How will History Remember Robb Stark - The King who Rose?

[BKev]

I have a hard time attributing Robb's downfall to treachery alone. It was his fault. He made the mistake of dishonoring the agreement that his Lady Mother risked to make to ensure his army could cross the Twins. He should have respected that and done his duty. Then he would have made a great King. There is no defense of what Walder Frey did in retaliation of the broken vow... but it never would have happened if Robb hadn't disrespected him. As such, I think he will be remembered by all as the Young Wolf who was too headstrong, immature and careless to lead his people to victory.

With all due respect, I disagree. I think Lord Frey would have betrayed Robb Stark no matter what. Robb breaking his vow only sped up the process, but I'm fairly sure Frey and Roose would have gone ahead with the Red Wedding (or another way to assassinate the KitN) in either case, as Robb was still losing the war. Granted, he would have had Frey men still with him and it might have delayed things, but ultimate I think Tywin was always going to win against Robb. Besides, Tywin has way more to offer and Frey and Bolton simply benefited so much more from siding with Tywin than staying true to Robb.

[Mladen]

Except the Lannisters were stronger from the get go. Cat doesn't free Jaime Rw doesnt happen

Back on topic: Robb will probably be remembered in a tragic romance light

No, no, RW didn't happen because Jaime was released. RW would be organized, they would be captured instead of being killed and most likely Tywin would offer Blackfish exchange of prisoners... RW wasn't organized in 2 days.

[the Sword of the Prevening]

With all due respect, I disagree. I think Lord Frey would have betrayed Robb Stark no matter what. Robb breaking his vow only sped up the process, but I'm fairly sure Frey and Roose would have gone ahead with the Red Wedding (or another way to assassinate the KitN) in either case, as Robb was still losing the war. Granted, he would have had Frey men still with him and it might have delayed things, but ultimate I think Tywin was always going to win against Robb. Besides, Tywin has way more to offer and Frey and Bolton simply benefited so much more from siding with Tywin than staying true to Robb.

Why? If Robb didn't break his word with Walder, he most likely would still have been alive and had an army even after Tywin was dead. He didn;t have to marry until the war was over. Why would Walder plot against him and execute such a devious plan if one of his daughters was to become Queen of the North, the best match Frey could ever hope for.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Why? If Robb didn't break his word with Walder, he most likely would still have been alive and had an army even after Tywin was dead. He didn;t have to marry until the war was over. Why would Walder plot against him and execute such a devious plan if one of his daughters was to become Queen of the North, the best match Frey could ever hope for.

Even if Robb hadn't married Jeyne, that doesn't change the fact that he had already lost Winterfell and a fair chunk of the North to the ironborn. I think that's what people mean when they say that the Freys and Boltons smelled blood in the water and would have turned on Robb anyway — the broken marriage contract just gave Walder a reason.

[Duncan the Lunk'n]

As a great battle commander, he smashing almost everyone and everything in his path,

[the Sword of the Prevening]

Even if Robb hadn't married Jeyne, that doesn't change the fact that he had already lost Winterfell and a fair chunk of the North to the ironborn. I think that's what people mean when they say that the Freys and Boltons smelled blood in the water and would have turned on Robb anyway — the broken marriage contract just gave Walder a reason.

Thats understandable. But the way I see it they would not have had such a good opportunity to betray him as soon as they did. By the time they would have pulled something off Joffrey and Tywin most likely would have been dead (obviosuly they had no way of knowing that but still). That probably would have made them rethink such a betrayal. Frey could have still gotten his wishes of a daughter/granddaughter as queen.

[Clockwork of House Orange]

I was hoping the World of Ice and Fire book would go all the way to about 300 AL, would be pretty cool to see a measter's perspective of the War of the Five Kings... Although I guess that account is still yet to be written, by the eventual victor of the whole mess.

[Chaircat Meow]

Actually, I am pretty sure we know that Frey would never have betrayed Robb in the way he did absent Robb's own actions. There was a reason why Tywin was so pleased about this, and a reason we learn that Walder is so peevish and motivated by slights.

