White Walkers to be led by one of the POV's

[King of Winters]

For those of you who'd like to discuss how the Others aren't what they seem, and aren't the ultimate threat that can only be killed by dragons and how they are wholly evil, why not come over to the Heresy threads?

[Queen Elsa]

If he comes back as undead the only wayIMO to push the story forward would be for him to lead the others against his nights watch killers

Jon doesn't need to lead an army of Others to fight a handful of killers.

[space]

I honestly dont want the WW to be a big deal, but it would be intriguing if one of the main characters took control of them for a morally "grey" goal...but honestly...having the struggle for the IT as a side item to a cheezy good vs evil ice zombie battle would be the equivalent of being distracted by fine caviar as an appetizer for the much anticipated main course, a four day old big mac that has been sitting out in the sun

im sure GRRM has a lot more up his sleeves and the WWs purpose (better be) something other then arrrrrrg, we from noooorrrrth, we killlllll, make zombieeeeees, make world cooooooold, wiiiiinter, aaarrrrrrggggg

[StannisBamfatheon]

I feel the same. I don't want the Others to be led by a human, but neither do I think the Others= ultimate evil villains. They are way misunderstood, and they have a backstory, that we don't don't, that explains the way they are.

How? How are they misunderstood? The very first chapter in all of ASOIAF features an other who laughs as he kills Waymar Royce. Seems pretty inherently evil... They attacked the Night's Watch without provocation at the fist with their wights and slaughtered about 70% of them. Another other tries to kill Sam on sight. There is evidence the Others are coordinated and intelligent, but none to suggest they aren't wholly malevolent and antagonistic towards people.

[Consigliere]

Not by one of the POV's but by Stannis.

[Rhymes with Weak]

Why does everything in ASOIAF have to be grey, even in our world somethings are black and white. If one thing is certain why can't it just be that the others are simply ice demons who are wholly bent on the destruction of mankind for no real reason.

[King of Winters]

How? How are they misunderstood? The very first chapter in all of ASOIAF features an other who laughs as he kills Waymar Royce. Seems pretty inherently evil... They attacked the Night's Watch without provocation at the fist with their wights and slaughtered about 70% of them. Another other tries to kill Sam on sight. There is evidence the Others are coordinated and intelligent, but none to suggest they aren't wholly malevolent and antagonistic towards people.

Well something that was discussed yesterday in Heresy was that the reason the Others were mocking towards Ser Waymar was because of their child-like behaviour. That Craster's boys' growth is sped up so they grow up quickly and can fight quickly, but still have a child-like mind.

And if you think that the Others are evil and want to kill all things and have no basis, then I think your mistaken.

[StannisBamfatheon]

Why does everything in ASOIAF have to be grey, even in our world somethings are black and white. If one thing is certain why can't it just be that the others are simply ice demons who are wholly bent on the destruction of mankind for no real reason.

Because the wait between books is quite lengthy, so to fill the time fans postulate wild theories without little evidence. There is zeeeerrrrooo text support to indicate the others are just misunderstood and actually fight for teddy's bears and rainbows and flowers.

[Max Berg]

How? How are they misunderstood? The very first chapter in all of ASOIAF features an other who laughs as he kills Waymar Royce. Seems pretty inherently evil... They attacked the Night's Watch without provocation at the fist with their wights and slaughtered about 70% of them. Another other tries to kill Sam on sight. There is evidence the Others are coordinated and intelligent, but none to suggest they aren't wholly malevolent and antagonistic towards people.

Fair Enough, in the previous page I stated a similar point. Yet these objections don't clearly appoint WW as evil, the one who laughs could be a Ramsay Bolton WW, and the fact they are going south.. ..that's how war works for some leaders, even Romans did make a desert and call it peace.

Why does everything in ASOIAF have to be grey, even in our world somethings are black and white. If one thing is certain why can't it just be that the others are simply ice demons who are wholly bent on the destruction of mankind for no real reason.

They can be well grey, even white from their own subjective POV. Even Sauron was right from his own POV and that of Morgoth.

