What do other StanStans think about Melisandre?

[redviper9]

I'd rate Mel's power tangible, substantial AND palpable.

That said, I see her as a liability to both Stannis and Jon. Her 'fake it till you make it' method (as mentioned upthread by Onion) is unreliable and potentially destructive, her endgame is tenuous, and her hotness debatable.

I am not a StanStan, but I deem Melisandre unnecessary. Sure, she can charm her way into highly exclusive places, like the Dragonstone War room, the Castle Black's LC's quarters, the Standard Rooftop Bar, LA, on a Saturday night (haha, year right! ok, not that one!), but the results she delivers once she gets there puts her competence in question.

Underestimate the Red Woman's power at your own peril, bb.

Back on topic, I agree with those above that state that Melisandre does indeed have a tangible power that yields results (shadow babies, burning Orell's eagle, glamors, surviving Maester Cressen's assassination attempt). However, my problem with her arises from the dichotomous camps she fits all individuals and indeed the world into -- people/places/things are either entirely good or entirely bad, you're either with me or an agent of the Great Other -- and how she plays fast and loose with her powers and her interpretations of this dichotomous schema. She is so convinced that the world operates in a certain manner that she bends everything to fit that perception (e.g., not admitting that someone other than Stannis might be AAR) or falls back on smoke and mirrors (e.g., the parlor trick with the leeches) to win people to her cause. I think she will ultimately be a detriment to Stannis's cause, such as it is (fight the Others, rally the North to his claim to the Iron Throne).

[A Man Has Said]

I for one won't argue about the tangibility, substance or palpability of Melisandre's powers. She CAN do shit.

It's just that, well, she does a lot of shit that she probably shouldn't do.

[butterbumps!]

snip

The OP's 2 major questions were:

1. Do you think she helps or hinders Stannis?

2. How do Stannis fans feels about Mel?

From what I understood of Oar's first paragraph, he listed points where Mel has hurt Stannis' cause, but concludes, essentially, that without her he'd be nothing. From his second paragraph, he finds her endearing and admirable despite her more appalling characteristics (and sometimes because of them). I don't think he justified any of her actions because they advance Stannis' cause or anything like that-- he's answering a question that was posed about whether she's good for his cause or not.

I happen to agree with the basic assertion that without her he's nothing. She is effective. Like you, I don't find her particular villainies endearing or admirable, but I don't think it's a sign of immorality to do so-- I might not care for Mel much, but I do have a weak spot for Cersei, Roose and Varys, so I'd feel rather hypocritical to take issue with someone for finding charm in Mel.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Obviously I'm at a disadvantage in the realm of interpreting what you might have meant to say. I can only respond to what you've actually written. In politics arguing over what you've already said is called "walking it back." It gets pretty hard to see what you did in fact mean in your first comment, with everything that followed it.

Everyone here should know what the word but means, especially in the context it was used in where I highlighted it.

To me it sounds like the Clintonesque, "It depends on what the meaning of 'is' is."

I think we can both agree that you suffer from clear deficiencies of interpretation. We part ways over your claim that you responded to what I'd 'actually written,' as you assumed an entire argument into my post that I very clearly never made. To wit, you absurdly claim that my use of the word 'but' entails my assertion of the 'goodness' of Stannis' cause. In fact, it very clearly means no such thing. It expresses only, as I plainly stated, that Melisandre's flaws notwithstanding, she is a overall a benefit and not a hindrance to his cause.

Basically I agree with you point for point on Melisandre's nature. "Unquestionably evil".. .."clearly misguided fanaticism".. .."alienates many of Stannis' most loyal followers".. .."fake it until you make it," (relies on fraudulent techniques) "bullshits her way through prediction and sorcery".. .."convincing Stannis to trust her" (manipulative)... Then there's the matter of her own self-delusion. Trying to bullshit her way through the fraud of Stannis being Azor Ahai, 'faking it until you make it' she seems to have succumbed to her own fakery.

True. Even when she looks for Azor Ahai in the flames and sees nothing but Snow time and again - it is absurd that she still clings to believing in her own legerdemain. SHE knows Lightbringer is fake, even better than Aemon did.

