Victarion's Destiny: Badassery Beyond Belief

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

Great posts, I like your ideas can see a lot of it happening. However...

While she’s away, Victarion, realizing that she’ll never give him what she wants decides to finally use the horn. He prepares for the ritual and the dragonhorn is blown, one or both of the remaining dragons respond to the horn and draw closer. Right before Vic can complete the ritual and bind the dragons together he gets stabbed in the back. He turns around and sees the Dusky Woman, smiling and trying to complete the ritual in his place. In one final moment of badassery Victarion flungs himself forwards and attacks the Dusky Woman. They slam against the railing and wrestle. During that wrestle Vic rips the Dusky Womans face off, revealing that she was a FM all along (and no not Euron). Despite of her injury she manages to stab him again and again. With his dying breath Vic clasps her in his arms and throws himself and her over the railing. With his iron grip and armor he takes her with him and they both drown.

I think If Victarion is going to blow the horn, it's going to be before Dany shows up. Moqorro sees Dany as the messiah, and he's not going to let anyone take away her dragons. He's teaching Vic to use the horn because if worst came to worst, he'd rather Vic control the dragons than Euron, as he's identified Euron as a threat to Dany. However, if the dragons aren't needed to save Dany's forces from annihilation, I see Moqorro counseling restraint and Victarion listening (there's been a lot of trust-building in their relationship.)

Once Dany returns, Moqorro isn't going to forget to tell her that one of her allies has a horn that can take away everything she holds dear. As much as Moqorro is helping Vic, he is Dany's man. However, he has Vic's ear and a vested interest in making sure his savior goes to Westeros to battle the Great Other in the War for the Dawn. I think Moqorro will broker a deal where Vic gives Dany the horn in return for Dany marrying him. I can't see Dany accepting a situation where her ally controls dragonbinder.

Vic: "You should know, I killed my beloved spouse with my own two hands."

Dany: "Me too! Got him with a pillow, it was kind of sweet."

Vic: "No, seriously, I used my hands. And the left one wasn't even on fire yet."

Dany: "Why would you ever tell that to a girl?"

Vic: "Sorry, I didn't want to do it, but my crazy brother kind of left me no choice."

Dany: "I get that, I had a crazy brother too."

Vic: "No way! We have so much in common, let's make out."

Dany: "No."

This had me laughing out loud.

[Veltigar]

Great posts, I like your ideas can see a lot of it happening. However...

:cheers:

I think If Victarion is going to blow the horn, it's going to be before Dany shows up. Moqorro sees Dany as the messiah, and he's not going to let anyone take away her dragons. He's teaching Vic to use the horn because if worst came to worst, he'd rather Vic control the dragons than Euron, as he's identified Euron as a threat to Dany. However, if the dragons aren't needed to save Dany's forces from annihilation, I see Moqorro counseling restraint and Victarion listening (there's been a lot of trust-building in their relationship.)

The poster before you also said something similar. I have explained him why I believe that the Horn will be blown later (mostly because of the Dusky Woman). But you raise some interesting points and I’ll try and answer those.

Like I said I think that the Dusky Woman is going to kill Victarion. One of the major pieces of evidence for that thesis is the fact that Moqorro tells Vic that his death is in the room (while only he, Vic and the DW are present). Therefore I’m pretty sure that Moqorro knows how Victarions endeavor will turn out.

When Dany leaves for pentos and he decides to blow the horn. He’ll probably send men to bring Moqorro to him (and give them permission to use force). But Moqorro will turn up out of his own free will, prepare the ritual with the dragon horn, take a step back so that Vic can complete the spell and then bamn the Dusky Woman makes her move.

[What a Flayed Man Holds]

Finally have some free time to get back to this thread. Since Martin hasn't finished the book yet there's no real way to know what's going to happen to Vic or anyone, but there has been some quality speculation going on here--I've read back through this thread, and wanted to point out what I think are some of the variables involved in predicting what will happen to our man Vic in the long run. I'm willing to assume, because it's near 100% sure to happen, that the shitty Yunkish army is going to lose the Battle of Mereen, and that the Daenerys loyalists will form a temporary alliance to hold until she returns, but what happens during/after that will be pretty important, and will be influenced by the following things [and any other ones you all care to point out]:

--The Timing of Dany's return to Mereen: obviously, the biggest one. The longer she's gone, the more tense the relations among her loyalist alliance become. If she remains away for a long time, and Vic-Plumm-Tatters-Shavepate start taking unilateral action that causes disagreement among the alliance and problems in the city [Vic beheading Hizdahr before Dany can return to judge his guilt or innocence, in my example above], she will return to an increasingly negative situation. It's in her best interest to sort things out with Jhoqo's khalasar quickly and return to Mereen ASAP, if only to show her face and remind her team who's in charge, but that might not be what happens.

