Why No Smallfolk Revolts?

[The Grey Wolf]

Hi, Gray Wolf here. I was just wondering why aren't there any peasant revolts mentioned in the series history? [besides the fact Martin just didn't write any.] I mean, isn't a bit unrealistic that the smallfolk for 1000s of years have lived the way they do without once getting pissed off [pardon the language] enough to rebel? In real life there were rebellions by the commoners, usually because of lack of food I believe, and they were always crushed [commoners were never organized, trained, or equipped properly]. So why haven't any occurred in Westeros? For example during the Great Spring Sickness, when people were prevented from leaving their land by Bloodraven, shouldn't some have thought "you know, I'm not going to stay here and die because you said so". The commoners are not educated and know almost nothing of the world beyond their village I know but still. Your thoughts, everyone?

[Rhymes with Weak]

Hi, Gray Wolf here. I was just wondering why aren't there any peasant revolts mentioned in the series history? [besides the fact Martin just didn't write any.] I mean, isn't a bit unrealistic that the smallfolk for 1000s of years have lived the way they do without once getting pissed off [pardon the language] enough to rebel? In real life there were rebellions by the commoners, usually because of lack of food I believe, and they were always crushed [commoners were never organized, trained, or equipped properly]. So why haven't any occurred in Westeros? For example during the Great Spring Sickness, when people were prevented from leaving their land by Bloodraven, shouldn't some have thought "you know, I'm not going to stay here and die because you said so". The commoners are not educated and know almost nothing of the world beyond their village I know but still. Your thoughts, everyone?

There you go.

[The Prince of Ice]

There probably have been just haven't been stated so far. Most likely the peasants looked to the Church to help them in their revolts as that has happened numerous times throughout human history.

The peasants probably sided with the Faith Militant when they revolted but were crushed by the Targs. Peasants are sheep, without a Shepard to guide them they wont act.

[Balerion06]

I guess peasant revolts have happened, but simply aren't mentioned because they're never seen as significant.

Drawing from real life, nobody in the nobility ever thought that crushing a peasant revolt was "glorious", so there's not much incentive to keep any serious or detailed records of these happenings for posterity.

[MidnightAurora]

I am not sure about all of Westeros history, but there have been riots/revolts by smallfolk. Example is the one in KL where they kill the High Septon, rape Lollys etc..

In the other areas, they do not revolt because most are fighting with one side or another and they do sort of revolt by helping the outlaws. The smallfolk love the outlaws like Beric because he helps them where no other person does and that is a sort of revolt because even under questioning they still lie to protect them.

In history there were the Kingswood Band of Outlaws and the smallfolk loved them and helped them. It was not until Arthur Dayne got the smallfolk to love him that they started helping him instead of the outlaws and Arthur killed the outlaws leaders.

Arthur told Jaime that if the smallfolk love you they will be willing to do whatever for you, but if not than you are screwed sort of mentality. I feel as long as the smallfolk love you they will not rise up, but if they do not love you they will riot/revolt but w/o leaders to guide them they are probably more dangerous as seen of what they did to the high septon.

Hence why the smallfolk protest Magarey's imprisonment and not Cersei's because the smallfolk love Magarery.

[Ser Greg of House House]

The BwB is kind of what you're talking about. Also the sparrows.

[MidnightAurora]

I guess peasant revolts have happened, but simply aren't mentioned because they're never seen as significant.

Drawing from real life, nobody in the nobility ever thought that crushing a peasant revolt was "glorious", so there's not much incentive to keep any serious or detailed records of these happenings for posterity.

You are forgetting the peasant riots/revolts in France and where Nobility and Royalty alike should had taken notice and concerned themselves otherwise the revolution, storm of Bastille, and other events could have probably been prevented. There are note of some revolts through certain characters POV.

[MidnightAurora]

The BwB is kind of what you're talking about. Also the sparrows.

Agreed. Although the Faith resurrects their militant groups and use torture tactics so the sparrows are no better than the armies fighting. Unlike BWB with Beric who seemed to actually be trying to help the smallfolk and keep them safe and providing resources.