I'm glad we can agree on all of this.

BUT (you can ask me to look it up again, but puhh-leease..) in that same post you get,

It seems to me that the only point upon which we disagree is that I don't find it at all hard not to admire the witch.

The cut you've made in quoting my first post here is deeply disingenuous and shows once again that you miss my point, either genuinely or purposely. I am very clearly not saying that I admire Melisandre for what I perceive to be her obvious benefit to Stannis' cause, as a full quote or an honest and intelligent reading would make clear.

As a character, I love Melisandre. Her 'fake it til you make it' approach is endearing to me, even as it is obviously fated to fail. She bullshits her way through prediction and sorcery, her eye on the prize of convincing Stannis to trust her and do what she wants. She tries to force the hand of prophecy, believing Stannis to be Azor Ahai she glamors up a fake Lightbringer rather than admit that her beach-bonfire ceremony failed to produce the expected results. She's unwavering to the point of absurdity. As wrong as she is, as atrocious her methods are, it's hard not to admire her for that.

It is contextually obvious that I am neither praising her for her atrocious methods (as you previously claimed) or for the boon I think she is to Stannis' quest for the throne. I have no problem agreeing to disagree over whether you find anything admirable in Melisandre, that's clearly subjective. But I will take exception to your inability or unwillingess to comprehend and engage with my actual claims.

[A Man Has Said]

The OP's 2 major questions were:

1. Do you think she helps or hinders Stannis?

2. How do Stannis fans feels about Mel?

From what I understood of Oar's first paragraph, he listed points where Mel has hurt Stannis' cause, but concludes, essentially, that without her he'd be nothing. From his second paragraph, he finds her endearing and admirable despite her more appalling characteristics (and sometimes because of them). I don't think he justified any of her actions because they advance Stannis' cause or anything like that-- he's answering a question that was posed about whether she's good for his cause or not.

I happen to agree with the basic assertion that without her he's nothing. She is effective. Like you, I don't find her particular villainies endearing or admirable, but I don't think it's a sign of immorality to do so-- I might not care for Mel much, but I do have a weak spot for Cersei, Roose and Varys, so I'd feel rather hypocritical to take issue with someone for finding charm in Mel.

I would parse that just a tad finer. Without Mel, Stan's bid for the IT is nothing. Stan would probably be a much better man (though not nearly so interesting a character) for it too, IMO. Mel gives Stannis a seemingly (but not really, I don't think) possible path to the pursuit of power, without which he'd probably be forced to abandon his claim. This is not the same as saying that she pushed him onto this path. He WANTED to pursue the throne. She just showed him how he could. I won't lay Stannis' (totally understandable) quest for power at Mel's feet.

Stan is far from being nothing without Mel. This is after all the man who defeated the Iron Fleet at sea during the Greyjoy rebellion, the man who held out during the siege of Storm's End. In some sense I think it's a shame we never got to see what he was like without Mel steering him in directions that he needn't have gone. (*cough*Azor Ahai*cough*)

[Draco_Dracul]

I'd say you're probably right. However, Stannis has so much respect around the realm, at least from powerful/smart people like Tywin, Tyrion, chiefly and Ned, that I think he could have found a way to become a player. Of course, this is all purely speculative, but I feel like you would have figured out a way to become a player.

He was also unwilling to make deals with anyone, even people with whom he shared a common enemy and couldn't even muster swords enough to equal those of Balon Greyjoy.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

couldn't even muster swords enough to equal those of Balon Greyjoy.

Balon was Lord Paramount of the Iron Islands, one of the 9 regions of Westeros and a particularly martial one at that. Stannis was the lord of a few rocks in the Narrow Sea.

[Draco_Dracul]

And that doesn't change the fact that he doesn't have any political allies, and a paltry armed force. Without his Red Witch he would have likely been able to do little more than sit on his rock and sulk. And to be frank, a few rocks pretty much describes the Iron Islands as well.

