House Frey: the Great Equalizer

[Indigo Cardinal]

The Freys were wronged, but I think killing the King and his entire party is a bit over the top for breaking a betrothal agreement. But I think in Walder Frey's place I would have demanded that in addition to Edmure marrying one of my daughters/granddaughters, that Robb proactively agrees that he'll marry his firstborn son and heir to a girlchild in my family of suitable age. Robb wasn't really in a place to refuse them much at this point.

I was about to add to demand Arya's re-engagement to Elmar Frey, but given that it seems widely accepted in Westeros that Arya Stark is dead, the Freys probably wouldn't see much point in that. I might demand that Cat marry a son of suitable age (it is implied that Cat's still young enough to have children, after all, and she had five healthy ones with her first husband--an older, unmarried son might be agreeable to this.) Basically, take advantage of the opportunity to increase my stranglehold on the Starks/Tullys.

However, part of the beauty of these stories is the reminder that actions have consequences--especially when dealing with people who are not necessarily rational. Walder Frey isn't known for suffering slights lightly, so really, Robb was pretty stupid to break an agreement with him, and it bit him (and everybody around him) in the ass.

Unfortunately, what the Freys did is going to have some serious repurcussions--first off, even amongst their allies, the Freys now have the reputation of not being trustworthy. Would *you* accept a dinner invitation from them ever again? (If Walder Frey thought he was slighted before, it's going to be interesting to watch him realize he'll now be outright shunned.) Secondly, if the Freys broke guestright, then what's to stop everybody else from doing it? This is undoubtedly going to make people in Westeros more paranoid than they were before.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

UnCat might be around due to supernatural forces but, as far as we know, she`s not driven by them. It`s extremely easy to understand her goals and motivations and they`re clearly rooted in a human and emotional desire. Not because the gods are pissed at them.

Although you could argue that Thoros was gifted his abilities for the soul reason of destroying the Freys.

Yes, one could. Especially given that UnCat is basically a manifestation of a Fury at this point. I just don't think you can write off the curse part of this particular incident as superstitious bunk without acknowledging UnCat and her role in all of this. The Freys are cursed — UnCat is hanging every one she gets her hands on.

[Aeternum]

The whole thing about 'guest right' is superstitious bs.]

Eh, no. The concept of guest right was very important in the Dark Ages. In societies where there is no rule of law, and no government institutions that people can rely on, guests have no choice but to put their trust in the hosts. If there isn't any agreed-upon hospitality at all, you'd be left out to die in the cold. Feudal societies didn't have any laws, but honor codes and obligations that were almost sacred to people. Early medieval Europe was one of those lawless places.

Organized crime is another of those places. The Mafia is basically a clan society outside the law - and they have this view on hospitality as well. About a week ago, I saw an Australian docu about an Italian-Australian cop who was working undercover to bust an Italian mobster in the area. What I really found interesting was how the cop was almost torn between two different worlds (the mainstream Australian society with its rule of law, and the family-based Mafia society with its rule of honor). He actually felt guilty about busting the mobster, because he'd been invited into the mobster's home and eaten at his table.

This is why everybody hates the Freys. It's not because OMG EVERYONE LUVS THE STARKS, but because the Freys took a massive shit on Dark Ages morality and chopped down one of the integral building blocks of society.

[Bluesnow]

Well, I don't like them, but I don't think I outright hate them. I don't find the RW particularly repulsive (I mean I don't think it's worse than any other political assassination plot), and there are many Freys I like (the obvious Rosby Freys, "Gatehouse" Ami, Fat Walda, Big Walder, Stevron, Elmar, I even kinda like old lord Walder).

Gregor Clegane is the true great equalizer, more than Ramsay or the Freys.

Yeah...

I mean... I've seen some people with some true Frey hate... but I have mixed feelings. I do agree that the Freys are jerks... but at the same time Robb broke a very big promise. I don't think it was particularly surprising that the Frey's switched sides. What gets people angry is that the Freys broke guest right, which was a pretty back handed move... but from a tactical point of view it was really a pretty impressive way to completely annihilate your enemy with very limited losses. The Freys at least had a reason to retaliate.

Gregar Clegane on the other hand... I will cry if I ever meet one of his fans I think D=

[Xasthur]

Gregar Clegane on the other hand... I will cry if I ever meet one of his fans I think D=

I'm a "fan" of his characterization, of what a mindless monster he his and how GRRM abandoned all "grey" character shaping and just created a super antagonist.

