What do other StanStans think about Melisandre?

[illrede]

Way more literate than someone who writes 'she has tangible power'

'she has substantial power'. Same. Exact. Thing.

You're using english. Cry a bit and get over it.

[The Don Dadda]

tangible- real or actual, i.e. she has real magical power. As evidenced by killing Orell's eagles without force of arms. What else you got brah?

No something that is tangible is something that you can touch. Can you touch her magic or her power? Unless your being euphemistic, then I don't think you can.

[The Great Walrus]

She was and still is a useful tool, but in the long run has damaged Stannis' prospects more then she could've helped him.

[StannisBamfatheon]

'she has substantial power'. Same. Exact. Thing.

You're using english. Cry a bit and get over it.

Yeah i mean, Tangible - "real or actual" "capable of being identified" "definite" So far he's 0-2 on knowing what owning and tangible means. Maybe third times a charm TaheddaClond?

edit: Just for you buddy! http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tangible?s=t It may come as a surprise to you, but words can have more than one meaning, crazy I know!!

[illrede]

No something that is tangible is something that you can touch. Can you touch her magic or her power? Unless your being euphemistic, then I don't think you can.

Again, welcome to the germanic-norse-romance linguistic hybrid that ate the world.

[The Don Dadda]

Yeah i mean, Tangible - "real or actual" "capable of being identified" "definite" So far he's 0-2 on knowing what owning and tangible means. Maybe third times a charm TaheddaClond?

edit: Just for you buddy! http://dictionary.re...se/tangible?s=t It may come as a surprise to you, but words can have more than one meaning, crazy I know!!

Saying that an abstract noun can be tangible and then talking about the gaps in other peoples knowledge....awkward

[The Don Dadda]

Again, welcome to the germanic-norse-romance linguistic hybrid that ate the world.

Yeah ok substantial is synonymous with tangible just like food is synonymous with hunger and sky is synonymous with falling

[illrede]

Saying that an abstract noun can be tangible and then talking about the gaps in other peoples knowledge....awkward

Awkward is every generation giving us a new crop of nouns that have become verbs. It's still spitting into the wind going around proclaiming verboten.

[Mad Monkey]

Melisandre is a sweetheart who tries to make people like her even though it means that she has to neglect taking care of herself and her needs. Like Cressen before her, she gravitates before the relatively needy Baratheon brother because he needs the most love and attention.

[Associate Maester]

I believe debate about the nature of the English language belongs in the general forum. How about getting back to the actual thread topic?

[illrede]

Yeah ok substantial is synonymous with tangible just like food is synonymous with hunger and sky is synonymous with falling

Substantial and tangible have the same issue with being applied to an abstract; which neither has physical substance nor can be physically manipulated. And they're still good english. Because it is very hard for something to be bad english. The minimum threshhold for English comprehension is insane.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

She uses beautiful rubies to do magic.

Ghost likes her.

She can melt ice with her sizzling hotness.

She has a great fashion sense.

She's fabulous! Glamour personified. Anyone who hates her is just jealous of her beauty! :fencing:

[StannisBamfatheon]

Saying that an abstract noun can be tangible and then talking about the gaps in other peoples knowledge....awkward

I'm done wasting my time arguing semantics with you buddy. But if it'll help you rest easier at night, Mel has "definite/actual" power, in that her magic gives her capabilities that exceed that of a normal person on Westeros.

[illrede]

I believe debate about the nature of the English language belongs in the general forum. How about getting back to the actual thread topic?

Uh, Stannis? I think he would give a small stern nod of approval...

[The Don Dadda]

Substantial and tangible have the same issue with being applied to an abstract; which neither has physical substance nor can be physically manipulated. And they're still good english. Because it is very hard for something to be bad english. The minimum threshhold for English comprehension is insane.

No because the notion of an abstract can be greater or smaller in various contexts i.e. Tywin has substantially more power than Kevan, but an abstract, by definition, can never be tangible

[illrede]

No because the notion of an abstract can be greater or smaller in various contexts i.e. Tywin has substantially more power than Kevan, but an abstract, by definition, can never be tangible

That's an argument for 'more'.

[butterbumps!]

No because the notion of an abstract can be greater or smaller in various contexts i.e. Tywin has substantially more power than Kevan, but an abstract, by definition, can never be tangible

This is ridiculous. "Tangible" is not limited to things that can be literally touched or measured. "Tangible" also has a figurative definition precisely for abstract concepts. From OED: That can be laid hold of or grasped by the mind, or dealt with as a fact; that can be realized or shown to have substance; palpable

Mel's power is something that one can fairly say has shown itself to have substance and be "grasped by the mind."

