Heresy Route 66

[wolfmaid7]

In reference to the warg/skinchanger:

The way I read the ADWD prologue, warg is a subclass of skinchanger, specifically, those skinchangers most used to changing into wolves. Some, like Haggon (Varamyr's teacher) seem to be wolf-exclusive, by choice. But Haggon had plenty of advice of what was wrong with other creatures, so probably changed into a lot of other creatures before settling on wolves. Overall, then, a warg is a skinchanger skinchanging into a wolf (or direwolf). The feedback of animal to skinchanger is suggested to be there for all animals, with a skinchanger choosing a cat too often becoming vain and cruel, and one choosing a bird becoming all annoyed by being unable to fly. There's also the factor that wolves (and dogs) are apparently very easy to skinchange, and are more accepting of it than other creatures.

It should be noted that Varamyr skinchanges into all sorts of creatures, but the book calls him warg. I am, thus, not sure there is any evidence for a warg that is not also a skinchanger in general (but, according to my theory, that makes sense. Warging is simply a name for skinchanging into a wolf/dog/direwolf).

From what i recall,it is V.Sixskins who call himself a Warg,all other characters that i'd seen called him a skinchanger. The difference that i see is that with a skinchanger there is no perminant or emotional bond between them and their animals. As we saw with V.sixskins when Mel broke his hold on the animals,they turned on each other,plus his wolves left him.They never stayed or defended him because he was no longer holding them. With a Warg its different in that the connection is permenant it can't be broken at all.

Take for instance Arya ,even though she sent Nymeria away she still has a connection to her, V.sixskins had to go looking for his pack and because they had been worn by him already it was easy for him to retake One eye but other than that when the heat was on the connection got broken and they bolted.His animals pretty much had their will back and they chose to split.

[GoldenVale]

I'd imagine the same way you get a large wild elk to let a corpse and a bunch of kids ride it on a suicide trek through the tundra.

So the corpse doesn't need to be around to control the beast? What's the leash factor on this amazing warg/skinchange ability?

From what i recall,it is V.Sixskins who call himself a Warg,all other characters that i'd seen called him a skinchanger. The difference that i see is that with a skinchanger there is no perminant or emotional bond between them and their animals. As we saw with V.sixskins when Mel broke his hold on the animals,they turned on each other,plus his wolves left him.They never stayed or defended him because he was no longer holding them. With a Warg its different in that the connection is permenant it can't be broken at all.

Take for instance Arya ,even though she sent Nymeria away she still has a connection to her, V.sixskins had to go looking for his pack and because they had been worn by him already it was easy for him to retake One eye but other than that when the heat was on the connection got broken and they bolted.His animals pretty much had their will back and they chose to split.

My problem here is that people seem to attribute this to WARGS,. For all we know this special bond is actually exclusive to STARKS and not WARGS. Considering Varymyr, whose had training, and who has interacted with much of his own kind for years calls himself a warg and not a skinchanger seems to support this and that wargs and skinchangers are basically the same thing.

Edit: For spelling

[DireMaker]

:agree:

[DireMaker]

Could be why the sigil of House Stark is the direwolf, prehaps the two bloodlines are interwoven like that of the Targs and dragons... I.E. "Woolfblood". And the direwolves being driven north of the wall could also be what led to Rikards southron ambitions? The loss of the old way, and the coming of the long night 2.0?

[7V3N]

Which is no doubt true, in the sense that it led eventually to the rest. I just doubt that at that time, he had all the many intricacies all mapped out.

Any in-story explanation for the direwolves should probably not focus on how they come to be south of the Wall. There are possible explanations for that, however unlikely.

The pups, on the other hand... I'm trying to imagine how someone (Bloodraven or anybody) would guarantee that a pregnant direwolf would have precisely six pups, one of which is visibly and behaviorally different from the others. I just don't see it happening.

To me, it smacks of blatant authorial symbolism (which is what GRRM focuses on in his answer) as opposed to any sort of rational genesis.