--Dragonbinder: the effect of this horn on a dragon remains to be seen. It might not work at all [not likely], it might immediately grant full, dragonriding, obedient command to the horn's "owner" [possible], or it might do something in between--essentially stunning the dragons into submission, temporarily commanding their attention, and allowing for their gradual training as aerial mounts and weapons of war [possible]. Euron's gifts are poisoned, but the Crow's Eye [probably expecting Vic to mismanage the horn] didn't count on Moqorro entering the picture and lending a fiery hand.

Finally, when will the horn be blown? Since the last action on this thread, GRRM has previewed a second Tyrion chapter, which may affect the timing of this serenade. I'm putting that in the next post.

--Moqorro: As the haters have been giddy to point out, Vic is not the brightest candle in the sept. But Moqorro appears to be pretty smart, and the fact that he was chosen and sent by Benerro is a strong endorsement of his intelligence and skill. As of ADWD, Moqorro has been a huge help to Victarion--Vic's fortunes will depend greatly on whether or not Moqorro is actually his friend, and how their Iron Captain-Red Wizard friendship continues when Dany re-enters the picture. Will Moqorro ditch Vic when Dany comes around? Will he appear to stay by Vic's side and subtly manipulate the dude to accomplish Dany's goals? All I'm really sure of is that Moqorro will put in a good word for Tyrion [and vice-versa], due to the mutual respect they seemed to develop onboard the Perfumed Seneschal.

--Political Developments After the Battle: This is pretty well covered in the thread above. There are some variables here--whether the two remaining dragons will be free or in-thrall, when the Sons of Harpy will start a new uprising, how the allegiances of the sellsword companies develop, etc, but I don't see any of these events posing a risk to Victarion's survival. Probably the most important Vic-related things to watch for here will be whether any of the factions are scheming to undermine/sell out/eliminate any of the others down the road, and...

--The Arrival of the Volantene Fleet: Veltigar made a really good case above that the Volantenes could easily arrive in Mereen before Dany returns. Their fleet was preparing to sail when the Iron Fleet passed through Volantis; Barristan's ADWD chapters include the announcement that the Volantene fleet has departed the city, but the Barristan-Tyrion sample chapters make it sound like the Ironborn arrived there first, and that the Volantenes are not there yet. Veltigar laid out a solid guess as to how that battle develops when it happens, with Dany returning on dragonback to turn the tide, and the Volantene slaves revolting when they see the Dragon Queen that Benerro's been obsessively preaching about. After this, Dany has even more ships than before, and can finally prepare to set sail for Westeros.

--The Dusky Woman: a lot of people are sure that she will betray Victarion, and there are a lot of reasons why she might do so [FM affiliation, secretly loyal to Euron, the utterly brainless theory that the DW is Euron]. Veltigar noted that when Vic first brought Moqorro to his cabin, the Dusky Woman was there, and Moqorro told him that his death was "in this room." I've always thought he was referring to Vic's severely infected hand wound, but he may have meant something more.

--Dany's Reception/Attraction to the Iron Captain: not sure what will happen here; on one hand, Vic is more of a Khal Drogo type than her other suitors/lovers, and he is bringing her a lot of assets, including a probable alliance with one of Westeros' great houses. On the other hand, it seems like she likes men who can also make her laugh, and Vic is almost completely humorless. I don't consider myself qualified to evaluate how Dany might "feel" about the dude, but I will say that Barristan is likely to advise her that an Ironborn alliance might bring as many enemies as it would bring friends, and that Victarion's actions during Dany's absence might be the difference in her opinion.

[What a Flayed Man Holds]

Also, there was some debate on this thread earlier about the timing of Vic's use of Dragonbinder, and whether or not the dragons would get involved in the Battle of Mereen set to occur at the start of Winds of Winter.

Below is a link to a transcribed reading of the second Tyrion sample chapter--no horn, but it definitely appears like the dragons are on the loose; Viserion at the start, and Rhaegal by the end. I won't spoil what they're up to, but it's disgusting and awesome at the same time. This is occurring simultaneously with the Ironborn beach assault. This new chapter doesn't give a whole lot away, but it does make it seem like the dragons are coming out to play, it alludes to the Windblown deserting the Yunkai immediately, and it confirms the totally unsurprising decision by Brown Ben to go back to Dany's side--presaging the formation of Team Daenerys we've all been expecting.

