Le Grande Northern Conspiracy, Parte the Fourth

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Argue against it all you like. Since your original argument appears to have been with someone who said "I am by no means saying that Jon will be the King" I'm not really sure where you're going with said argument.

I'm simply saying that it would serve you well to familiarize yourself with the nuances of the topic. I and many other supporters of the GNC do not dismiss Robb's will as carelessly as you seem to. It is highly significant because its existence will place the temptation of Jon's heart's desire within his reach. He would be within bounds to accept the position but will necessarily refuse it once he realizes his brothers are alive. The torment of that decision will be huge part of the story, IMO, and shouldn't be written off so quickly.

As for people who think that Jon will be King, it's a common enough perception and those people are entitled to their opinions without being dismissed as fanboys.

One more thing- the regent (or as I like to call him-- dux bellorum) for Bran or Rickon will be their big brother Jon Snow, seasoned at command and capable of rallying Northmen and Wildlings alike in the war against the Others. Making him the effective leader of the GNC.

I gotta say that this baffles me. These people are effectively saying that Robb wrote this will, a will that we still have yet to see despite knowing the meat of it (suggesting it has a role in the long game), and that it won't have any significance whatsoever. What was the damn point of the will, and keeping the will hiding out backstage, if it's just going to amount to nothing?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I gotta say that this baffles me. These people are effectively saying that Robb wrote this will, a will that we still have yet to see despite knowing the meat of it (suggesting it has a role in the long game), and that it won't have any significance whatsoever. What was the damn point of the will, and keeping the will hiding out backstage, if it's just going to amount to nothing?

I have no idea-- not only are the nuances ignored, and foreshadowing dismissed, but the fact that people are indeed heading to Jon is disregarded, and Robb is called a misinformed lawbreaker.

Never mind the fact that GRRM just does not put the effort into writing something like that without it bloody meaning something.

[Petite Psycophant]

Even if people go to Jon, will he be able to do anything? Last we heard of Jon he was being stabbed multiple times. Who's to say Robb's will MUST mean anything? Also what evidence do we have that people will honor what Robb wanted? As the events unfold Robb's will may be rendered irrelevant either way. In the case that Jon dies, in the case that Jon survives but is imprisoned in the ice cells, in the case that Jon is smuggled across the narrow sea etc.

[Pingslayer]

I gotta say that this baffles me. These people are effectively saying that Robb wrote this will, a will that we still have yet to see despite knowing the meat of it (suggesting it has a role in the long game), and that it won't have any significance whatsoever. What was the damn point of the will, and keeping the will hiding out backstage, if it's just going to amount to nothing?

Whether it resurfaces or not, Robb's will won't be considered valid because it was based on the assumption that Bran, Rickon, Arya were dead and Sansa was going to be soon killed by Lannisters. Manderly knows that Rickon is alive and if one of the Stark children comes back, Jon loses all claim to be the heir.

Ned wanted to support Stannis as his rightful king with the North. But his wish got nowhere, and his son ended up being the king in the north. And by making Robb king, the northernmen defied their liege lord and Stannis, who is the rightful king in this case.

Think about Robert's will. He made Joffrey his heir based on the assumption that he is the true son. However, we know that it's not and KL people were also doubtful of Joffrey's validity and caused a riot, which was also against Robert's will. Jon's position is not as crazy as that, but quite analogous. So, even if the northern lords come across Robb's will, they will not make Jon the heir when a Stark resurfaces.

[intheswamp]

Robb's will is going to show up. It would be a pretty big Chekhov's gun otherwise. How it impacts the story is the question.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Whether it resurfaces or not, Robb's will won't be considered valid because it was based on the assumption that Bran, Rickon, Arya were dead and Sansa was going to be soon killed by Lannisters. Manderly knows that Rickon is alive and if one of the Stark children comes back, Jon loses all claim to be the heir.

Ned wanted to support Stannis as his rightful king with the North. But his wish got nowhere, and his son ended up being the king in the north. And by making Robb king, the northernmen defied their liege lord and Stannis, who is the rightful king in this case.