Of course, the usual MIWAU answer (GRRM: "magic is wondrous and unexplainable!") can be pasted onto this mystery, but it seems like a cop-out. There is no other instance of this or similar magic anywhere in the books.

Which is exactly what I lean to :) Just open to other ideas, and am curious of what people can put together.

[7V3N]

So the corpse doesn't need to be around to control the beast? What's the leash factor on this amazing warg/skinchange ability?

My problem here is that people seem to attribute this to WARGS,. For all we know this special bond is actually exclusive to STARKS and not WARGS. Considering Varymyr, whose had training, and who has interacted with much of his own kind for years calls himself a warg and not a skinchanger seems to support this and that wargs and skinchangers are basically the same thing.

Edit: For spelling

I am starting to consider that warg may be a boast of sorts. Varamyr may be a skinchanger, but boasts that he is a warg--implying he can have a powerful bond to his creatures, rather just simply changing skins. We see how people react to Jon being a warg, and it seems a bit more than what Varamyr has. Perhaps the free folk call Varamyr a skinchanger--what he truly is--but he claims he is stronger and is a warg, possessing a more powerful bond with his animals, a boast. Just spitballing.

Can't reference the text on Varamyr and skinchanger/warging, as I have been bar hopping for the night :cheers:

[Morrigan's Raven]

How would you classify what Arya is learning to do with the FM? Is that skin changing? Or glamour?

[GoldenVale]

I am starting to consider that warg may be a boast of sorts. Varamyr may be a skinchanger, but boasts that he is a warg--implying he can have a powerful bond to his creatures, rather just simply changing skins. We see how people react to Jon being a warg, and it seems a bit more than what Varamyr has. Perhaps the free folk call Varamyr a skinchanger--what he truly is--but he claims he is stronger and is a warg, possessing a more powerful bond with his animals, a boast. Just spitballing.

Can't reference the text on Varamyr and skinchanger/warging, as I have been bar hopping for the night :cheers:

I think this unlikely, considering the fact that at the time (or at least for the text reference I'm referring to (ADWD Prologue) he was already dying and talking to himself. It seems to me he wouldn't bother boasting to himself.

And happy drinking!

How would you classify what Arya is learning to do with the FM? Is that skin changing? Or glamour?

I think it's different from a glamour. From what I read in the text (can't find appropriate quotes right now, will get it later) the change the FM use is physical while glamours seem to be just an illusion.

[7V3N]

How would you classify what Arya is learning to do with the FM? Is that skin changing? Or glamour?

Perhaps a bit of both--this is a question that has me thinking over and over again. Perhaps she becomes the person she wears the skin of--she feels the person, Jaquen speaks in third person, etc.--and that is combined with a glamour--Mel notes that significant belongings, such as bone armor or fingerbones can enhance the power of a glamour--to allow Faceless Men to appear AND become another person.

[addicted to snow]

From what i recall,it is V.Sixskins who call himself a Warg,all other characters that i'd seen called him a skinchanger. The difference that i see is that with a skinchanger there is no perminant or emotional bond between them and their animals. As we saw with V.sixskins when Mel broke his hold on the animals,they turned on each other,plus his wolves left him.They never stayed or defended him because he was no longer holding them. With a Warg its different in that the connection is permenant it can't be broken at all.

Take for instance Arya ,even though she sent Nymeria away she still has a connection to her, V.sixskins had to go looking for his pack and because they had been worn by him already it was easy for him to retake One eye but other than that when the heat was on the connection got broken and they bolted.His animals pretty much had their will back and they chose to split.

As we saw with V.sixskins when Mel broke his hold on the animals,they turned on each other,plus his wolves left him.They never stayed or defended him because he was no longer holding them. With a Warg its different in that the connection is permenant it can't be broken at all.

--

Mel also broke the bond / Warg connection between Jon & Ghost in ADWD... Are you suggesting that Jon is not a Warg either???