Worldcon Reading, Tyrion II

[SeanF]

Well, I can't know what will happen, but if he's still alive, I should think Dany would be immensely grateful to Victarion. She needs an admiral, and he'd be the obvious choice. He may be stupid, but he's a capable seaman and warrior.

[What a Flayed Man Holds]

Well, I can't know what will happen, but if he's still alive, I should think Dany would be immensely grateful to Victarion. She needs an admiral, and he'd be the obvious choice. He may be stupid, but he's a capable seaman and warrior.

I couldn't agree more, but sometimes you have to defend the obvious. By the time she gets back she will have a lot of reasons to be grateful; barring any unforgivable blunders during Mereen's "holding" period, his track record should be very good in her eyes. She'll name him her admiral the first chance she gets. Whether she is enticed by his ambitions of marriage is another story. I'm anticipating a "serve me well and I will give you my hand" arrangement, but if that happens, Vic is probably not going to live to see it through.

[Veltigar]

This is occurring simultaneously with the Ironborn beach assault. This new chapter doesn't give a whole lot away, but it does make it seem like the dragons are coming out to play, it alludes to the Windblown deserting the Yunkai immediately, and it confirms the totally unsurprising decision by Brown Ben to go back to Dany's side--presaging the formation of Team Daenerys we've all been expecting.

Personally, I think that the new sample chapter makes it less likely for Vic to blow the Horn. I mean things are falling to pieces for the Yunkishmen even faster than I predicted. There will be no need to blow the horn, the battle is already over (which is a bit ironic when you think about it, all those chapters setting up this big battle and it will all be over in a jiffy).

Viserion at the start, and Rhaegal by the end. I won't spoil what they're up to, but it's disgusting and awesome at the same time.

Mostly awesome :D

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

Personally, I think that the new sample chapter makes it less likely for Vic to blow the Horn. I mean things are falling to pieces for the Yunkishmen even faster than I predicted. There will be no need to blow the horn, the battle is already over (which is a bit ironic when you think about it, all those chapters setting up this big battle and it will all be over in a jiffy).

Mostly awesome :D

:agree: with both.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

Finally have some free time to get back to this thread. Since Martin hasn't finished the book yet there's no real way to know what's going to happen to Vic or anyone, but there has been some quality speculation going on here--I've read back through this thread, and wanted to point out what I think are some of the variables involved in predicting what will happen to our man Vic in the long run. I'm willing to assume, because it's near 100% sure to happen, that the shitty Yunkish army is going to lose the Battle of Mereen, and that the Daenerys loyalists will form a temporary alliance to hold until she returns, but what happens during/after that will be pretty important, and will be influenced by the following things [and any other ones you all care to point out]:

--The Timing of Dany's return to Mereen: obviously, the biggest one. The longer she's gone, the more tense the relations among her loyalist alliance become. If she remains away for a long time, and Vic-Plumm-Tatters-Shavepate start taking unilateral action that causes disagreement among the alliance and problems in the city [Vic beheading Hizdahr before Dany can return to judge his guilt or innocence, in my example above], she will return to an increasingly negative situation. It's in her best interest to sort things out with Jhoqo's khalasar quickly and return to Mereen ASAP, if only to show her face and remind her team who's in charge, but that might not be what happens.

--Dragonbinder: the effect of this horn on a dragon remains to be seen. It might not work at all [not likely], it might immediately grant full, dragonriding, obedient command to the horn's "owner" [possible], or it might do something in between--essentially stunning the dragons into submission, temporarily commanding their attention, and allowing for their gradual training as aerial mounts and weapons of war [possible]. Euron's gifts are poisoned, but the Crow's Eye [probably expecting Vic to mismanage the horn] didn't count on Moqorro entering the picture and lending a fiery hand.

Finally, when will the horn be blown? Since the last action on this thread, GRRM has previewed a second Tyrion chapter, which may affect the timing of this serenade. I'm putting that in the next post.