But I think that admitting they have their own greyness or whiteness, does not change that for the humans good they are not misunderstood as being "black" and evil. Look at the legends around them, look at the wrath they caused to human species.. I bet my balls on it.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Just because the Others hate humans, does not mean that they are necessarily inherently evil. I'm sure that there are plenty of reasons to hate humans.

[Commander Jon Snow]

Just because the Others hate humans, does not mean that they are necessarily inherently evil. I'm sure that there are plenty of reasons to hate humans.

Agreed

[A Bastard King]

The Great Other has nothing to do with the Others. It Mels who assumes they are servants of the Great Other, but they aren't.

Is this proven? as in text in a book? I've missed it if so? I've always gone along with the thought that they are linked together.

How? How are they misunderstood? The very first chapter in all of ASOIAF features an other who laughs as he kills Waymar Royce. Seems pretty inherently evil... They attacked the Night's Watch without provocation at the fist with their wights and slaughtered about 70% of them. Another other tries to kill Sam on sight. There is evidence the Others are coordinated and intelligent, but none to suggest they aren't wholly malevolent and antagonistic towards people.

:agree: I'm with you here buddy

Well something that was discussed yesterday in Heresy was that the reason the Others were mocking towards Ser Waymar was because of their child-like behaviour. That Craster's boys' growth is sped up so they grow up quickly and can fight quickly, but still have a child-like mind.

And if you think that the Others are evil and want to kill all things and have no basis, then I think your mistaken.

Again I haven't read any evidence of this, surely this is just speculation within this forum. I know we have such long waits in-between books but somethings that seem meaningless get given so much depth you would think GRRM was feeding information to some people.

Any textual evidence would be much appreciated.

[King of Winters]

Is this proven? as in text in a book? I've missed it if so? I've always gone along with the thought that they are linked together.

Most people think that the Great Other is nothing to do with the Others, that Mels got it wrong (again) when she said the Others were servants of the Great Other. We don't have any proof that they connected in any way, except they both have "Other" in their names. R'hllor and the Great Other are like two sides of the same coin, and are in no connection to the Others.

Again I haven't read any evidence of this, surely this is just speculation within this forum. I know we have such long waits in-between books but somethings that seem meaningless get given so much depth you would think GRRM was feeding information to some people.

Any textual evidence would be much appreciated

From Heresy yesterday-

http://observationde...rview-886117845

Its question 21 - about Arya:

Not only in Ice and Fire — we also did this bit in the Wild Cards series, the whole thing of the child solider is a fascinating construct. We have this picture of children [as] so sweet and innocent. I think some of the recent history in Africa and some of the longer history have shown that under the right circumstances, they can become just as dangerous as men, and in some ways more dangerous. On some level, it’s almost a game to them.

[Jojen Dayne-Reed]

I agree they will have a backstory too.... Perhaps rouge first men?

But IMO I want them to stay the bad guys, it would interesting if we knew what they wanted, planned and why?

but I haven't picked up on anything(now on my 4th reread) to suggest they are protecting themselves in anyway. They seem to be the ones expanding their ground coverage by coming south rather than protecting say their own kingdom.

So many reasons that this could be for, but again I personally have always seen them a force of destruction and darkness.

It depends in how "their kingsom" is defined. We think of it being the far north. But maybe it's everything North of the wall. Or maybe they were farther south until the invasion of the first men. So we push the children north. The children push the WWs north. Sometime during the age of heros the WWs push back. They kill a lot of people but it's war so we can probably assume it was no better or worse the say the sacking of KL by Tywin.

(Crackpot warning. Stop here if you're not ready to get crazy) After the war the WWs are pushed past the wall and the first men retreat south (abandoning the fort at the dust). Uneasy Truce is called. Starks are kings in the north and a ww is king beyond the wall.

Until the Nights King kidnaps a WW princess. After the NK is defeated the border heats up again. The kbtw is defeated and the WWs are pushed farther north.

Time passes and the NW becomes less vigilant. WWs slowly expand south again.