[addicted to snow]

I think that attempting to reason out how the how the direwolf got South of the wall is probably an exercise in futility. (1) I doubt GRRM knows how this came to be (2) Even if he does know, he will likely never write it into the remaining books due to lack of space & the lack of importance.

That said, I will one again offer my superior reasoning abilities to help solve this mystery:

- The books say that prior to the events in Bran chapter 1 of AGoT, a direwolfs had not been seen in the north for over 200 years... It would not be difficult for a pair of wolves - or even a pack of direwolves to have survived in the North, unseen for the past two centuries. The North is very sparsely populated, and the Wolf's Wood (which is adjacent to Winterfell) is hardly populated at all. If a couple of Direwolves were going to live unseen in the North, this would be the place to do it... It is never said that the Direwolf had to traverse the wall at all.

- The direwolf was found with a broken antler in it's throat. The antler was jammed into the wolf so forcefully that it snapped the tines off the main beam & was described as shattered where the main beam actually broke off. The only way this could have become lodged within the direwolf was by a stag who was fighting for his life. The antler was clearly not a 'bone dagger' or 'antler dagger' as has been suggested because any human making an 'antler dagger' would have removed the tines & carved the main beam down smooth. This does not fit with the description noted in the book; 'Tines snapped off'. If the antler found in the wolf had been an 'antler dagger' the word 'shattered' would not have been used by the author to describe the breakage point of the main beam of the antler.

It is a very creative & though intensive theory, but the descriptions given by the author disproves it. We will never if the wolf came from North of the wall or not, and we will probably never know how the deserter negotiated his passage south of the wall. Being a seasoned ranger, there is always the possibility that he was aware of the Black Gate, though I have my doubts.

[CanadianWolvie]

In reference to the warg/skinchanger:

The way I read the ADWD prologue, warg is a subclass of skinchanger, specifically, those skinchangers most used to changing into wolves. Some, like Haggon (Varamyr's teacher) seem to be wolf-exclusive, by choice. But Haggon had plenty of advice of what was wrong with other creatures, so probably changed into a lot of other creatures before settling on wolves. Overall, then, a warg is a skinchanger skinchanging into a wolf (or direwolf). The feedback of animal to skinchanger is suggested to be there for all animals, with a skinchanger choosing a cat too often becoming vain and cruel, and one choosing a bird becoming all annoyed by being unable to fly. There's also the factor that wolves (and dogs) are apparently very easy to skinchange, and are more accepting of it than other creatures.

It should be noted that Varamyr skinchanges into all sorts of creatures, but the book calls him warg. I am, thus, not sure there is any evidence for a warg that is not also a skinchanger in general (but, according to my theory, that makes sense. Warging is simply a name for skinchanging into a wolf/dog/direwolf).

:agree:

I was just about to post this when I was reading the first page of this thread. Well said, Varymyr Six Skins gives us plenty of insights into skinchanging. Of particular to note it seems that the bond between skinchanger and beast goes two ways, both leave impressions on each other, usually the first thing they skinchange into has the biggest impact it seems.

The insights into skinchanging thanks to Six Skins was a sign post for me helping direct me to the conclusion Dany is a Dragon skinchanger that I see weaved throughout her entire Point of View. Apparently, this conclusion is a bit of a heresy to some.

Thanks to wolfmaid for directing me to this thread to ponder Bran The Time Traveler, Old Gods, Weir Woods, Children of the Forest, and the Watch Commander's Raven.

I personally now think the Dire Wolf pup thing was as stated in the text, the Old Gods sent them, and seeing as we now have insights into just who and what the Old Gods are that can even 'see' beyond the trees - I think the Lord Commander's Raven's speaking is a lot like the speaking to characters through the trees, only a whole lot more obvious. If the Old Gods can be damn near omnipresent and even operate outside time like Bran trying to talk to his dad through the Winterfell Weirwood, its not inconcievable that the Old Gods orchestrated the Dire Wolf pup situation that leads to all kinds of shenanigans.