--Moqorro: As the haters have been giddy to point out, Vic is not the brightest candle in the sept. But Moqorro appears to be pretty smart, and the fact that he was chosen and sent by Benerro is a strong endorsement of his intelligence and skill. As of ADWD, Moqorro has been a huge help to Victarion--Vic's fortunes will depend greatly on whether or not Moqorro is actually his friend, and how their Iron Captain-Red Wizard friendship continues when Dany re-enters the picture. Will Moqorro ditch Vic when Dany comes around? Will he appear to stay by Vic's side and subtly manipulate the dude to accomplish Dany's goals? All I'm really sure of is that Moqorro will put in a good word for Tyrion [and vice-versa], due to the mutual respect they seemed to develop onboard the Perfumed Seneschal.

--Political Developments After the Battle: This is pretty well covered in the thread above. There are some variables here--whether the two remaining dragons will be free or in-thrall, when the Sons of Harpy will start a new uprising, how the allegiances of the sellsword companies develop, etc, but I don't see any of these events posing a risk to Victarion's survival. Probably the most important Vic-related things to watch for here will be whether any of the factions are scheming to undermine/sell out/eliminate any of the others down the road, and...

--The Arrival of the Volantene Fleet: Veltigar made a really good case above that the Volantenes could easily arrive in Mereen before Dany returns. Their fleet was preparing to sail when the Iron Fleet passed through Volantis; Barristan's ADWD chapters include the announcement that the Volantene fleet has departed the city, but the Barristan-Tyrion sample chapters make it sound like the Ironborn arrived there first, and that the Volantenes are not there yet. Veltigar laid out a solid guess as to how that battle develops when it happens, with Dany returning on dragonback to turn the tide, and the Volantene slaves revolting when they see the Dragon Queen that Benerro's been obsessively preaching about. After this, Dany has even more ships than before, and can finally prepare to set sail for Westeros.

--The Dusky Woman: a lot of people are sure that she will betray Victarion, and there are a lot of reasons why she might do so [FM affiliation, secretly loyal to Euron, the utterly brainless theory that the DW is Euron]. Veltigar noted that when Vic first brought Moqorro to his cabin, the Dusky Woman was there, and Moqorro told him that his death was "in this room." I've always thought he was referring to Vic's severely infected hand wound, but he may have meant something more.

--Dany's Reception/Attraction to the Iron Captain: not sure what will happen here; on one hand, Vic is more of a Khal Drogo type than her other suitors/lovers, and he is bringing her a lot of assets, including a probable alliance with one of Westeros' great houses. On the other hand, it seems like she likes men who can also make her laugh, and Vic is almost completely humorless. I don't consider myself qualified to evaluate how Dany might "feel" about the dude, but I will say that Barristan is likely to advise her that an Ironborn alliance might bring as many enemies as it would bring friends, and that Victarion's actions during Dany's absence might be the difference in her opinion.

That's a good breakdown of the variables. I'm curious if Euron has more up his sleeve than just Dragonbinder and the Dusky Woman.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I think Dany is more likely to marry Euron than Vic, considering her vision of Euron inside her and also Euron is the king of the Iron Islands.

[SeanF]

I think Dany is more likely to marry Euron than Vic, considering her vision of Euron inside her and also Euron is the king of the Iron Islands.

I like the idea, in a blackly funny way, of Dany going on the rampage across Westeros, married to a murderous, raping pedophile.

[Wanderer]

He may not ride them, but he has the dragon horn.

He wont ride a Dragon per se, he will hold each remaining Dragon by the throat and use them as flamethrowers, he will then go and defeat the others and kill Danny after she beds Euron.

Then some astrologer will be talking about the constellations in "the sea" and Victarion will say that he will sail and plunder those constellations "You fool the sea is a place in the sky not a water body" and then he will rip the spine of the astrologer sub-zero style.

After being mocked then, he will summon a kraken outfit it with space armor and sail "the sea" like this image shows.

http://www.cartoonscrapbook.com/01pics-L/silverhawks_L41.jpg

YES!

[IRON BANK]

Yes I believe that, the Fantas y will really pick up in the last couple of books, this will speed the story along and since we have had such a build up, and explanation of events it will not seem cheesy that its happening. I think Vic gets that ax and that we will see Crackens.

[What a Flayed Man Holds]

Personally, I think that the new sample chapter makes it less likely for Vic to blow the Horn. I mean things are falling to pieces for the Yunkishmen even faster than I predicted. There will be no need to blow the horn, the battle is already over (which is a bit ironic when you think about it, all those chapters setting up this big battle and it will all be over in a jiffy).

