Breaking Bad's Final Season: Look upon my works ye mighty and despair

[Wise Fool]

Ugh. Give me a beak. Skylar didn't do anything wrong by having an affair with Ted.

Well, if you don't think adultery is a wrong thing, sure.

Do you think she confessed that part of the story to Walt Jr? If not, why not?

[Winterfella]

I wonder what Lydia's role will be in these last two eps.

Walt will need Lydia to find out where the Nazi's headquarters is, won't he? He usually meets with them in a motel or something.

My theory is that he will tell her he used the ricin on her (and we may even think he slips it into her tea), but that will be enough punishment for her to think she's going to die, while he actually saves it for himself.

[JungWheats]

I feel sympathy for everyone involved in the White household, but I'm not ready to give Skyler a free pass. She voiced moral objection many times, but at the end of the day, she freely chose to launder the money and to help hide the crime. When she signed the forms for Ted and helped him commit fraud, she really had a close call and it should have been clear to her then...don't commit crimes with a paper trail like that. She did it anyway, as soon as Walter asked her. She didn't mind spending the money. She didn't mind hiding the money.

She says that she is against all of these things, but meanwhile she freely went along with it all. That's basically the only thing I have to say.

She was pulled into a bad situation, and aside from getting the kids away, she did nothing to put a stop to it. She committed just as many crimes as Walter, and just because she committed those crimes on paper instead of in the streets, that doesn't make it better.

Some of the worst damage can be done with the type of white-collar crime that Skyler was involved in. She didn't steal any pensions or anything but its the same sort of crime.

Plus, to my knowledge, Walter never killed anyone "innocent." Just other criminals that have accepted danger to life and limb by their actions, this includes Jane the HEROIN ADDICT. Even Brock...Walter would have known how much would make him sick and how much would kill him.

I'm not giving Walt a free pass; but I do think that lots of the shit he gets laid at his feet are not exactly his fault.

[Wise Fool]

Plus, to my knowledge, Walter never killed anyone "innocent." Just other criminals that have accepted danger to life and limb by their actions, this includes Jane the HEROIN ADDICT.

Heroin addiction: a crime punishable by death! IN CAPITAL LETTERS IN CASE ANYONE MISSED HOW GUILTY THIS SIN MAKES YOU!

[JungWheats]

I strongly support drug use; I don't think there are any reasons why any sort of drug use is morally "wrong." I just think that if you die on heroin thats nobody's fault but yours. You know whats up with heroin...I said that Walt never killed anyone who didn't bring it on themselves.

I never said that Jane was an evil person who deserved to die, all I said was that Jane brought it on herself by her own actions. If I died of a heroin overdose, no matter how I ended up on my back, its MY FAULT. Nobody in America doesn't know that heroin is death in an injection.

I mean...her plan not to die was lay on your side and hope for the best. She knew that each injection was a toss up. That's her problem.

[Wise Fool]

Even if your death was caused by another person but you just were on heroin at the time, it's still your fault?

[JungWheats]

Walt didn't kill her, though. Heroin killed her.

For me to think its murder, I'd need her to be at home, sleeping peacefully without heroin, then Walter sneaks in, packs up a nice big syringe and then blasts it into her arm.

I'll call that murder.

If she had had no heroin in her system, laying on her back wouldn't have been a problem.

So because she was on heroin, Walter had to be extra careful, ever mindful of how she was laying, even though she was blackmailing him and threatening to destroy the lives of Jesse and everyone Walter cares about.

At best, its a very murky situation. I just don't think Walter would ever be convicted for "murder" in the Jane situation. That's not really a right or wrong answer, but you couldn't even take this situation to court. You'd never get any sort of outcome, a judge would probably throw it out.

Being passed out on heroin, she could have ended up on her back in a whole lot of ways, and sooner or later she was going to overdose and she was going to die. Drug addiction is a condition, its a sickness, its a disease that you're stuck with forever. You don't really beat drug addiction, even if you never relapse you are still controlled by your addiction forever.