Think about Robert's will. He made Joffrey his heir based on the assumption that he is the true son. However, we know that it's not and KL people were also doubtful of Joffrey's validity and caused a riot, which was also against Robert's will. Jon's position is not as crazy as that, but quite analogous. So, even if the northern lords come across Robb's will, they will not make Jon the heir when a Stark resurfaces.

The very obvious difference between Robb's will and Robert's is that we saw Robert's will drawn up, released and discarded in a very brief window of time. Robb's will is still hanging, which suggests at the very least that it will not play out the same way Robert's did. Two entirely different situations.

[Pingslayer]

The very obvious difference between Robb's will and Robert's is that we saw Robert's will drawn up, released and discarded in a very brief window of time. Robb's will is still hanging, which suggests at the very least that it will not play out the same way Robert's did. Two entirely different situations.

And how was Robert's will discarded?

Even if it was discarded, the KL people knew that Robert declared Joffrey as his heir, unaware of the truth. This explains why they were condemning and throwing objects at Ned as he was heading to his trial.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

Whether it resurfaces or not, Robb's will won't be considered valid because it was based on the assumption that Bran, Rickon, Arya were dead and Sansa was going to be soon killed by Lannisters. Manderly knows that Rickon is alive and if one of the Stark children comes back, Jon loses all claim to be the heir.

Ned wanted to support Stannis as his rightful king with the North. But his wish got nowhere, and his son ended up being the king in the north. And by making Robb king, the northernmen defied their liege lord and Stannis, who is the rightful king in this case.

Think about Robert's will. He made Joffrey his heir based on the assumption that he is the true son. However, we know that it's not and KL people were also doubtful of Joffrey's validity and caused a riot, which was also against Robert's will. Jon's position is not as crazy as that, but quite analogous. So, even if the northern lords come across Robb's will, they will not make Jon the heir when a Stark resurfaces.

Actually the North defied Joffery, not Stannis. At the time stan hadn't declared himself king and Ned's position wasn't common knowledge in the north.

Robb's will naturalizes Jon, making him a Stark, in addition to naming him King in the North. The combination would legally put him before the rest of the true born Stark children. Bran and Rickon being alive doesn't in itself invalidate the will it complicates the question of succession, to be sure, but it doesn't determine the issue.

The northern loyalist relationship to Robb is notably different than Cersei relationship with Robert...so there's that.

[Petite Psycophant]

And how was Robert's will discarded?

Even if it was discarded, the KL people knew that Robert declared Joffrey as his heir, unaware of the truth. This explains why they were condemning and throwing objects at Ned as he was heading to his trial.

Actually, it didn't specifically say Joffrey, Ned made sure of this since he knew that he wasn't Robert's son. The people of KL assumed Joffrey would be named heir because they don't know he isn't Robert's son. Besides the people have nothing to with anything. They are completely irrelevant.

There's no evidence that Robb's will is important or that it matters other than people want it to be, imho. I too was wondering whether the will would have any impact at all but after the Red Wedding I figured that it wouldn't matter. Especially as events unfolded. Jon HAD the chance to be the lord of Winterfell and he refused. He's sworn to the NW. I'm sure that if it wasn't for the fact that he thought Arya was at the mercy of Ramsay he wouldn't have lifted a finger to get involved in the North. He felt guilty enough for even counseling Stannis. If he had enough men to fight off Stannis he most probably would have sent him back to Dragonstone with his tail between his legs.

As the events have unfolded it still wouldn't matter if it were to resurface. Jon is in no condition to help anyone. Bran is beyond their reach so are Arya and Sansa, Rickon is the only one they can get their hands on and show that there's indeed still a Stark alive to rally behind and fight for.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

Actually, it didn't specifically say Joffrey, Ned made sure of this since he knew that he wasn't Robert's son. The people of KL assumed Joffrey would be named heir because they don't know he isn't Robert's son. Besides the people have nothing to with anything. They are completely irrelevant.

