sept and he wanted to get rid of it.

They have killed 4 men because of their religious fanaticism and they did betray the king.

Kings are allowed to execute traitors.

You keep claiming that it was those defending the sept that are 'religious fanatics'. Sorry, but no. The religious fanatics are the ones burning other gods to appease their own. Also, why is it Stannis' sept?