I think it's o.k. when people say that they are "fans" of Ramsay, Roose, the Freys, etc... It's the same way you are fan of Hannibal Lector, Freddy Krueger, Mike Myers etc., you just want a villian who gives you chills and provides some beef for the plot.

That doesn't mean you won't call the cops if you see a guy flaying your neighbor.

But I root for Ramsey and Roose because I want them to become main villians towards the end ... because I doubt there could be anyone more fitting for that role.

[IRON BANK]

Cant stand house frey! completely weak.

[Overlord of Skagos]

I like Lord Walder Frey..hes just an old man who has been overlooked by everyhouse all through his long life..not at its end..he just dosent give a shit about any of them or the traditions or customs or his own heirs..He lived his life grand like a boss..8 wives and an entire army spawned from his godly sacs! Man is a legend :bowdown:

[Booknerd2]

I can't wait for the Joffrey PW equalizer coming next season.

Imagine that Sunday night....

Just like the Red Wedding responses on twitter, the youtube videos, etc....

The hi-fiving, celebrating, and reactions from those who haven't read the books are going to be just as amusing.

[Overlord of Skagos]

I can't wait for the Joffrey PW equalizer coming next season.

Imagine that Sunday night....

Just like the Red Wedding responses on twitter, the youtube videos, etc....

The hi-fiving, celebrating, and reactions from those who haven't read the books are going to be just as amusing.

Honestly. I felt pretty sad when reading about how Joffery was choking to death and Cersei wailing. It was pretty tragic and cruel.

[Raining Blood Magic]

Most of the Freys are cruel and easy to hate but there are some decent ones. Roslin Frey/Tully, Olyvar Frey who was Rob's squire. He wasn't part of the RW and it is implied that he was still loyal to the Starks so they sent him away. Also there are a few other Freys who I can't think of now that are decent fellows. But still a few good Freys for the many that we hate doesn't even it out. I hope Dany melts the Twins down if she makes it to Westeros.

[Undead Ned With No Head]

I know some people feel sorry for Joffery cause he was just a scared child when he died but honestly fuck that evil bastard

[James March x2]

Let's examine for an instant the truth of the Frey PoV.

They were holding a key position for Robb's forces that prevented his soldiers from going south, in a time in which the lord of the Riverlands was already defeated and it was clear the Vale wouldn't join the fight. Tywyin was however very far from the twin towers, so Robb could have crushed the Frey castle - at the cost of thousands of deaths - before the Lannister would have joined the fight and helped the Frey repel the North.

Therefore - at the cost of huge promises - Walder Frey decides to gamble and sustain Robb, while waiting for the situation to improve further and develop. Note that he does not risk the lives of all the boys in his family letting them join the army marching south, he keeps a safe number with himself so that his line of succession will not be put in danger.

It is not clear how much Tywyin and other leaders had to do with Robb meeting this girl, dishonouring her and be "forced" to marry her - thus breaking his promise to the Frey - yet there are people who would sustain that it is not very unlikely, given what happens afterwards in the book, that the family of the Queen in the North did act under some kind of instructions coming from above.. in order to foster the growth of love and passion among the two young guys. It would certainly fit Tywyin's way of winning battles: political moves.

Anyway, at a certain point onward, the following conditions become true:

- The north coast is attacked by the Iron Born people, cities are sacked and forts conquered

- Winterfell is taken by Theon Greyjoy, two potential heir are officially known as murdered

- Robb is now King in the North by proclamation, his interest and action are now in clear opposition to the interests of any other pretendent to the Iron Throne. As a consequence, no alliance is possible with Renly or Stannis Baratheon

- Renly is killed and Tyrell army - which is the most numerous so far - goes home

- Stannis Baratheon is defeated at blackwater battle and has to retreat, now it has only few men at his service..

- The Tyrell stipulate an alliance with the Lannister

- Dorne is not yet aligned to anyone nor does seem to be willingly to do so

- Ned Stark - the Lord of Winterfell - has already been decapitated, yet the initial reason for the north to march south was to save him

- Lannister and Tywyin appear to be firmly soldered in KL and on the Iron Throne

- Lannisters are collecting another army at Casterly Rock

- Jamie Lannister is lost due to Catelyn freeing him in hope of having in return her children

- Karstark people left the northern camps

- Food reserves are running out for everyone and Winter is coming.. better not to fight in winter, better be in your own castle.