They put up with the wildlings because a few wildlings arnt worth starting a war over. Especially considering they lost last time. (Although Hardhome was too much and had to be destroyed)

But they're getting bolder. Realizing our defenses have weakened. Or perhaps, like us, they've forgotten the details of the war. Either way, as far as they're concerned they're just reclaiming their homeland from evil invaders. Heck, maybe they're hoping for Adara reborn.

Eta: dyac

[Little and Less]

Although this is only my opinion, and I'm sure I'm way off but I've always simply thought that the WW are winter personified. They represent cold, ice/snow, death, and darkness like winter.

Maybe the reason they aren't fully evil is because you need winter because it precipitates the "killing off" of disease, rebirth and renewal (of Spring). GRRM's "greyness" really lies with how he portrays the powerful people of Westeros - backstabbing, greedy, warmonging, killing for power, etc...who's really the villian here?

Maybe the WW are man's curse for when things start to go to far one way....The price men pay for their actions. And in their own way the WWs believe that they must wipe out men in order to start the process over - bring back balance to the earth that is being carlessly used by Westros people.

If they do have some intelligence and GRRM seems to indicate that they do, then the WWs may look at what their doing as good and natural, not malicious or evil.

Like the dragons personify summer - especially heat and fire the WW personify cold and ice. You need both forces.

But then, I could be full of it.

[WhineHaus]

I look forward to reading more about the White Walkers, always excited when they show up in the text. Through Bran and Bloodraven, I have a feeling we're going to learn more about the WW in tWoW. Also, I'm not so against having an ultimate evil in this series. Everything else is so grey and interpretive, it'd be nice to have a singular enemy.

[binga]

Because the wait between books is quite lengthy, so to fill the time fans postulate wild theories without little evidence. There is zeeeerrrrooo text support to indicate the others are just misunderstood and actually fight for teddy's bears and rainbows and flowers.

C'mon now, nobody is saying they are cute teddy bears. George has told us we are going to learn more about them. Usually when someone does something it is for a reason, the idea that the Others are just random monsters attacking everyone else is a bit silly considering George's universe. They will likely have some kind of motivation. Perhaps they see warm life as alien, impure, and a threat. Or perhaps they were the original inhabitants of Westeros. That doesn't mean they are necessarily good, just that they have a motivation that is compelling to them.

[Urien the Ragged]

So far in the story there is nothing to talk to with the others. They don't speak, they just kill. Kind of hard to negotiate with an undead creature that doesn't speak. I do agree though that there has to be something more to them, just haven't learned it yet.

Nitpicking, but the WWs arent undead. Martin says they are a form of life.

[Crowford]

Yes, I both want the Others to get an explained motivation, and for a POV character to join them. Especially if this truly turns out to be the main conflict in the last two books (and it shapes up to be). I just think it would be completely inappropriate for a series like ASoIaF to end with the showdown against the Big Bad Villain, in which all the Good Guy Characters (like Bran, Jon, Sansa, Dany, Stannis, Jaime, Melisandre and whoever else is rumored to be the latest hero of prophecy) somehow team up and kick them back North.

The easiest way to make that conflict interesting is putting a sympathetic character in a leading or supporting role for the Others. Like Jon becoming something like the Night's King (for very understandable reasons) and leading them to war against Stark lands, at this point rules by Sansa. Or Bloodraven turning out to be the ultimate mastermind behind the Other's invasion and manipulating Bran. Or the Other's having such convincingly good motives that Bran willingly joins them, and the reader agrees with him.

Anything that not ends with all the good guy teaming up on the one bad guy.

[A Bastard King]

I look forward to reading more about the White Walkers, always excited when they show up in the text. Through Bran and Bloodraven, I have a feeling we're going to learn more about the WW in tWoW. Also, I'm not so against having an ultimate evil in this series. Everything else is so grey and interpretive, it'd be nice to have a singular enemy.

I agree with this, I do get excited when they show up in text after all the books started with a scene including them and since then its few and far between that they are included,

I hope that we could perhaps find out a little more about them through Bran or BR.