The fact that the battle will be over quickly makes me think, as you mentioned above, that a second battle with the Volantene fleet will happen pretty quickly afterwards. I still think there's a good chance the horn will sound sooner rather than later, based on the fact that Martin has been building up to it for several chapters, the Mereenese people have been demanding the death/submission of the dragons, and two out-of-control dragons would create significant instability [and credibility issues] for the loyalist coalition soon to be governing Mereen. The dragon horn can solve two of those three concerns. Victarion isn't aware of the situation in Mereen, but he's about to become familiar with it, and may take this course after the battle if it comes to that.

But to counter my own argument, I admit that there are several reasons why he might wait to blow the horn until a later point in time. First, this is George RR Martin, he loves to tantalize and surprise the readers, and he's really good at it--the fact that the chapters have been ramping up to Vic using the horn might mean that they are actually ramping up to him NOT using it, further delaying the awesomeness and the answering of all of our Dragonbinder questions until the stakes are even higher. Second, the horn's effect on a dragon is still uncertain. Victarion isn't a gambler and doesn't seem like the type to succumb to desperation--I don't think he'll blow the horn unless he absolutely needs to. As you said, the battle is going to end quickly, and he probably won't need to blow the horn to win it. But if Rhaegal [still in flight at the end of the Tyrion chapter above] reacts to the battle by attacking or endangering the Iron Fleet, I don't think he would hesitate. Third, I've thought before that Daenerys probably wouldn't appreciate someone taking control of the other two dragons, so if Victarion can triumph without doing that, it might be a good idea, but again, he's the commander of a fleet of wooden ships, and the necessity of avoiding dragonfire would certainly force his [burned] hand. We'll see.

That's a good breakdown of the variables. I'm curious if Euron has more up his sleeve than just Dragonbinder and the Dusky Woman.

Thanks man. By the way, I support your support of Victarion 100%. His chapters are some of the weirdest, bloodiest, most exciting ones in the series, and I think he's a lot more interesting character than the "dumb brute" impression a lot of people have about him. His flaws might ultimately be his undoing [a less-intelligent fighter with intelligent advisors is a dangerous man, but trusting those advisors can be dangerous, and the Dusky Woman is definitely in his blind spot], but anybody who says he's worthless as a character is worthless as a reader.

Regarding Euron, I definitely think he has more tricks up his sleeve than just Dragonbinder and the DW. I think he has Brightroar, as his secret ace-in-the-hole for his own personal defense if all else fails. This is premised on my own slightly crackpot [but not disprovable] theory that Euron robbed Gerion Lannister on the latter's return trip from Valyria, stole all his treasures [including Brightroar and a dragon's egg], claimed all the credit, and built his entire claim to the throne on the lie. The links in my post at the top of page 4 of this thread go to other threads where I've argued this, some of my proofs need updating, but I've considered this theory through several re-reads and I still think it holds water.

I think Dany is more likely to marry Euron than Vic, considering her vision of Euron inside her and also Euron is the king of the Iron Islands.

Excuse me, what? How did I miss that hot action?

[Veltigar]

Personally, I think the fact that Vic is a bit of a dumb brute is what makes him so interesting. I mean how often does someone like that get a place into the spotlight in a series like this?

And the way Martin writes him is just perfect. He isn’t condescending towards Vic as a character, he gives him genuine drama and he manages to make us empathize with him and sometimes even sympathize with him.

He also shows us enough of the Ironborn culture and the Greyjoy family dynamics to understand how Victarion came to be. I mean, Victarion does some pretty awful things but he isn’t what I would call a bad person. For instance, if someone like him would be born in a modern law abiding American family he would probably grow up to be a model citizen since he’s so determined to do everything by the rules and customs of his religion and society.

In fact in a way Victarion is a dark mirror image of our beloved fallen hero Robb Stark (and also in a way Stannis). Just like Robb Victarion always tries to do the right thing as defined by his culture (which most of the time is pretty harsh and horrific) and just like Robb the only thing Victarion ever gets in return is shite. His siblings (and especially Euron) don’t show him the respect and love that he deserves according to the standards of their culture and all the plotters just walk all over him because they know how Vic is bound to act by his loyalty to the Old Way.

The difference with Robb however, is that Victarion, in all his thick-headedness has finally understood that and tries to change his ways to fight back. Of course we know that that whole plot will probably blow up in his face, but at least he tried to do something different and tip the scales in his favor (and let’s be honest Euron Greyjoy seems to be a much more formidable foe than Joffrey, Cersei, Walder Frey and even Roose and Tywin so there is no shame in loosing).