- The Vale still gives no signs of joining any side

Given all these facts undermining the northern cause, it is not a surprise that Frey and Bolton decided to think of themselves rather than sink with the whole boat. Both of them are pragmatic guys who think for the best of their family and wealth first, and only afterwards to vows and honour. Therefore they are very kin to Tywyin mindset and in the best position to stipulate a secret alliance to completely stop the rebellion in the north while gathering a higher social status and ensuring their own family position within the Kingdom of the seemingly indisputable King Joffrey.

Certainly the RW is really a blood bath that sounds as despicable and dishonourable to every one of us.. yet it was the byproduct of a rationale and cold calculation of mere convenience and opportunity, not a pure "evil and sadistic" act of vengeance. The fact that Robb broke is vow was just an excuse to bring him into the trap. Nobody would have contested Robb his choice if he was going to win and conquer power, because the ruler is always forgiven (almost) all due to his supremacy position.

What should Boltons and Frey do, let all his men die, their family lineage be at the risk of further repressions being requested by the whimsical King Joffrey, or rather climb up the ladder? The answer, in the grey world of middle age, is pretty obvious: At the game of the throne or you win or you die.

[qixoticneurotic]

I always wonder how theyre going to humanize lord walder. joffrey after all was just a boy and seeing him in the company of his mother and family brought that home. with lord walder hes a very old fragile man yet the idea of him having to run from wolves through a forest just doesn't elicit the sympathy that choking joff did.

[Arya kiddin']

I like both Fat Walda and Lord Walder Frey. Their remarks always crack me up.

[callmedodge]

Yes, one could. Especially given that UnCat is basically a manifestation of a Fury at this point. I just don't think you can write off the curse part of this particular incident as superstitious bunk without acknowledging UnCat and her role in all of this. The Freys are cursed — UnCat is hanging every one she gets her hands on.

Can`t argue there at all.

My main point of contention would now be WHY these superstitious powers are supposedly after the Freys. Guest Right is a First Men custom while UnCat is undoubtedly being "fueled" by a R`hollr-esque power, and inherently Essosi religion.

This would just fuel the idea that all magic is one in the same and that the religious stigma attached to it all is bogus. While this doesn`t suggest that there is or isn`t a deity or deities or sorts it does pose the question of whether Thoros was given his powers (and if so by whom or what?) or was he just lucky in somehow tapping into the magic. I`d be more inclined towards the latter with the words spoken by Red Priests actually being an ancient spell and with magic returning and whatever other requirements (presumably blood) being met he managed to pull it off. So the BwB finding and reviving Cat isn`t so much a destiny writ into time by some benevolent force as much as it is damn lucky (or unlucky depending on your point of view) that she was found.

It`s a blurry line for sure but to me there`s a huge difference between "Curse from the gods for breaking some rule" and "Magicked corpse enacting revenge".

Although this is all based on my original "supernatural bullseye" referring to a gods-will as opposed to magic in general, which in hindsight is a silly distinction to make. Magic is supernatural, there`s no real argument there.

Tl:DR, I just wasted 7 minutes of my life.

[NorthRemembers10]

I think that the Red Wedding was a stroke of genius because it set the stage for the series. Good guys die, bad guys can win. I think he did a great job of making everyone hate the Freys though.

[PrinceHenryris]

Eh, no. The concept of guest right was very important in the Dark Ages. In societies where there is no rule of law, and no government institutions that people can rely on, guests have no choice but to put their trust in the hosts. If there isn't any agreed-upon hospitality at all, you'd be left out to die in the cold. Feudal societies didn't have any laws, but honor codes and obligations that were almost sacred to people. Early medieval Europe was one of those lawless places.

It goes back even further. The "guest friend" concept is an important component of Homer's "Odyssey".

I've been told by classical scholars that the "guest friend" concept was vital for learning about what was happening in other places.

[Minsc]

My main point of contention would now be WHY these superstitious powers are supposedly after the Freys. Guest Right is a First Men custom while UnCat is undoubtedly being "fueled" by a R`hollr-esque power, and inherently Essosi religion.

Guest Right hardly just a First Men custom.

[Danielsnag]

The people who say they like the Freys are generally just hipsters, trying to look different by liking something everyone else hates.

They have literally no redeeming qualities. What they did was wrong, regardless of how they choose to justify it.

[Rhymes with Weak]

I actually grew to like Merret Frey in his brief stint as a POV character. He was the most luckless of the lot of them, it was a shame how it all turned out though. Hosteen amused me but that mostly comes from the fact that I know that one of Stannis' Knights will indent his brainless skull with a morning-star as he watches his army die about him.