Deconstructions in Martin's universe

[Knight Of Winter]

As a series, ASOIAF is often praised for deconstructions of various standard fantasy tropes, character and archetypes. I find this topic interesting, and I'd like to use this thread to highlight and discuss some of deconstructions Martin wrote in his universe.

Ned

- classic hero. Sympathetic character with high ethical standards who overcomes all the challenges while preserving his moral values.

- Ned's plans are thwarted because of his moral standards and naivete. Being unable to behave at least a bit Machiavellian for once in his life (informing Cersei, refusing Renly), Ned plunged Westeros into a war with thousands of victims, including his own family.

Sansa

- classic princess. Young lady who sees world as a fairy tale story with heroic knights, beautiful ladies and horrible monsters. As with most fairy tales, someone's beauty equals his/her goodness.

- Sansa's naive views prevent her from seeing Joffrey's and Cersei's true natures. Mistakenly believing Joffrey to be classic Prince Charming, she didn't notice his obviously monstrous personality until Ned's execution. I like the contrast between her He was too beautiful to be guilty (after Mycah's death) and She wondered how could she have ever found him beautiful (after Ned's death) thoughts.

Arya

- willfull, tomboyish princess. Spirited girl who ignores social norms and follows her own sense of right and wrong.

- her ignoring the social rules and etiquette has consequences. For example, physically attacking crown prince while protecting the butcher boy leads to series of events that culminate in Mycah's death (note: I'm not claiming Arya is somehow responsible of Mycah's death here), while she herself could have very easily gotten killed as well.

Stannis

- just and righteous king. Unlike „evil“ or „unworthy“ contenders for the throne, here's the one who's utterly just, honorable, incorruptible and truly cares about the realm.

- his inflexibility and unwillingness to compromise leave him with very few loyal subjects (unlike every other king). Others find him difficult to follow him because of his rigid and uncompromising values.

Rhaegar / Lyanna

- true love. Two young, beautiful and spirited young people escape clutches of political marriages, run away and enjoy their mutual love. Their love is what's important, and all the rest can go hell.

- everything else indeed went straight to hell. Them eloping was the major cause of civil war that saw countless killed and both of their families almost destroyed. As it turns out, ignoring social norms (like political marriages) cannot by done with impunity.

King Bob of Westeros / Queen Dany of Meereen

- the king who ruled wisely. After deposing the old crazy king / old evil slave-owning aristocracy, new young and charismatic rules takes his/their place. Correcting the misgivings and errors or previous system, new ruler manages to create better kingdom/society.

- except for not. Robert turned out to be irresponsible drunkard who preferred whoring to ruling. After 15 years, he still cares more about his long dead love (the main reason he went to war) than his wife, which causes resentment on her part – and thus becomes partially responsible for his downfall.

Dany, meanwhile,establishes herself as Queen of Meereen. Much like GGRM's quote:

What does that mean, he ruled wisely? What were his tax policies? What did he do when two lords were making war on each other? Or barbarians were coming in from the North? What was his immigration policy? What about equal rights for Orcs? I mean did he just pursue a genocidal policy, "Let’s kill all these fucking Orcs who are still left over"? Or did he try to redeem them? You never actually see the nitty-gritty of ruling."

she also faces challenges of actual ruling: how to abolish slavery and how long will it take? How to treat former slave-owning class? How to stop Sons of the Harpy? How to punish atrocities committed during the sack? How to treat with Yunkai's army? What's her stance on Astapor? How to respond to Dornishmen coming to court? Having zero experience at ruling, Dany mostly fails to make effective ruler.

Thoughts? Comments? Other examples?

[Mladen]

Sansa/Arya/Lyanna - deconstruction of women's domesticity in Westeros (entire essay about it can be found here)

In short, Martin uses she-wolf motif for all of these three ladies to emphasize the feminist phylosophy of his books. She-wolf motif provided GRRM wonderful depiction of three women that rejected the norms and rules they were bound by. Lyanna renounced to be domesticated wife of bohemian lord, Arya rejects the notion of being lady, and Sansa rejects being the faithful wife and subject to those she hates. In all three of them, we see endless pursuit for freedom, something we rarely see in fantasy genre. These ladies are not one-dimensional, they don't have specific roles - mothers, women warriors, princess. By going beyond the tropes, Martin gives us the most beautiful idea of feminism - we are not defined by our gender.

[Knight Of Winter]

entire essay- here

Amazing work and excellent read :bowdown: .Oftentimes, I'm truly surprised at depth of Martin's books which you and other posters manage to find.

That's the problem with entire Reread section. Once I start reading all the fantastic posts there, I usually end up being on the forums few hours longer than planned :P

[LordStoneheart]

This is a counterproductive point, but Robert was pretty spot on for the Fat Whore King cliche.

[jenerationx]

Re: Arya, very rarely does the willful/tomboyish princess become so embittered and dark that she gets put on the path of becoming an assassin herself. The impact to her character is of far greater significance than nearly getting killed herself (which can be said of almost every character at some point) and even the death of Mycah. The deconstruction is in what she has become/is becoming.

