Stannis is NOT a hypocrite

[The Witch King of Braavos]

There is a reason for this, it's not just random. Stannis is the best character in the series overall.

It is known :bowdown:

[redtree]

Renly actually had reason to rebel against Joffery no? Slaughtering the Hand of the King, Regent, Lord of Winterfell along with his entire household surely counts?

All of those has nothing to do with Renly, if he really sought justice for Ned and Jon Arryn how come he never asked North+Vale to ally ? And if he actually a just and fair man he would support Stannis as he is his older brother instead of declaring himself as king and merged with the Reach.Iron Thrones was clearly his goal.

[Sansa_Stark]

Renly actually had reason to rebel against Joffery no? Slaughtering the Hand of the King, Regent, Lord of Winterfell along with his entire household surely counts?

er. Unjustly calling his brother's death and slaughtering the Lord of the North and his heir, the heir of the Vale and various others is good call for rebelling.

[Winter's Knight]

All of those has nothing to do with Renly, if he really sought justice for Ned and Jon Arryn how come he never asked North+Vale to ally ? And if he actually a just and fair man he would support Stannis as he is his older brother instead of declaring himself as king and merged with the Reach.Iron Thrones was clearly his goal.

Stannis could not win. Nobody wanted Stannis remember? The Tyrells would withdraw. And Stannis had been hiding on DS for over a year, ignoring every summons Ned sent to him. Furthermore, he declared himself well after Renly did.

Stannis knowingly abandoned both his brothers in KL and ignored Ned completely-he has no one to blame but himself that Renly did not wish to serve him.

[a free shadow]

Stannis could not win. Nobody wanted Stannis remember? The Tyrells would withdraw. And Stannis had been hiding on DS for over a year, ignoring every summons Ned sent to him. Furthermore, he declared himself well after Renly did.

Stannis knowingly abandoned both his brothers in KL and ignored Ned completely-he has no one to blame but himself that Renly did not wish to serve him.

The quality of the thread just improved :D

[Nictarion]

Stannis could not win. Nobody wanted Stannis remember? The Tyrells would withdraw. And Stannis had been hiding on DS for over a year, ignoring every summons Ned sent to him. Furthermore, he declared himself well after Renly did.

Stannis knowingly abandoned both his brothers in KL and ignored Ned completely-he has no one to blame but himself that Renly did not wish to serve him.

These are facts too many choose to ignore. Especially hiding at DS, and leaving his brother and king to fend for himself. I love when people make excuses for Stannis not telling Robert about the children not being his.

[Winter's Knight]

These are facts too many choose to ignore. Especially hiding at DS, and leaving his brother and king to fend for himself. I love when people make excuses for Stannis not telling Robert about the children not being his.

Even if he felt Robert wouldn't believe him, why not tell Ned, especially when the latter is asking for your help? Even if Robert doesn't believe Ned, what's the worst that will happen? Remember, according to Stannis, Cersei already knows he knows and that's why she had Jon A, killed-he has nothing to lose by telling Ned and/or Bob.

Well, nothing except a shot at the throne of course.

[The Raging Bull]

I am not a fan of Stannis nor do I hate him. I enjoy his character, his role, his thoughts.

He would be an epic king or hand though. Who the fudge would go against him, knowing if you lost he wouldn't forgive you or pardon you he'd just kill you

[Nictarion]

Who the fudge would go against him, knowing if you lost he wouldn't forgive you or pardon you he'd just kill you

He did pardon the lords that fought for Renly.

[Lazy Lion]

Many people claim Stannis is a hypocrite because he killed Renly for rebelling against himself, but had himself rebelled against Aerys, the rightful king.

Stannis is a hypocrite...but this is not why.

[( Bloodraven )]

All of those has nothing to do with Renly, if he really sought justice for Ned and Jon Arryn how come he never asked North+Vale to ally ? And if he actually a just and fair man he would support Stannis as he is his older brother instead of declaring himself as king and merged with the Reach.Iron Thrones was clearly his goal.

:agree:

Renly was a strutting peacock who managed to join forces with the power-hungry Tyrells through Loras. Why Renly? Because he's easy to manipulate, single so they could marry him to Marg, and if he becomes king she'd be queen. Tyrells didnt want Stannis because he's married to a Florent, their rival house. They have NO hope of advancement if Stan becomes king because Stan hates psycopants and is known to hold a grudge (who could forget the Siege of SE?). Tyrells also prob thought Stannis was a fool and that it would be easy to get rid of him. Hah.

Also, If Stannis told robert about the lannisters, would robert believe him? Arryn, the only person other than stannis who knew what cersei was doing just died (and his wife fled to the eyrie). What assurance did Stannis have that he and his wife and daughter wont be next?

[Stanerys Snow]

Many people claim Stannis is a hypocrite because he killed Renly for rebelling against himself, but had himself rebelled against Aerys, the rightful king.