[The Prince of Ice]

The BwB is kind of what you're talking about. Also the sparrows.

The BwB isnt peasants mainly though, they are mainly made up of deserters from numerous armies.

As i said in my post above peasants look to the Church for guidance hence the Sparrows. If the Church isnt pushing for such a revolt then the mindless peasant sheep probably wont revolt because they have no leadership or holy support.

[The Grey Wolf]

All of you have provided wonderful explanations [and I forgot about the riot I admit]. Its just when I thought about it, what irked me was that the smallfolk are depicted as being entirely sheep, when it has been shown in history [which ASOIAF tries to emulate] though they were uneducated and untrained military-wise among other things, when the masses were pushed to the brink they didn't sit and take it quietly or go to the Church to complain. They rose in rebellion. That makes the passivity of the smalfolk for the most part in ASOIAF hard to swallow, unless revolts have occurred but Martin hasn't deemed them necessary to write into the story.

[MidnightAurora]

The BwB isnt peasants mainly though, they are mainly made up of deserters from numerous armies.

As i said in my post above peasants look to the Church for guidance hence the Sparrows. If the Church isnt pushing for such a revolt then the mindless peasant sheep probably wont revolt because they have no leadership or holy support.

Disagree. Beric's original band consisted of men that Ned sent to bring Gregor to justice and got ambushed. So they still consider themselves King Robert's men and bringing King's Justice. None of them deserted and the rest of his band grew from smallfolk as noted by the weapons some had when arya went to the cave where she first met Beric.

Peasants revolt even w/o holy support and sometimes hey revolt because of the wrongdoings of the faith. Example is the inquisition that the Catholics used and peasants revolted. Peasants are not sheep and will revolt and are more dangerous when they do not have a leader/common purpose. If they have a leader and revolt things can be better handled because usually they have a cause they are fighting and can be appeased. Peasants may not be able to read/write but they still have eyes and ears and can see what happens. Most of the fighting always occurs on their lands, so that would give them cause to revolt. Robert from POV seemed to be very loved by most peasants and had no reason it would seem to revolt against him as they had peace, food, protection.

Then bring in Joffrey and there is famine, prices skyrocketed, starvation, city to full etc.. Then you get the riots that we read where they tear apart the High Septon, rape Lollys, try to rape Sansa, throw things are Joffrey.

I would not call them mindless sheep and only revolt with leadership or holy support because there is too many stories/history that show otherwise.

[The Grey Wolf]

MidnightAurora you took the words right out of my mouth.

[The Prince of Ice]

Disagree. Beric's original band consisted of men that Ned sent to bring Gregor to justice and got ambushed. So they still consider themselves King Robert's men and bringing King's Justice. None of them deserted and the rest of his band grew from smallfolk as noted by the weapons some had when arya went to the cave where she first met Beric.

Peasants revolt even w/o holy support and sometimes hey revolt because of the wrongdoings of the faith. Example is the inquisition that the Catholics used and peasants revolted. Peasants are not sheep and will revolt and are more dangerous when they do not have a leader/common purpose. If they have a leader and revolt things can be better handled because usually they have a cause they are fighting and can be appeased. Peasants may not be able to read/write but they still have eyes and ears and can see what happens. Most of the fighting always occurs on their lands, so that would give them cause to revolt. Robert from POV seemed to be very loved by most peasants and had no reason it would seem to revolt against him as they had peace, food, protection.

Then bring in Joffrey and there is famine, prices skyrocketed, starvation, city to full etc.. Then you get the riots that we read where they tear apart the High Septon, rape Lollys, try to rape Sansa, throw things are Joffrey.

I would not call them mindless sheep and only revolt with leadership or holy support because there is too many stories/history that show otherwise.

When i call them mindless sheep i mean that without a leader(shepard) or holy support they usually dont revolt. I agree they can be more dangerous without leaders because of the difficulty to perceive what their next move is but when they dont have leaders they are not nearly as effective. Most of the smallfolk in ASOIAF and the real world in the Middle Ages fear the Church and wont act unless its deemed right by God. I understand sometimes smallfolk revolt without leadership or church support but not that much and if they do they are usually highly unsuccessful.