Catelyn is another good one -- the mother figure who ends up being much more; capturing one of her enemies, advising her young son on the strategy of war, then returning from the dead to exact vengeance.

There's also Robb, which GRRM himself has talked about as the obvious choice to be the next in line, the son who will rise up to avenge his father's death and become the beloved ruler, only to be killed when his immaturity leads him to break a vow made toward an ally.

[Knight Of Winter]

@jenerationx:

Re:Arya - I wasn't trying to in-depth analyze Arya's character and her development (and there's already a topic dedicated exactly to that), merely to show that some aspects of Arya's AGOT personality can be seen as deconstruction willful princess trope. You make a good point about Arya's fate (becoming an assassin) is a deconstruction in itself.

Re: Cat - I remember GRRM talking about almost total absence of mother characters in fantasy books. He mentioned how nobody likes to read about e.g. King's Arthur's mother while he's off adventuring. Since he wanted to explore mother character, he created Catelyn - so I guess Cat's very existence can be regarded as deconstruction (though maybe subversion would better fit here) of sorts.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I don't think Robert deconstructs anything. He's a classic case of the hedonist warrior who was not fit to rule and I believe he was always setup to be that character.

I'd like to throw in Tyrion. He start off seeming to be that lovable, misunderstood dwarf that's easy to root for, and no matter how much he's mocked, he kept a good sense of humor and stability and didn't let it all penetrate him. Instead we find out that he's really a miserable dude, years of abuse and mockery have really got to him, he's self-centered and ruthless, and eventually becomes a murderer and rapist. It's like George is telling us there's no such thing as a perfectly mentally stable dwarf in an unforgiving and cruel society, and years of abuse will take its toll, rather than result in a perfectly jolly and lovable guy.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

I'm looking forward to how Jon's hero's journey trope is deconstructed. A lot of people think he's just a straight up cliché, but I'm 99% sure GRRM has a twist in store for his arc.

[juanml82]

Jon Snow:

The Chosen One. A humble orphan with a Cinderella childhood, joins a warrior monk order to step aside from his 'trueborn' brother, and raises through the ranks faster than a player character in one of the Elder Scrolls videogames. Becomes a seasoned and wise commander after quick lessons by a host of older, wise, mentors. Advices a King and rejects his deepest desires because of his duty. Understands an immediate and disruptive change has to be done to the lands he lives in (allying with the wildlings) to survive the incoming onslaught and doesn't shy away from personally leading the change.

Gets stabbed in the gut for all his troubles.

[TheCasualObserver]

I do enjoy the books and appreciate the freshness of so much deconstruction. However, I can't help but get the sense that this habit showcases a deep seated cynicism on GRRM's part - most people knew that the medieval era was no picnic without reading the series and since this is a fiction, the world is only as dark as George wants it to be.

But if you're reading this George, please don't change...

[CosimaistheHottest]

Lyanna is the deconstruction of the tomboy princess who breaks all the social rules of her society and still gets rewarded in the end. Obviously this was not the case for her. If she did run away from home, she helped create the spark that led to Robert's Rebellion that killed thousands of people including her own father, brother, and lover which also risked the life of her other family members. Her lovers political arranged wife was brutally raped and murdered along with her children. And Lyanna slowly died in a foreign land far away from home. Talk about deconstruction.

Ned is the honest, honorable man who always does for right and believes in the powers of law and justice. He dies after shaming his honor and as a traitor.

Arya is the tomboy princess who always dreamed of going on adventures and away from her life as a lady. She got her wish except at a price her parents and siblings murdered, her house in ruin. She has essentially become a child soldier.

Sansa always believed in the stories of good triumphing over evil. She is the princess classic. She is sweet, gentle, and beautiful. She is the damsel in distress. She realizes that all those things are a lie and life isn't a song it can be hell. Don't trust others. Her prince charming is a monster and she is forced to marry an ugly little person.

Robb is the Young Wolf. He should be the hero of the story. His father unjustly murdered. He rises up and wins every battle his enemies throw at him. He is obviously going to win. He does the honorable thing like marry the girl he "loves" and had sex with. He, his mother, and his men are brutally murdered at a shocking wedding feast.

The Starks seem to get hit with the deconstructions more than anything. But they are the ones who do seem naive and sheltered more than others.

[CosimaistheHottest]

Rhaegar Targaryen the handsome brooding prince who is good at everything who reads a prophecy and decides he must become a warrior. He is beloved by everyone. He is forced into a political marriage to a woman who after two kids can't bear anymore and then later on finds his true love who is a spunky warrior girl who of course will give him more children because she is so strong . He realizes that she has been put in front of him because she is meant to be his. They run off together and live their own love story for months. Usually this is where the prince stops people from doing things that can cause trouble because he is so much smarter than everyone else. He doesn't. While him and his lover have been living in their own world, his father has murdered her father and brother. He has also tried to murder her other brother and fiance. This has led to a war. Thousands have died already. The Prince finally come back and everything should be okay and he will win and everything. Wrong. His politically arranged wife has become a hostage to his madman father. His army isn't in the best shape some of his allies are upset with him. He goes to fight the rebels. Instead of winning and surviving and going back to his lover, he dies in the first real fight that he has ever had that we know of.