Here is the author making it all clear (lets try to stop exonerating Robb of his follies) ... http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Some_Questions1

[Mad Monkey]

The Freys really remind me of the Tyrells in that they really want one of their women to become the queen of something. The Freys would have kept faith as long as Robb had at least a 50% chance of winning. Losing the marriage alliance probably raised the threshold that they would need to keep faith though (for instance, I don't think that Frey would betrayed Robb Stark if he had somehow seized King's Landing or captured the Westerlands -- if his chances of victory were almost guaranteed, they would have to be crazy to push him away no matter what he did). It's a classic risk/reward thing -- the Freys were willing to take on a huge risk in the first place exchange for a huge reward (queen of the North and the Trident); once that reward was basically taken away, they were no longer willing to take on any real risk at all and were now very highly inclined to betrayal.

As far as Robb Stark being remembered, I think he will probably become a folk hero. You don't have to win to be a folk hero, you just have to go out in a blaze of glory. There will be a lot of people who look at the North as it is now and opine that it would be so much better if only the Young Wolf were around, kind of like how a lot of people currently (in the books) look at the realm and wonder how much better it would have been if Rhaegar had come back from the Trident.

[LordReaper]

I have a hard time attributing Robb's downfall to treachery alone. It was his fault. He made the mistake of dishonoring the agreement that his Lady Mother risked to make to ensure his army could cross the Twins. He should have respected that and done his duty. Then he would have made a great King. There is no defense of what Walder Frey did in retaliation of the broken vow... but it never would have happened if Robb hadn't disrespected him. As such, I think he will be remembered by all as the Young Wolf who was too headstrong, immature and careless to lead his people to victory.

I must disagree on that point. Robb's mistake was losing the North and the war. Had he returned with the spoils of Casterly Rock and King's Landing and/or Tywin's head on a spear, Walder Frey would mumble and grumble in private - and that's it. In my opinion, if Jeyne Westerling never existed, the RW would still had proceeded as planned.

And yes, in the North he would be remembered as a hero - excluding the Freys and Boltons, if any survive.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Thats understandable. But the way I see it they would not have had such a good opportunity to betray him as soon as they did. By the time they would have pulled something off Joffrey and Tywin most likely would have been dead (obviosuly they had no way of knowing that but still). That probably would have made them rethink such a betrayal. Frey could have still gotten his wishes of a daughter/granddaughter as queen.

I think the bolded part is the most relevant here.

[Drexyon7]

No, no, RW didn't happen because Jaime was released. RW would be organized, they would be captured instead of being killed and most likely Tywin would offer Blackfish exchange of prisoners... RW wasn't organized in 2 days.

Was two days really the timeframe from Jaime's release to the RW? if so you're right it probably did need more then a couple days planning

[Allison of Tarth]

The North will remember him as a tragic hero and also probably as a cautionary tale about keeping your word.

[Mladen]

Was two days really the timeframe from Jaime's release to the RW? if so you're right it probably did need more then a couple days planning

Of course not, it was the figure of speech :bang: . Point is that RW plans began the moment Robb married Jeyne. That, and the fact Tyrells sided with Lannisters shifted Freys' and Boltons' loyalties. Remember that Roose was thinking about his options when Jaime was in Harrenhall. By that time, some of arrangements were already been made.

[Frey Pie]

Actually, I am pretty sure we know that Frey would never have betrayed Robb in the way he did absent Robb's own actions. There was a reason why Tywin was so pleased about this, and a reason we learn that Walder is so peevish and motivated by slights.

Here is the author making it all clear (lets try to stop exonerating Robb of his follies) ... http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Some_Questions1

So he'd have gotten a knife in the dark, or an arrow in the back and his bannermen would be killed or taken prisoner- same result as the RW just not as bloody. Although I imagine a fair number of men would still be slaughtered so

[BKev]

Actually, I am pretty sure we know that Frey would never have betrayed Robb in the way he did absent Robb's own actions. There was a reason why Tywin was so pleased about this, and a reason we learn that Walder is so peevish and motivated by slights.