Also regarding Beric and his men if they were truely Kings men they would return to either Joff or Stannis because they are his heirs. Hence they are deserters.

[The Prince of Ice]

double post

[Harlaw of Harlaw!]

Sorry if this has been mentioned. How about the riot in Kings Landing? While it was on a "smallish" scale, they seemed to have revolt decently well. They seemed to be trying to kill anyone in the royal party. Since we have at least that one incident, I think it is safe to assume that peasant revolts happen, its the fact that they eventually get put down.

[Florina Laufeyson]

The BwB is kind of what you're talking about. Also the sparrows.

This. The Brotherhood Without Banners isnt just fallen knights or hedge knights who cant find work or want to "right the wrongs." Its also smallfolk who took up arms. Hell, the BwB has non-combatant allies all over the freaking place. Sharna's inn for example. People who feed information to them and each other. Oh yeah. Thats a revolt.

The sparrows are the smallfolk trying to find absolution in their faith. They do so in both militant means (beating people up sometimes) and just plain being a nuisance. Their numbers grow everyday. And theres foreshadowing of a faith war building. Hmm...

The smallfolk of King's Landing rioted over the lack of food. The Bread Riots are a thing. They ripped the High Septon into pieces for shit's sake!

Wildlings are not royal or noble of birth. They would basically be smallfolk.

We see slaves and freedmen in Slaver's Bay doing all sorts of antics.

Its not fair to say the smallfolk never revolt.

[Rheagar Prime]

well i guess if you count the kingswoods brotherhood and the KL riots then yes

[MasterJack]

wasnt there one after a gray scale incident in westeros? I dont remember the city, oldtown? The leader closed the gates and burned the ships, after the smallfolk killed him for it.

[The Grey Wolf]

I think I know what your talking about. Its mentioned somewhere in AFFC. Either the prologue or Sam's last chapter I think.

[MidnightAurora]

When i call them mindless sheep i mean that without a leader(shepard) or holy support they usually dont revolt. I agree they can be more dangerous without leaders because of the difficulty to perceive what their next move is but when they dont have leaders they are not nearly as effective. Most of the smallfolk in ASOIAF and the real world in the Middle Ages fear the Church and wont act unless its deemed right by God. I understand sometimes smallfolk revolt without leadership or church support but not that much and if they do they are usually highly unsuccessful.

Also regarding Beric and his men if they were truely Kings men they would return to either Joff or Stannis because they are his heirs. Hence they are deserters.

They tell Arya they serve King Robert and why would they want to serve Joffrey who is a Psychopath and Stannis who just wants something because it is his rights and do not really seem concern with the smallfolk. No one at this point is truly concerned about the smallfolk except their band. People fled to KL for protection and look at what Joffrey and others do to them there they starve and worse things happen. Again why go to either Stannis, or Joffrey? I mean they could have gone to Robb since most were Ned's men before, but do not see the need for them to go to either Joff or Stannis. Beric's band tries to help the smallfolk the best they can and do not see them as deserters because Ned tasked them in King Robert's name to bring King's Justice to the Mountain and his men. They are still doing that in my opinion. They are still serving King Robert even if he is dead they still serve the task Ned gave them in King Robert's name. By any rights they should have joined Robb, but I will not get into that. I just do not see your point in calling Beric and his band deserters when they did their job and most got killed by the Mountain;s men and beside it was a trap meant for Ned. Afterwards the band still serve King Robert and brings King's Justice to the area.

In the middle ages and other times in real life the only power the church had was the power of excommunication and the smallfolk feared that. The church knew they had other problems with the smallfolk too because the church deemed a lot of figureheads heretics in History but would dare not execute them because the smallfolk loved them. An example is Galileo Galilei, with his telescope noted that the earth circles the sun and not the sun circles the earth. He also discovered the sun and moon influenced the tides on earth. The Church called him a heretic and excommunicated or at least threatened but it did not sway him and they could not execute him for fear of the smallfolk rising up.

I am just not seeing your point and maybe with more examples from books/history I could see your point better.