Another reason why I like the way GRRM handled Victarion is that GRRM leaves him in his worth. Vic might not be the sharpest tool in the shed and he isn’t witty nor is he good at scheming like most of the other characters but GRRM does not peg him down as useless (something a lesser author would certainly do). Victarion is still presented as a great sailor, warrior and admiral who is totally in tune with his people and his culture. An asset to every cause he serves (tool for every task and a task for every tool) and in many ways a better person than many of the apparent good guys in the story (think Varys and the Tyrells).

He’s also strangely practical, something that is uncommon in his type of character in fiction, even though from a historical POV his acceptance and loyalty to two Gods is totally legit (think about the Franks for instance).

It’s also nice that Victarion is pretty straight forward. A big sprawling work like ASOIAF needs a multitude of characters and not all of those need to be deep, brooding and plotting sob’s who add layer upon layer of intrigue to the story. So, Vic’s presence is rather refreshing. He follows the rules that were laid out for him, he tries to be a good person and – by Ironborn standards – he certainly is that.

Compare that to the Tyrells for example, who are supposed to be the guardians and paragons of chivalry, and who shit on everything that code of chivalry stands for with their power hungry and frankly hypocritical attitude.

Sometimes it”s nice to have a character who’s just what he seems to be (in Victarion case a tragic but badass warrior-sailor).

On top of that all Victarion chapters are either funny as hell or contain large amount of badassery. In fact most of the time they contain both badassery and humor. And Vic is one of the most quotable characters in the entire series! I mean what’s not to love?

[Veltigar]

Double post

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Excuse me, what? How did I miss that hot action?

When she married Hizdahr a man with blue lips was inside her. In a vision.

[What a Flayed Man Holds]

When she married Hizdahr a man with blue lips was inside her. In a vision.

You're right, I remember that now. That could definitely be a Euron reference. Personally, I've always thought that vision came from the remaining warlocks "incepting" her to keep her fearful and freaked out [since they can't actually get to her], but of course it could mean more than that. It might even be both, since we know that Euron has several Qartheen warlocks in his employ. Or it might have just been a bad dream. Definitely an interesting detail, though.

Personally, I think the fact that Vic is a bit of a dumb brute is what makes him so interesting. I mean how often does someone like that get a place into the spotlight in a series like this?

I've made the same argument about Aeron Damphair before--yes, the guy is fanatical about his god, but how often do you get the viewpoint of a true believer? Not very often, and that viewpoint can actually yield serious literary returns--Vic [the unreflective "dumb" brute] is a unique, plot-forwarding POV because he's actually an honest, credible narrator, and both he and Euron have insights into the Ironborn way of life that explain a lot of things about the Ironborn as a whole. Sometimes Aeron is clearly in denial, but Victarion is impartial, perceiving and processing events in a practical manner. Like you said, not every character should be a brooding, overthinking psych study; the Victarion chapters are clear-cut, and they fit both the character and the story as it unfolds.

Another reason why I like the way GRRM handled Victarion is that GRRM leaves him in his worth. Vic might not be the sharpest tool in the shed and he isn't witty nor is he good at scheming like most of the other characters but GRRM does not peg him down as useless (something a lesser author would certainly do). Victarion is still presented as a great sailor, warrior and admiral who is totally in tune with his people and his culture.

Definitely.

He also shows us enough of the Ironborn culture and the Greyjoy family dynamics to understand how Victarion came to be. I mean, Victarion does some pretty awful things but he isn't what I would call a bad person....

Haha I almost made this argument earlier on this thread, but I didn't want the discussion to die out because I had to answer a bunch of "he-killed-his-wife-and-innocent-slave-women-how-can-he-be-a-good-person" replies. I agree. Taking religion, culture, and family into account, Victarion is probably the best person on the Iron Islands. This can be contrasted with Euron--taking religion, culture, and family into account, Euron is still one of the worst people on the Iron Islands. Victarion comes from a warlike culture, and he's one of the best fighters in it. The Ironborn are a seafaring people; Vic is one of the best sailors among them. Birth and blood are of primary importance where he comes from, and because he's a younger brother, he bows to his elder brothers' authority, becoming a very capable leader for them. He even follows their plans/orders when they conflict with his own conscience [up to a point, where I respect him because breaking with their plan was the better course of action]. He reveres the Drowned God, even after he's confronted with a different religion that conflicts with his own. Like you said, he has accomplished a lot of things without getting much of the credit, which he accepted humbly for a long time. His chapters are good for a lot of reasons, and exposition on the history and culture of the Isles is definitely one of those--it also gives a good backdrop to the Asha chapters, and helps to explain why she's so exceptional.