[DExit]

@ OP: I don't like her though she was usefull. But perhaps without her Stan would be forced to stay his hand for a while, this meaning the end of the Lannisters, Renly replacing Robert and Robb King of trident+ north. Although it looks like he is f*cked in that position, he still would've had around 2500-5000 men and the largest fleet on the east side of westeros, meaning that, as he can't do a succesfull attack, he can't be removed as well.

[Rhaegar's Love]

I like Mel as a character, but not necessarily the actions she takes (which is pretty much par for the course in this series).

She has plenty of flaws but she has a certain fighter spirit that I respect. She did manage to fight her way out of slavery so that speaks volumes about her determination.

As far as her being detrimental or beneficial to Stannis, there is a huge question mark on that. At this point in time, if Stannis were to take the IT, she would definitely be detrimental, as people would see her as an upjumped Targ wannabe (foreign invader, etc.).

That could be very different if she does play a significant role in fighting the Others, whether she actually does contribute or it just seems like she did, or if she is and/or was instrumental in AA being reborn and in guiding him. Then she just might be viewed as one of the saviors of Westeros and she would then be viewed as Stannis' biggest asset.

[tormund's beard]

she is a valuable asset, but i don't like her and don't trust her.

[Arya kiddin']

she is a valuable asset, but i don't like her and don't trust her.

This guy's talking like Stannis. He knows this. :D

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I like Melisandre, she's magical and mysterious :smug:

But she killed my sweet Renly :crying:

So I'm neutral :dunno:

[TheCasualObserver]

I like Melisandre, she's magical and mysterious :smug:

But she killed my sweet Renly :crying:

So I'm neutral :dunno:

Another Renly fan? Where do you all come from?

As Stannis' ally Melisandre has proven to be a game changing asset throughout his campaigns. By the end of ADWD however, and assuming several things (namely that Stannis actually wins the Battle for Winterfell, isn't really AA, Jon survives the stabby stab and Davos returns safe with Rickon) I think we've reached a natural separation point for them. If Mel is going to have some role in Jon's survival then she will need to jump ship on who her flaming sword wielder actually is. Hopefully this will wake Stannis up to the fact that 1. he needs the Northmen and can't keep them as a godswood burner and 2, Mel is not a stable element in a good ruler's councils. The return of Davos is sure to put the Mannis back on the right track.

Melisandre is probably one of the most powerful, dangerous and interesting characters GRRM has thus far invented, but she's poison to a peaceful and happy Kingdom.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

And that doesn't change the fact that he doesn't have any political allies, and a paltry armed force. Without his Red Witch he would have likely been able to do little more than sit on his rock and sulk. And to be frank, a few rocks pretty much describes the Iron Islands as well.

The Iron Islands are significantly larger than the islands ruled by Stannis.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

I'm personally rather ambivalent on Mel. She's obviously been the impetus behind many of Stannis' more morally questionable decisions, is a zealot and generally is kind of all around creepy. But it's hard to deny that at least in ACoK she was pretty much responsible for keeping Stannis afloat, though I'd also argue that if Stannis wins Winterfell, he likely won't need her anymore. I also think that while her methods are evil, I'm not so sure her intentions are - I got the impression in her POV in ADWD that she was actually more benevolent than I would have expected, albeit pretty much completely nuts. So yeah, when it comes to the whole "angel vs. devil" conflict on Stannis' soldier, I'm Team Davos all the way, but there are also a lot of characters I dislike a lot more than Mel.

Also for what its worth, Carice van Houten is pretty damn hot.

[Lord Nightstalker]

GRRM in an interview has said that Mel and Varys are the most misunderstood characters in Westeros. Why do you think he calls Mel 'misunderstood'?

[Blueberry Stark]

GRRM in an interview has said that Mel and Varys are the most misunderstood characters in Westeros. Why do you think he calls Mel 'misunderstood'?

IMO, she's probably not as evil ad people assume.

[tormund's beard]

This guy's talking like Stannis. He knows this. :D

im not worthy of the honor.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

GRRM in an interview has said that Mel and Varys are the most misunderstood characters in Westeros. Why do you think he calls Mel 'misunderstood'?

I think he means both of them think they're doing the right thing so they would be surprised that some think they are evil and trying to do harm. Actually, there are a lot of similarities between Varys and Melisandre.