You live a shitty half-life, without control over your own heart and mind until you waste away or overdose. I have a friend named Ethan who's not going to be around for much longer because he has a heroin problem. He was clean for a year or so, but he was never "free" of his addiction, a drug he didn't even touch still controlled his life.

He's relapsed now and one day soon, I'm sure that I'll get a call saying he's overdosed. We've all tried to help him, we all still love the guy, he's always welcome at my house, i'll feed him if he's hungry and shit, but if tomorrow he's dead and its related to heroin, in any way, I'm gonna probably say it was his fault.

There's nothing about his life or condition now, that is not directly related to his addiction. I do want to say, though, that i feel bad for Jane, it sucks that she was an addict, it sucks that that was how she had to live, it sucks for Jesse because he really loved her, and she was taken away. However, lots of addicts just "think" that they love each other. Lots of addicts move in pairs like that, they become a little junkie team unit, and they come to have a strong attachment to one another. But is this a real connection, or has the love of the drug and the good feelings it induces, tricked the brain into their feelings? Do two heroin junkies who only do heroin together and sleep all day really have a strong, loving, relationship? Or are they just two lost souls who have similar interests?

If she hadn't died, then Jesse would be a heroin junkie. Jesse getting off of hard drugs is directly related to Walter letting Jane die. Had she lived and they disappeared together, would Jesse even be alive now?

Can killing one person be a way to save others? I know that Walter didn't allow her to pass because he was concerned about Jesse's well-being, only, but that is definitely one of the factors at play here.

Its a murky situation, and I just couldn't be on a jury and call this murder, which I believe has an element of foresight and planning attached to it. Manslaughter...I'd have to look up an exact definition, but this is probably a lot closer to what happened. Manslaughter, however, does kind of connotate that it was accidental and we can certainly say that what happened was not an accident, but I don't think you get to 100% say Walter is evil for letting her die.

There are a lot of angles, which I think is part of the point with Breaking Bad. VG wants to draw a distinction between Mr. Chips and Scarface, but I think the real success is that Walter isn't totally Heisenberg, but he's no longer really plain ol' Mr. White, either.

I guess, my overall argument, is simply that Jane is not blameless here. Both of them are guilty to an extent, and both are responsible for what has happened to them.

[Independent George]

Oh dear God not this again!

[WTFSalami]

I can't believe anyone would say that Walt killed Jane.

[Morpheus]

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

[Wise Fool]

Walt didn't kill her, though. Heroin killed her.

For me to think its murder, I'd need her to be at home, sleeping peacefully without heroin, then Walter sneaks in, packs up a nice big syringe and then blasts it into her arm.

I'll call that murder.

If she had had no heroin in her system, laying on her back wouldn't have been a problem.

So because she was on heroin, Walter had to be extra careful, ever mindful of how she was laying, even though she was blackmailing him and threatening to destroy the lives of Jesse and everyone Walter cares about.

Okay, let's go with the "cause and effect" route. Why was she on heroin? She was living clean. It was only when Jesse showed up with his tons of money and charm and drugs that she relapsed at all. And why would Jesse have tons of money and be showing up there? Because he got into business with Walt. Ergo, Walt killed her because he set in course all of these events.

But this cause and effect thing is kind of ridiculous, because if you apply that to other crimes you get results like "Well, the victim only got mugged because he had to go buy milk because his cat drank it all. If the cat hadn't drank the milk, he wouldn't have been in that place at that time to get mugged, ergo the cat's partly to blame."

You have to look at who's responsible for what criminal acts, and as it turns out, deliberately avoiding saving someone's life, when it is in your power to do so, IS a criminal act. ESPECIALLY if the reason you're doing so is because of some complicated blackmail-revenge motive.

At best, its a very murky situation. I just don't think Walter would ever be convicted for "murder" in the Jane situation. That's not really a right or wrong answer, but you couldn't even take this situation to court. You'd never get any sort of outcome, a judge would probably throw it out.