Here is the author making it all clear (lets try to stop exonerating Robb of his follies) ... http://www.westeros....Some_Questions1

Well, that's a good point, however I don't think it changes the grand scheme of things. Both Frey and Bolton would have started looking for a way out, a way to be on the winning side (Frey we know for sure, since GRRM says so himself in the link you provided). Perhaps no Red Wedding, but the end result is the same : Robb Stark dies. As I said, the benefits of betraying Robb (and especially having him killed) are huge for both Bolton and Frey. One becomes the new Warden of the North, the other one the new Lord of the Riverlands. They wouldn't get that with Robb.

Ultimately, I think those are big reasons to even begin plotting.

[Joe Pine]

'Young Wolf' will stick, but his perception is for whoever survives to write.

[Chaircat Meow]

So he'd have gotten a knife in the dark, or an arrow in the back and his bannermen would be killed or taken prisoner- same result as the RW just not as bloody. Although I imagine a fair number of men would still be slaughtered so

What you described is just what happened at the RW! LOL. But the author tells us his betrayal would have been less savage and that the RW was motivated by his desire for revenge.

Look, deny it all you want, I'm beyond caring, but suggesting Robb didn't bring about his own doom is ridiculous, the author couldn't have done a better job of confirming it if he wanted to.

edit: it is funny you insist Robb is such an interesting character but try to remove nearly all points of interest and/or edges to him. I mean, I think he's more textured and still find him dull ...

[Chaircat Meow]

Well, that's a good point, however I don't think it changes the grand scheme of things. Both Frey and Bolton would have started looking for a way out, a way to be on the winning side (Frey we know for sure, since GRRM says so himself in the link you provided). Perhaps no Red Wedding, but the end result is the same : Robb Stark dies. As I said, the benefits of betraying Robb (and especially having him killed) are huge for both Bolton and Frey. One becomes the new Warden of the North, the other one the new Lord of the Riverlands. They wouldn't get that with Robb.

Ultimately, I think those are big reasons to even begin plotting.

No, read the damn link ffs. The author is clear Frey would have 'disentangled himself sooner or later' (which just means abandon his cause, not kill him) but that he butchered Robb because of the dishonour done to him, i.e. because of his marriage to Jeyne.

[Petyr Patter]

Not only did Robb win every battle he was present, but won battles in which he was outnumbered and did so in unpredictable ways.

• He successfully tricked Tywin Lannister into pursuing a feint.
  
• He captured the Captain of King's Guard and one of the famous swordsmen of his day in a surprise raid.
  
• He broke the Siege of Riverrun despite being outnumbered.
  
• He found a previously undiscovered trail to bypass the Golden Tooth.
  
• He attacks a much larger army less than a week's march from Casterly Rock, completely undetected and scatters them, allowing the army to pillage the Westerlands with virtual impunity.
  

How did he lose it? Treachery, lots and lots of treachery.

• Theon Greyjoy and the Ironborn.
  
• Ramsay Snow working to destabilize the North so the lords still there could not unite to drive out the Ironborn, or at least resist them.
  
• Roose Bolton communicating with Tywin and letting Jaime, the hostage worth Robb Stark in a fair trade, escape to King's Landing.
  
• Well it may not become public knowledge, the fact his aunt refused to join the war on his side and then proceeded to marry a "Lannister man" speaks volumes.
  
• And finally in comes Walder Frey who kills him during a wedding, breaking the sacred rite of hospitality after promising a renewed alliance.
  
• Heck, we can probably include the Karstarks on this list, whose lord murdered prisoners under Robb's protection, and whose men abandoned his cause soon after.
  

Ultimately, he is going to be remembered. Tywin himself describes Robb as a dangerous opponent who needed to dealt with quickly and cheaply even after the Blackwater and Duskendale.

So, opinions will be split on him. A commander who NEVER lost a battle, and won some unexpected and decisive victories will be long remembered. The fact he lost the war will either make him a cautionary tale, that you can win every battle and still lose the war. Or, it will make him a romantic folk hero, the young, brilliant would be king who rode with a magical direwolf into battle, yet was killed when lesser men became jealous!

Probably both.

That fact he made some notable political blunders is almost inconsequential. Everyone makes some mistakes, but it was the treachery of others that ultimately doomed his cause and it was treachery that killed him.