Old Gods could be making all kinds of subtle moves manipulating events where ever their ... Alpha Centauri Xenofungus White Weir Woods are still kicking about with the animals they can ride along mentally with possibly being the range with which they can gather intel and influence events. And since ravens can range pretty far...

[7V3N]

:agree:

I was just about to post this when I was reading the first page of this thread. Well said, Varymyr Six Skins gives us plenty of insights into skinchanging. Of particular to note it seems that the bond between skinchanger and beast goes two ways, both leave impressions on each other, usually the first thing they skinchange into has the biggest impact it seems.

The insights into skinchanging thanks to Six Skins was a sign post for me helping direct me to the conclusion Dany is a Dragon skinchanger that I see weaved throughout her entire Point of View. Apparently, this conclusion is a bit of a heresy to some.

Ah I agree with the Dany part. I have a bit theory that the dragons actually manipulate her, being the stronger beings in this sphinx (rather than warg) relationship.

Since you seem to be a new poster (and welcome!) I will direct you to a couple of my old, and somewhat long, posts from a bit back. They concern my thoughts on the relationship between Dany and dragons, as well as some other related thoughts:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/90551-heresy-58/#entry4593503

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/91351-heresy-59/page__st__180#entry4654618

[alienarea]

I started to make a case for Benjen bringing the direwolf mother across the wall in the last herrsy.

To me this makes more sense than Gared. And the reason might be the second part of the deal between the last hero and the old gods. I threw the first part out in herrsy 65 as well.

Basically I wonder whether the last hero wasn't saved by the CotF but the old gods of the First Men, who are not in league with the CotF.

Because gods have a strange concept of time if any, the long night was the old gods punishing the first men for converting to the belief of the CotF (once again note in Bran IV AGoT how absent the CotF are in the beginning of the long night).

The last hero is a stark, and Stark is the word for a priest/shaman of the first men. He sets out to find his old gods, not the CotF, this was an error in the tale because if he were searching for the CotF this implies the CotF were responsible for the long night.

So the last hero finds the old gods, confesses and received mercy. The old gods retreat and the last hero becomes the Stark in Wlnterfell.

Now the belief in the old gods twindles again, culminating in the southron ambitions of Lord Rickard. While Benjen is the Stark in Winterfell during the rebellion he is contacted by the old gods, joins the nightwatch when Ned returns, and becomes first ranger eventually.

He befriends mother direwolf while ranging, and finally has to bring her south of the wall and kill her for his nephews and nieces to become wargs and reestablish the old gods.

Only a person having control over the direwolf mother could place the antler in her throat and kill her without hurting or killing it with other wounds before. Gared couldn't do that.

One ast crackpot: Benjen became a White Walker known as Ser Puddles.

:dunno:

[CanadianWolvie]

Ah I agree with the Dany part. I have a bit theory that the dragons actually manipulate her, being the stronger beings in this sphinx (rather than warg) relationship.

Since you seem to be a new poster (and welcome!) I will direct you to a couple of my old, and somewhat long, posts from a bit back. They concern my thoughts on the relationship between Dany and dragons, as well as some other related thoughts:

http://asoiaf.wester...8/#entry4593503

http://asoiaf.wester...80#entry4654618

Those are some very interesting insights, thanks for sharing that with me :)

I personally think the Iron buggers are a bit of red (priest) herring, that the horn is just a nasty toxic piece of radioactive crap and the captain basicly had his wound 'magically' cauterized, dipped in oil or what not.

The Red Priests seem to have found an alternate method to Green Dreamin, for all the use that does anyone since prophecy is a bitch. And like a few Red Priests have managed to fire breath some dead people back to life, we have Cold Hands kicking about north of the very white weir wood wall and we have the Others makin blue eyed Wights. We have white trees and black trees ... and people on both sides of the world that carry obsidian weapons.

You're probably on to something in some ways, in others, I think the narrow perspectives that give us insight into the world of Ice and Fire are both revealing and decieving, so you never quite know if you are getting a genuine deal with a dragon :devil:

I am more inclined to think the Red Priests are full of shit, since they don't seem to have a clue about Bran The Builder's works anymore than anyone else, where as the white tree mind melded bad asses that are the Old Gods, if anyone knows what's up with Brandon's Buildings, it would be them.