Well, yeah, because there was no evidence and the only witness is the defendant. But if the courts knew what we the viewers know really happened, Walt would be convicted. Probably not first degree murder, but one of the lesser varieties.

Being passed out on heroin, she could have ended up on her back in a whole lot of ways, and sooner or later she was going to overdose and she was going to die. Drug addiction is a condition, its a sickness, its a disease that you're stuck with forever. You don't really beat drug addiction, even if you never relapse you are still controlled by your addiction forever.

You live a shitty half-life, without control over your own heart and mind until you waste away or overdose. I have a friend named Ethan who's not going to be around for much longer because he has a heroin problem. He was clean for a year or so, but he was never "free" of his addiction, a drug he didn't even touch still controlled his life.

He's relapsed now and one day soon, I'm sure that I'll get a call saying he's overdosed. We've all tried to help him, we all still love the guy, he's always welcome at my house, i'll feed him if he's hungry and shit, but if tomorrow he's dead and its related to heroin, in any way, I'm gonna probably say it was his fault.

There's nothing about his life or condition now, that is not directly related to his addiction.

Being a drug addict is not really anyone's "fault." As you said, it's a sickness.

The fact that Jane was blackmailing Walt is a much more incriminating thing, something that paints her character more effectively in a negative light (though still not justifying death)... and yet so many of the arguments against Jane treat her heroin addiction or use as more, or even just as, bad as that. You didn't even mention it in your original comment, focusing entirely on her being a "HEROIN ADDICT."

To me this suggests something deeper about our society and how we view drug use versus drug trafficking. The criminalization of drug use only serves to further stigmatize users (drug users do not care if they are stigmatized), and does nothing to curb the damage and corruption caused by the illicit trade and manufacturing.

[Roose Seal]

I'm saving this video on my phone so I can pull it out when someone starts to talk to me about how Skyler is a bitch and how Walt isn't that bad a guy.

[JungWheats]

Sorry for expressing a contrary opinion or whatev. Just putting in my response onto a topic someone else had started up. Didn't mean to get caught in your rounds on the douche patrol.

To me this suggests something deeper about our society and how we view drug use versus drug trafficking. The criminalization of drug use only serves to further stigmatize users (drug users do not care if they are stigmatized), and does nothing to curb the damage and corruption caused by the illicit trade and manufacturing.

I'll say its bullshit that addicts get the bad wrap, and even though its not coming across, I really think that addiction should be how a lot of money to fight drugs is spent. Addiction is a horrible thing to live with, and lots of times its a brain-structure problem that leads to it. Certain chemical receptors may be genetically more active in certain people, and you may be predisposed to addiction--this is quite common with alcohol addiction.

I think that really, drugs should all be legalized so that the state has more room to work with those plagued by addiction. You can't help anyone by allowing the legal circumstances that prey on addiction. Prohibition creates the crime and ups the ante on suppliers. If you could buy a controlled substance, then there are no cartels willing to kill over the profits because there's now a much cheaper, legal, controlled market.

I guess, what I mean by HEROIN ADDICT is that its not like smoking weed. Smoking weed is essentially harmless, and in some studies has demonstrated positive effects. Everyone everywhere knows that heroin is deadly, highly addictive, etc. yet still made the initial choice to put heroin into themselves. At the end of the day, you can't be surprised when any sort of heroin user becomes someone who died from heroin use.

Death is part of the package with heroin. Playing with fire leads to being burnt, after all. When you first shoot up heroin, you're essentially saying that you don't care whether you live or die, because you know that any shot could kill you. You know that before you've ever touched the stuff.

aying "I guess as someone who supports drug use, I realize that you have to use a lot of good judgement, and properly weigh all the outcomes. I totally think you should be able to buy heroin at the store, but I'd also totally say you probably shouldn't. Heroin is just a dangerous thing to put into yourself.

So maybe I'll boil down my statement into simply: "heroin bad." I'll probably give you that Walt murdered Jane, but I'm still going to say that Jane is not blameless. Playing with fire and all.