The difference with Robb however, is that Victarion, in all his thick-headedness has finally understood that and tries to change his ways to fight back. Of course we know that that whole plot will probably blow up in his face, but at least he tried to do something different and tip the scales in his favor (and let's be honest Euron Greyjoy seems to be a much more formidable foe than Joffrey, Cersei, Walder Frey and even Roose and Tywin so there is no shame in loosing).

For me, Victarion is independently awesome, but those who have doubts might want to try thinking about him in contrast to Theon, who also felt cheated and attempted to do something drastic to stake his claim. Theon was a whiny bitch whose plan involved disobeying the father and sister whose approval he desperately sought by screwing over his best friend. Victarion is a proven warrior and leader whose lord/king/brother is a mad man with a grand scheme likely to end in the death of a large number of their people; Vic's attempt to stake his claim is also an attempt to save his people. But he's become increasingly progressive along the way! He frees slaves, exhibits religious tolerance, looks past people's disabilities/afflictions, and has been willing to set caste and birth on the basis of merit. It's time people started realizing what a revolutionary Victarion is. I'm only half-joking here--the "world" within this series is changing, and Victarion is changing with it. That's not dumb at all.

Yes, he's doing all of these things as part of his bid to make himself king, but without that motivation, he would still be doing those things, only he would be doing them as part of an effort to make Euron king. And Euron is a sociopathic megalomaniac--Victarion thinks he would make a better king, and he's right.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

The vision of a dragon plucking a kracken from the sea could refer to Dany helping Vic get a kracken from the sea.

I doubt Dany is going to kill Vic or he will die by anyone in Meereen, it would just be repeat of Quentyn's death.

[Veltigar]

I've made the same argument about Aeron Damphair before--yes, the guy is fanatical about his god, but how often do you get the viewpoint of a true believer? Not very often, and that viewpoint can actually yield serious literary returns--

I totally agree. One of the best novels I have ever read is Mario Vargas Llosa’s “The War of the End of the World”. Almost all the major characters in that novel are fanatical in some way or another (some are fanatical Christians others are fanatical anarchists or fanatical Jacobins ) and that novel is a master piece. One of the best pieces of literature in history. Now, Aeron is not on that level but he’s still very interesting and it annoys me when people don’t see that (like that dumb crowd last year who chose a random Arianne chapter over an Aeron chapter which – according to GRRM himself – had some pretty disturbing shit in it).

Vic [the unreflective "dumb" brute] is a unique, plot-forwarding POV because he's actually an honest, credible narrator, and both he and Euron have insights into the Ironborn way of life that explain a lot of things about the Ironborn as a whole. Sometimes Aeron is clearly in denial, but Victarion is impartial, perceiving and processing events in a practical manner. Like you said, not every character should be a brooding, overthinking psych study; the Victarion chapters are clear-cut, and they fit both the character and the story as it unfolds.

I wouldn’t say that Vic is always honest and impartial but he indeed never goes to great length to hide himself or his intentions. Vic just whips out his axe and deals with the problems as they come. Refreshing and very much needed in a story like that. Too much brooding gets old pretty fast.

Definitely.

Haha I almost made this argument earlier on this thread, but I didn't want the discussion to die out because I had to answer a bunch of "he-killed-his-wife-and-innocent-slave-women-how-can-he-be-a-good-person" replies. I agree. Taking religion, culture, and family into account, Victarion is probably the best person on the Iron Islands. This can be contrasted with Euron--taking religion, culture, and family into account, Euron is still one of the worst people on the Iron Islands. Victarion comes from a warlike culture, and he's one of the best fighters in it. The Ironborn are a seafaring people; Vic is one of the best sailors among them. Birth and blood are of primary importance where he comes from, and because he's a younger brother, he bows to his elder brothers' authority, becoming a very capable leader for them. He even follows their plans/orders when they conflict with his own conscience [up to a point, where I respect him because breaking with their plan was the better course of action]. He reveres the Drowned God, even after he's confronted with a different religion that conflicts with his own. Like you said, he has accomplished a lot of things without getting much of the credit, which he accepted humbly for a long time. His chapters are good for a lot of reasons, and exposition on the history and culture of the Isles is definitely one of those--it also gives a good backdrop to the Asha chapters, and helps to explain why she's so exceptional.