[addicted to snow]

I wish that we could puzzle what the connection is between The Old Gods, The Others, Winter, and the Starks... I think that it has something to do with Eddard's thoughts in AGOT: 'Ned Stark dreamed of a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell'.

This statement can be interpreted literally or figuratively...

- Ned was dreaming of The North, of Winterfell... So the statement above could be re-written as: 'Ned Stark dreamed of Winterfell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell'. Which is a bit redundant, and could be taken to suggest that Ned was not thinking about Winterfell...

- It could also be inferred from this statement that there is literally a 'cold hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell'. If the Heart of Winter is this cold hell, then it is almost certainly what Bran saw at the end of his dream just prior to waking from his coma. This would also mean that Ned & Rob are officially Others... This would fit with Jon's dream of cutting Rob's head off in winterfell using long claw...

[CanadianWolvie]

I started to make a case for Benjen bringing the direwolf mother across the wall in the last herrsy.

To me this makes more sense than Gared. And the reason might be the second part of the deal between the last hero and the old gods. I threw the first part out in herrsy 65 as well.

Basically I wonder whether the last hero wasn't saved by the CotF but the old gods of the First Men, who are not in league with the CotF.

Because gods have a strange concept of time if any, the long night was the old gods punishing the first men for converting to the belief of the CotF (once again note in Bran IV AGoT how absent the CotF are in the beginning of the long night).

The last hero is a stark, and Stark is the word for a priest/shaman of the first men. He sets out to find his old gods, not the CotF, this was an error in the tale because if he were searching for the CotF this implies the CotF were responsible for the long night.

So the last hero finds the old gods, confesses and received mercy. The old gods retreat and the last hero becomes the Stark in Wlnterfell.

...

:dunno:

This doesn't parse for me with what we know of the prayers to the Old Gods being to the White Weir Woods and since we know from what Bran saw that most of the people wired into the White Weir Wood roots are Children of the Forest...

How you can conclude that the COTF and the Old Gods are seperate entities not in league with each other given what Bran's point of view has revealed is perplexing to me.

[Morrigan's Raven]

Interesting thoughts regarding Dany.

I've been thinking about what makes Fire and Ice different, and how they are the same, trying to feel my way toward I think you call the Balancer here...I think of as the Divine Adrogyne...reflecting some of all sides.

The FM skinchange through bloodmagic; I believe I read a theory regarding the Boltons imitating that. And both sides share the ability to share a bond or warg.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Maybe we should all sign an agreement and publish it as an ebook?

Black Crow, the Hand, and the master of Coin, 7v3n might could do one, the rest would just get in the way.

I think Egg may have married a Stark he met at Winterfell during the She-Wolves of Winterfell.

No, if there is a marriage between them, it would have been one of Eggs younger sisters, and she would likely have been Edwyle's mother. That is the only way the time line would work, and why Robert had "the better claim".

That would seem strange if true. As of all the Kingdoms you'd expect the North to have the best chance of having Greenseers, but it's the Riverlands.

Why? I believe there is a reason for the name "Green Men". Where are they located?

http://awoiaf.wester...p/Isle_of_Faces

This is what confuses me. You seem to be working off the assumption that wargs and skinchangers are already considered different tings while I'm not entirely sure they are.

Although he has from time to time got confused himself, GRRM has said they are different. IIRC something like

"all Wargs are skinchangers, but not all skinchangers are Wargs"

Not my idea (not sure who first came up with it) and I'm not fully behind it, but it certainly leads to good discussion:

IIRC it wasn't any one persons theory, Someone said something off the wall, and then 3 or 6 others jumped in, and we got that out of it, and it has stuck around all these months later in one form or another.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Last night I spoke too soon, about us slowing down, I think 8 pages have been done in the last 24 hours.