There's no evidence that Robb's will is important or that it matters other than people want it to be, imho. I too was wondering whether the will would have any impact at all but after the Red Wedding I figured that it wouldn't matter. Especially as events unfolded. Jon HAD the chance to be the lord of Winterfell and he refused. He's sworn to the NW. I'm sure that if it wasn't for the fact that he thought Arya was at the mercy of Ramsay he wouldn't have lifted a finger to get involved in the North. He felt guilty enough for even counseling Stannis. If he had enough men to fight off Stannis he most probably would have sent him back to Dragonstone with his tail between his legs.

As the events have unfolded it still wouldn't matter if it were to resurface. Jon is in no condition to help anyone. Bran is beyond their reach so are Arya and Sansa, Rickon is the only one they can get their hands on and show that there's indeed still a Stark alive to rally behind and fight for.

There is plenty of evidence the will is important. It's contents have been confirmed...why waste the time confirming the contents of the will in the app, if the RW made it irrelevant? Many of Robb's most loyal bannermen witnessed their liege lords last will, it would be kind of messed up to ignore it. Jon refused when Stan offered it not Robb, there's a world of difference...He turns it down because he remembers Robb telling him he won't ever be the Lord of winterfell because he's a bastard...oh and there's the whole thing about "to get my fathers keep i'd have turn my back on gods" thing.

"a second life fit for a king" ADwD prologue.

[Pingslayer]

Actually the North defied Joffery, not Stannis. At the time stan hadn't declared himself king and Ned's position wasn't common knowledge in the north.

I'm not saying that the northmen were downright against Stannis, like they were to Joffrey. By declaring Robb king, they were defying Ned's wish and disobeying Stannis, who is the rightful ruler they should have supported if it wasn't for making Robb king. At first, they pondered about going to Stannis as Ned wanted and what was rightful, they just made themselves a separate kingdom.

Oh now I see that Ned had swapped "Joffrey" with "my heir". My mistake.

Robb's will naturalizes Jon, making him a Stark, in addition to naming him King in the North. The combination would legally put him before the rest of the true born Stark children. Bran and Rickon being alive doesn't in itself invalidate the will it complicates the question of succession, to be sure, but it doesn't determine the issue.

The northern loyalist relationship to Robb is notably different than Cersei relationship with Robert...so there's that.

Naturalizing Jon was also based on the "assumption" that Bran and Rickon were dead. Unless they are stupid, the northern lord will do more than guess the context. Besides, Manderly has his entire plan to back up Rickon, I doubt he will support Jon. And the North is more strong with having Rickon as their king, because the river lords will not support them if Jon becomes one (they basically take his existence as an insult to Tullys). So the northmen would probably go with the safer option.

Not only that, Jon is not a person to usurp his brother's claim or aspire to be a king. There is also a rule that kings don't get pov, and Rickon is the perfect position for that. If it occurs that Bran does not return from the cave, it will be Rickon.

[Pingslayer]

There is plenty of evidence the will is important. It's contents have been confirmed...why waste the time confirming the contents of the will in the app, if the RW made it irrelevant? Many of Robb's most loyal bannermen witnessed their liege lords last will, it would be kind of messed up to ignore it. Jon refused when Stan offered it not Robb, there's a world of difference...He turns it down because he remembers Robb telling him he won't ever be the Lord of winterfell because he's a bastard...oh and there's the whole thing about "to get my fathers keep i'd have turn my back on gods" thing.

"a second life fit for a king" ADwD prologue.

It doesn't say in the book that many of Robb's bannerman witnessed that.

[Russo]

There may be something more important than naming Jon as the heir in the will, and naming Jon is a bit of a Red Herring. It still happened, but is not the most important thing in the will.

What that could be I have no idea, and I dont really believe it. Just throwing it out there....

[Russo]

There may be something more important than naming Jon as the heir in the will, and naming Jon is a bit of a Red Herring. It still happened, but is not the most important thing in the will.

What that could be I have no idea, and I dont really believe it. Just throwing it out there....