ETA:

Melisandre's methods are unquestionably evil, her fanaticism clearly misguided, and her powers often more smoke than fire, but it's still clear that she benefits Stannis' cause tremendously. Without the assassination of Renly, Stannis doesn't have a shot at the throne- period. Her aid is not, of course, without its own self-detrimental features. Burning people alienates many of Stannis' most loyal followers, and burning the religious idolatry of Westeros' two major religions alienates both the general population and potential allies. Still, in sum, his chances at the throne are vastly improved with Melisandre's help.

As a character, I love Melisandre. Her 'fake it til you make it' approach is endearing to me, even as it is obviously fated to fail. She bullshits her way through prediction and sorcery, her eye on the prize of convincing Stannis to trust her and do what she wants. She tries to force the hand of prophecy, believing Stannis to be Azor Ahai she glamors up a fake Lightbringer rather than admit that her beach-bonfire ceremony failed to produce the expected results. She's unwavering to the point of absurdity. As wrong as she is, as atrocious her methods are, it's hard not to admire her for that.

I find your views of this quite interesting. I agree that as a character she's quite good-- as a character, and how she operates in the rest of the story. I'm not sure if I find these features as endearing, though.

[bbstark]

I'd rate Mel's power tangible, substantial AND palpable.

That said, I see her as a liability to both Stannis and Jon. Her 'fake it till you make it' method (as mentioned upthread by Onion) is unreliable and potentially destructive, her endgame is tenuous, and her hotness debatable.

I am not a StanStan, but I deem Melisandre unnecessary. Sure, she can charm her way into highly exclusive places, like the Dragonstone War room, the Castle Black's LC's quarters, the Standard Rooftop Bar, LA, on a Saturday night (haha, year right! ok, not that one!), but the results she delivers once she gets there puts her competence in question.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

Keep calm and stay on topic, folks.

[/MOD]

[A Man Has Said]

I'll reiterate, you need to read more carefully. You also might consider consulting a dictionary, as the word 'but' does not mean what you think it means. You've assumed a valued judgment into the word, when no such judgement is entailed or even implied in the word 'but's meaning. Your inability to see that I was singling out Melisandre's determination as the specific feature I admired in her can only be accounted for by a willful or actual inability to understand a clear condemnation of one thing contrasted with praise for another.

Your failure to understand 'She's unwavering to the point of absurdity. As wrong as she is, as atrocious her methods are, it's hard not to admire her for that.' to mean condemnation for one group of qualities opposed to praise for another quality is entirely the result of your failure to follow a plain English sentence.

Again you're forcing a very Melisandre-ish dichotomy on me; my post was not intended to be, and from no reasonable perspective was, purely 'pro' or 'anti' Melisandre or Stannis. I made clear my textured understanding of Melisandre, making points about her utility to Stannis' cause (without making any judgement on the morality of his cause), her use of subterfuge, her deep moral failings, and her determination.

And, I agree, you did misread the intent of my post. Given your shockingly obtuse misunderstanding, I'm not sure if it would be more charitable to believe you did so intentionally or unintentionally.

Obviously I'm at a disadvantage in the realm of interpreting what you might have meant to say. I can only respond to what you've actually written. In politics arguing over what you've already said is called "walking it back." It gets pretty hard to see what you did in fact mean in your first comment, with everything that followed it.

Everyone here should know what the word but means, especially in the context it was used in where I highlighted it.

To me it sounds like the Clintonesque, "It depends on what the meaning of 'is' is."

Basically I agree with you point for point on Melisandre's nature. "Unquestionably evil".. .."clearly misguided fanaticism".. .."alienates many of Stannis' most loyal followers".. .."fake it until you make it," (relies on fraudulent techniques) "bullshits her way through prediction and sorcery".. .."convincing Stannis to trust her" (manipulative)... Then there's the matter of her own self-delusion. Trying to bullshit her way through the fraud of Stannis being Azor Ahai, 'faking it until you make it' she seems to have succumbed to her own fakery.

]She tries to force the hand of prophecy, believing Stannis to be Azor Ahai she glamors up a fake Lightbringer rather than admit that her beach-bonfire ceremony failed to produce the expected results. She's unwavering to the point of absurdity.

True. Even when she looks for Azor Ahai in the flames and sees nothing but Snow time and again - it is absurd that she still clings to believing in her own legerdemain. SHE knows Lightbringer is fake, even better than Aemon did.

BUT (you can ask me to look it up again, but puhh-leease..) in that same post you get,

"..it's still clear that she benefits Stannis' cause tremendously. Without the assassination of Renly, Stannis doesn't have a shot at the throne- period. ...in sum, his chances at the throne are vastly improved with Melisandre's help."

It seems to me that the only point upon which we disagree is that I don't find it at all hard not to admire the witch.