However, an oath of fealty cuts both ways. The oaths of fealty between the Reeds and Bran and Cately and Brienne show that the ruler has obligations towarss his vassals.

Aerys reneged on his side of the oath by attempting to execute Robert and Ned even though tbey were innocent, and refusing to offer Brandon and Rickard a fair trial. Since Aerys had broken his side of the oath of fealty, Stannis had every right to rebel.

"It is every man's duty to remain loyal to his rightful king, even if the lord he serves proves false," Stannis declared in a tone that brooked no argument.

A desperate folly took hold of Davos, a recklessness akin to madness. "As you remained loyal to King Aerys when your brother raised his banners?" he blurted.

"Aerys? If only you knew...that was a hard choosing. My blood or my liege. My brother or my king." He grimaced.

When Stannis chose to follow Robert into war, it was a hard decision to make. His brother had great cause to go against Aerys, and it was still a hard decision for Stannis, but he chose to do his duty to his brother and liege lord instead of his king. Stannis didn't seize an opportunity to take the throne for himself, nor did he do it for dreams of power and glory. He did it because it was his duty.

Renly took up arms against his own family, simply because he wanted to be king. Renly rebelled against children he believed to be his own blood, and admitted himself that even if Stannis was telling the truth he would still take up arms against Stannis too.

Do you suppose this tell of his is true? If Joffrey is the Kingslayer's get--"

"--your brother is the lawful heir."

"While he lives." Renly admitted. "Though it's a fool law, wouldn't you agree? Why the oldest son, and not the best-fitted? The crown will suit me, as it never suited Robert and would not suit Stannis. I have it in me to be a great king, strong yet generous, clever, just, diligent, loyal to my friends and terrible to my enemies, yet capable of forgiveness, patient--"

"--humble?" Catelyn supplied.

Renly laughed. "You must allow a king some flaws, my lady."

Let the three of you call for a Great Council, such as the realm has not seen for a hundred years. We will send to Winterfell, so Bran may tell his tale and all men may know the Lannisters for the true usurpers. Let the assembled lords of the Seven Kingdoms choose who shall rule them."

Renly laughed, "Tell me, my lady. do direwolves vote on who should lead the pack?....The time for talk is done. Now we see who is stronger."

Renly rebelled against his rightful king(his own blood) because he wanted to be king. Stannis rebelled against the rightful king because the rightful king decided to wrongfully demand the death of his liege lord(his own blood).

Stannis is not a hypocrite, because taken into context he has never done what he condemns Renly for doing. Stannis condemns Renly for taking up arms against his rightful king for nothing other than glory and power.

[Stanerys Snow]

Even if he felt Robert wouldn't believe him, why not tell Ned, especially when the latter is asking for your help? Even if Robert doesn't believe Ned, what's the worst that will happen? Remember, according to Stannis, Cersei already knows he knows and that's why she had Jon A, killed-he has nothing to lose by telling Ned and/or Bob.

Well, nothing except a shot at the throne of course.

He didn't tell Robert because he knew Robert wouldn't believe him, and he didn't tell Ned because he felt telling Ned was the same as telling Robert, considering how close they were. Stannis did not know Ned the way the readers know Ned, and therefore didn't view Ned as the readers view Ned. This is proven by Stannis' recollections of Ned, he views Ned as Robert's surrogate brother and minion. Telling Renly was have proves as unfruitful as telling Robert. Nothing could be done to stop the Lannisters by anyone that was in King's Landing, and Stannis was fully aware of this.

Stannis had no choice but to leave Robert and Renly in King's Landing while he formulated a plan. There was no reason to believe that Cersei would murder Robert given that he wasn't aware of her treason and Jon Arryn had just died under mysterious circumstances. Even Cersei isn't dumb enough to have Robert die under mysterious circumstances too. Robert's death was Robert's own fault, and he could have survived long enough for Stannis to form a plan if he hadn't been a drunken fool of a man.

He did pardon the lords that fought for Renly.

"These lords who flocked to my brother’s banners knew him for a usurper. They turned their backs on their rightful king for no better reason than dreams of power & glory, & I have marked them for what they are. Pardoned them, yes. Forgiven. But not forgotten."

They will get theirs.

[Anubisath]

Renly actually had reason to rebel against Joffery no? Slaughtering the Hand of the King, Regent, Lord of Winterfell along with his entire household surely counts?

Only he never even remotely hinted at doing his rebellion because he found Joffrey unfit to rule and condemned what he did to Eddard Stark.

We know why Stannis claims the throne(, we know why the Lannisters make a claim and the Starks want(ed) to avenge Ned. And Daenarys is ofc the most obvious of all. But Renly was just in it for himself, had no reason and was just a self entitled, pompous little man-child all throughout.

[Nictarion]

"These lords who flocked to my brother’s banners knew him for a usurper. They turned their backs on their rightful king for no better reason than dreams of power & glory, & I have marked them for what they are. Pardoned them, yes. Forgiven. But not forgotten."