[Arya kiddin']

The first page of this thread had a good summary as well as links to other discussions and essays which, while not exactly tl/dr, are well worth reading if you're interested:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/95448-le-grande-northern-conspiracy-parte-the-fourth/

Oh. Of course I read that Lady Gwyn, I meant like the main bullets of speculations laid out, the main claims as it were. But thanks anyway. :)

[Petite Psycophant]

There is plenty of evidence the will is important. It's contents have been confirmed...why waste the time confirming the contents of the will in the app, if the RW made it irrelevant? Many of Robb's most loyal bannermen witnessed their liege lords last will, it would be kind of messed up to ignore it. Jon refused when Stan offered it not Robb, there's a world of difference...He turns it down because he remembers Robb telling him he won't ever be the Lord of winterfell because he's a bastard...oh and there's the whole thing about "to get my fathers keep i'd have turn my back on gods" thing.

"a second life fit for a king" ADwD prologue.

The prologue isn't evidence enough for me but in which one of the books are the contents of the letter confirmed? Cause so far I can see none. Definitely not in ADwD and definitely not in ASoS.

ETA:

It doesn't say in the book that many of Robb's bannerman witnessed that.

Indeed. As I remember it he wrote up the will and gave it to someone and told them to make sure it reached someone else. I forget the details. I went looking but all I found so far was Robb telling Cat of his plans and Cat protesting. Since Robb doesn't have a POV I'm having a little trouble finding the exact details.

[Valandui]

It doesn't say in the book that many of Robb's bannerman witnessed that.

The important ones did. Edmure Tully, Jason Malister, Greatjon Umber, Galbart Glover, Maege Mormont.

[Pingslayer]

"a second life fit for a king" ADwD prologue.

Direwolf is the king of wolves. Nymeria basically leads hundreds of wolves. But it does not apply to humans as we know that Arya has weaker claim to a queen than Bran, Rickon and Sansa for example.

[Pingslayer]

The important ones did. Edmure Tully, Jason Malister, Greatjon Umber, Galbart Glover, Maege Mormont.

Can you point to the quote?

Even if it's real, they can invalidate the will as they can easily guess from the context that Robb believed his siblings were dead. If Rickon turns up, it basically turns the will upside down. By blood, Bran and Rickon are the rightful heir, and the lords are not people stupid enough to forego the bloodline.

[Petite Psycophant]

Ser Raynald Westerling came to escort Catelyn to the king’s tent. She found her son seated beside a brazier, a map across his lap. Grey Wind slept at his feet. The Greatjon was with him, along with Galbart Glover, Maege Mormont, Edmure, and a man that Catelyn did not know, a fleshy balding man with a cringing look to him. No lordling, this one, she knew the moment she laid eyes on the stranger. Not even a warrior.

Jason Mallister rose to offer Catelyn his seat. His hair had almost as much white in it as brown, but the Lord of Seagard was still a handsome man; tall and lean, with a chiseled clean-shaven face, high cheekbones, and fierce blue-grey eyes.

They discuss a lot of things and by the end:

Robb stood, and as quick as that, her fate was settled. He picked up a sheet of parchment. “One more matter. Lord Balon has left chaos in his wake, we hope. I would not do the same. Yet I have no son as yet, my brothers Bran and Rickon are dead, and my sister is wed to a Lannister. I’ve thought long and hard about who might follow me. I command you now as my true and loyal lords to fix your seals to this document as witnesses to my decision.”

But other than this the will is never mentioned again. If I'm wrong someone please provide the quotes.

ETA: The above quote is reference to the conversation below, btw.

“Mother.” There was a sharpness in Robb’s tone. “You forget. My father had four sons.”

She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. “A Snow is not a Stark.”

“Jon’s more a Stark than some lordlings from the Vale who have never so much as set eyes on Winterfell.”

“If Jon is a brother of the Night’s Watch, sworn to take no wife and hold no lands. Those who take the black serve for life.”

“So do the knights of the Kingsguard. That did not stop the Lannisters from stripping the white cloaks from Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Boros Blount when they had no more use for them. If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon’s place, I’ll wager they find some way to release him from his vows.”

He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. “A bastard cannot inherit.”

“Not unless he’s legitimized by a royal decree,” said Robb. “There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath.”