[The Monkey]

Sorry for expressing a contrary opinion or whatev. Just putting in my response onto a topic someone else had started up. Didn't mean to get caught in your rounds on the douche patrol.

Sorry if I offended you, love, it's just that this topic has been up for discussion once too often.

[JungWheats]

Sorry if I offended you, love, it's just that this topic has been up for discussion once too often.

My bad on the douche patrol. I don't really know how the Skyler thing turned into the Jane thing.

Props to Breaking Bad for not being the straight-forward, tell-you-how-to-feel show.

[ninjastark]

Also, if he went on the run, I doubt he'd get caught. First of all, he's a professional. I'd say he's done that kind of stuff before. Second, he knows Saul, who knows a guy, who knows another guy. Judging from the last few episodes, it worked for Walt, who turned into M60-wielding-Walt. So, why couldn't it work for Mike?

Thanks for making my point for me.Walt used the vacuum guy and yet he comes back......so what would stop mike from coming back somewhere down the road.This is the mistake the WS have made with Walt....they should have killed him out in that desert;you don't take a man's money and not expect some kind of retaliation.

[TrackerNeil]

Please explain this one.

Let's see...Hank cares about his wife and family, helps out whenever needed, and risks his life to stop deranged psychopaths like Tuco Salamanca and his cousins. That work?

[JungWheats]

He also has no problem breaking the law whenever it helps him make a case. Or to get his wife out of trouble.

[Lord Flashheart]

This has been done to death, but ask yourself this. Would Jane have died that day if Walt hadn't pushed her to her back? If the answer is no then Walt killed her. It has nothing to do with that fact that drug addicts are already in the business of killing themselves.

[Wise Fool]

I'll say its bullshit that addicts get the bad wrap, and even though its not coming across, I really think that addiction should be how a lot of money to fight drugs is spent. Addiction is a horrible thing to live with, and lots of times its a brain-structure problem that leads to it. Certain chemical receptors may be genetically more active in certain people, and you may be predisposed to addiction--this is quite common with alcohol addiction.

I think that really, drugs should all be legalized so that the state has more room to work with those plagued by addiction. You can't help anyone by allowing the legal circumstances that prey on addiction. Prohibition creates the crime and ups the ante on suppliers. If you could buy a controlled substance, then there are no cartels willing to kill over the profits because there's now a much cheaper, legal, controlled market.

I guess I agree, even though really I think most recreational substances, if used properly, turn people into obnoxious imbeciles. That's a small price to pay however, for a world where there are no Walter Whites (except in chemistry class)...

Of course one could argue that if drugs were not a lucrative black market industry, then prostitution. I wonder if Walt would have broke bad becoming a pimp? Probably not, but it sounds like a hilarious show... then again, sounds utterly horrible. "Say my name" and all that. Best not to dwell on it.

I guess, what I mean by HEROIN ADDICT is that its not like smoking weed. Smoking weed is essentially harmless, and in some studies has demonstrated positive effects. Everyone everywhere knows that heroin is deadly, highly addictive, etc. yet still made the initial choice to put heroin into themselves.

True, but that amounts to one mistake - one poor choice. Then it's sort of like you're on automatic pilot, like you're possessed and don't even quite know it. The thing is, most addicts at times THINK they're making a choice to do it, again and again, but I'm not so sure they are. By the time it gets obvious that it's not pleasurable, but they're still "choosing" to do it, then they might realize they've gotten to be addicts, that they haven't really been making decisions for quite some time.

I guess I just have a hard time condemning addicts for being drug addicts, the way Jane's father did.

Addiction is like marriage. At first it seems like fun and celebration, good times, and that you can always divorce if things got as bad as everyone always says it is... but then suddenly twenty years have gone by, you have kids, credit card debt, second mortgage, mounting medical expenses, and you hate everything about your life but you can't just opt-out by then. Not even death. Who'll pay for Junior's college?

Anyway, I'm totally done talking about Jane now. For real this time.