They will get theirs.

So he will win his throne, and then start taking out all the lords that helped him win it, yeah I don't see him lasting long with that mentality.

[Winter's Knight]

Only he never even remotely hinted at doing his rebellion because he found Joffrey unfit to rule and condemned what he did to Eddard Stark.

We know why Stannis claims the throne(, we know why the Lannisters make a claim and the Starks want(ed) to avenge Ned. And Daenarys is ofc the most obvious of all. But Renly was just in it for himself, had no reason and was just a self entitled, pompous little man-child all throughout.

Renly vied for the throne because he was not safe with the Lannisers ruling-it's why he approached Ned with his plan to seize Joff, and why he fled KL once Robert died. I thought this point was fairly obvious-taking the throne was Renly's last resort.

I'd just like to point out that despite knowing he was in danger, Renly stayed with his elder brother until he died.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

He didn't tell Robert because he knew Robert wouldn't believe him, and he didn't tell Ned because he felt telling Ned was the same as telling Robert, considering how close they were. Stannis did not know Ned the way the readers know Ned, and therefore didn't view Ned as the readers view Ned. This is proven by Stannis' recollections of Ned, he views Ned as Robert's surrogate brother and minion. Telling Renly was have proves as unfruitful as telling Robert. Nothing could be done to stop the Lannisters by anyone that was in King's Landing, and Stannis was fully aware of this.

Stannis had no choice but to leave Robert and Renly in King's Landing while he formulated a plan. There was no reason to believe that Cersei would murder Robert given that he wasn't aware of her treason and Jon Arryn had just died under mysterious circumstances. Even Cersei isn't dumb enough to have Robert die under mysterious circumstances too. Robert's death was Robert's own fault, and he could have survived long enough for Stannis to form a plan if he hadn't been a drunken fool of a man.

Ned thought of Stannis as more trustworthy than Littlefinger or Varys. Yet he still worked with the latter two and let them steer him towards the truth. There was no reason for Ned to distrust Stannis (whose claim he supported) nor was there reason for Stannis to distrust Ned. He admitted that Ned was honorable but he didn't want to help Ned because he was resentful at Robert's preference for Ned.

I don't believe that Stannis was wrong or hypocritical for the shadowbaby incident. Renly knew Stannis wouldn't give up his own claim. He was well aware it would be a fight to the death. REnly played the game of thrones and lost. That isn't anybody else's fault.

There is however, no way to exonerate Stannis' inaction between the death of Jon Arryn and the deaths of Robert and Ned. He was serving himself, not the realm, not Robert, his king. To excuse Stannis you really have to bend over backwards and ignore Stannis' own words in the ACOK prologue.

[Nictarion]

I'd just like to point out that despite knowing he was in danger, Renly stayed with his elder brother until he died.

Great point, while the supposed "bamf" brother was hiding on DS, waiting to pick up the scraps.

[Stanerys Snow]

So he will win his throne, and then start taking out all the lords that helped him win it, yeah I don't see him lasting long with that mentality.

He will punish them, not kill them. They will be rewarded for their service, and punished for their treason.

Ned thought of Stannis as more trustworthy than Littlefinger or Varys. Yet he still worked with the latter two and let them steer him towards the truth.

Stannis had no way of knowing that.

There was no reason for Ned to distrust Stannis (whose claim he supported) nor was there reason for Stannis to distrust Ned. He admitted that Ned was honorable but he didn't want to help Ned because he was resentful at Robert's preference for Ned.

Exactly, his resentment of Ned is what caused him to believe that telling Ned was the same as telling Robert. He believed that Ned would do the most honorable thing, immediately tell Robert of his suspicions. Stannis had no way of knowing that Ned was wary of the "new Robert" and the Lannister influence over him.

I don't believe that Stannis was wrong or hypocritical for the shadowbaby incident. Renly knew Stannis wouldn't give up his own claim. He was well aware it would be a fight to the death. REnly played the game of thrones and lost. That isn't anybody else's fault.

There is however, no way to exonerate Stannis' inaction between the death of Jon Arryn and the deaths of Robert and Ned. He was serving himself, not the realm, not Robert, his king. To excuse Stannis you really have to bend over backwards and ignore Stannis' own words in the ACOK prologue.

Stannis' own words in ACOK prologue is what led me to my conclusions about how Stannis viewed Ned. Stannis was operating based on his own personal beliefs, regardless of their validity.

ETA: Stannis had no way of knowing that Robert and Ned would lose their lives, and they both died due to their own poor decisions. He had every reason to believe that he had time to figure out a plan, because Cersei didn't seem to feel the need to get rid of Robert. Robert being alive assured her children's assent to the throne. And since we are unaware of what Stannis was doing on Dragonstone during AGoT, it is unfair to assume that he was doing nothing.

[Rod123]

Stannis is not an hypocrite, but his fans certainly are.