Euron always struck me as a normal Westerosi persons worst nightmare. A highly intelligent and visionary sociopath rooted in Ironborn culture (but not in anyway restricted by his culture), probably one of the greatest military minds in the entire world of Planetos, backed up by incredible wealth, a fearsome reputation, a gigantic army of battle crazy Iron Islanders and connections to magic.

For me, Victarion is independently awesome, but those who have doubts might want to try thinking about him in contrast to Theon, who also felt cheated and attempted to do something drastic to stake his claim. Theon was a whiny bitch whose plan involved disobeying the father and sister whose approval he desperately sought by screwing over his best friend. Victarion is a proven warrior and leader whose lord/king/brother is a mad man with a grand scheme likely to end in the death of a large number of their people; Vic's attempt to stake his claim is also an attempt to save his people. But he's become increasingly progressive along the way! He frees slaves, exhibits religious tolerance, looks past people's disabilities/afflictions, and has been willing to set caste and birth on the basis of merit. It's time people started realizing what a revolutionary Victarion is. I'm only half-joking here--the "world" within this series is changing, and Victarion is changing with it. That's not dumb at all.

At first I was a bit baffled when I read this part but then I saw you were joking. Your right that he’s changing though, I wouldn’t call him a revolutionary or anything but he indeed tries to adapt to the changed circumstances and I respect him for that (even though I think he does it for less than altruistic reasons).

Yes, he's doing all of these things as part of his bid to make himself king, but without that motivation, he would still be doing those things, only he would be doing them as part of an effort to make Euron king. And Euron is a sociopathic megalomaniac--Victarion thinks he would make a better king, and he's right.

I disagree about the last part. Both Vic and Euron would probably be epic fails as King. The only difference is that with Euron the Ironborn have a chance. Euron is a high roller. Under his guidance the Ironborn will either be put down for good real quick or they’ll rise harder and stronger than ever before.

Victarion on the other hand offers nothing, he would have stayed true to Balon the Brainless utterly dumb plot to stay independent and expand by taking parts of the North for themselves. Eventually, they would have been thrown out of the North and exterminated for good. Vic’s way was that of the slow death, Asha foresaw that correctly.

Euron’s way on the other hand is risky but it could lead the Ironborn to great triumphs. I mean Euron has successfully executed an attack on the Reach for crying out loud! Even at the height of Ironborn power (the reign of House Hoare before Aegon I came), they were not able to do that.

Of course Euron’s plan will be foiled in the end (I do think he’s set up to become one of the final human bad guy’s, perhaps even the human bad guy), thanks to a great amount of luck and cooperation between those characters we generally identify as heroes, but that’s inevitable because of plot. To be honest if I was thrown into Westeros, with the knowledge we have at the end of ADWD, and the assurance that plot armor is not an issue any more than I would support Euron all the way.

I’ll go on the record and say that Euron is going to tear the Tyrells a new one in the opening stages of tWoW. Garlan’s big army, Oldtown, Highgarden, the Redwyne fleet, … if they cross Euron before the second Dance of Dragons they are going down. I mean just look at his resume so far:

_He came up with the idea of burning the Lannister fleet. Together with Stannis’s attack on the Wildlings this is the boldest military move in the entire books to date.

_ He sailed farther than anyone in the entire world. His claims on visiting Valyria may be disproven but he did lead the Ironborn farther West than any raider, let alone King or admiral ever did and therefore managed to get past the watchtowers of the Reach.

_He identified the real price and managed to convince his fellow Ironborn to follow him and he perfectly executed the assault on the shield islands.

_He understands the strength of the dragons and he has devised a plot to get his hands on one of them.

_He managed to imprison three (?) Quartheen wizards and – although we don’t know yet for sure – will probably be able to use them to lay a trap for the Redwyne Fleet or Garlans army.

_ He’s busy mending the greatest Ironborn flaw, namely the Iron Islanders lack of discipline and the every-captain-is-a-king-on-his-own-ship-doctrine. The Ironborn are easily the best warriors and sailors in the entire series, but thanks to their lack of discipline and their shitty command structure they are amongst the worst soldiers in planetos. At the end of ADWD Euron had bought the allegiance of some of the greatest forces among the Ironborn (Erik Anvilbreaker, Andrik the Unsmiling, etc.) by granting them land, loot and honor. He’s binding the rest of the Ironborn to him by offering them the same prospects, by regaining their honor and pride one victory at the time and if needed by intimidation (the drowning of that Botley guy who spoke against him, the blowing of the Horn, the mocking of Aeron).

Anyways my pro Euron rant is over. Sorry, if I derailed this thread.