Breaking Bad's Final Season: Look upon my works ye mighty and despair

[7V3N]

Thanks for making my point for me.Walt used the vacuum guy and yet he comes back......so what would stop mike from coming back somewhere down the road.This is the mistake the WS have made with Walt....they should have killed him out in that desert;you don't take a man's money and not expect some kind of retaliation.

The problem is, they were Walt's muscle. He used them for prison, Lydia used them for the skinheads, and Walt was using them for Jesse. The way they saw it, he had nobody and they had the meth empire AND its very large profit. They should have killed him, but I can definitely accept them thinking Walt couldn't touch them.

[Bridgeburners]

Walt didn't kill her, though. Heroin killed her.

For me to think its murder, I'd need her to be at home, sleeping peacefully without heroin, then Walter sneaks in, packs up a nice big syringe and then blasts it into her arm.

I'll call that murder.

If she had had no heroin in her system, laying on her back wouldn't have been a problem.

So because she was on heroin, Walter had to be extra careful, ever mindful of how she was laying, even though she was blackmailing him and threatening to destroy the lives of Jesse and everyone Walter cares about.

At best, its a very murky situation. I just don't think Walter would ever be convicted for "murder" in the Jane situation. That's not really a right or wrong answer, but you couldn't even take this situation to court. You'd never get any sort of outcome, a judge would probably throw it out.

Being passed out on heroin, she could have ended up on her back in a whole lot of ways, and sooner or later she was going to overdose and she was going to die. Drug addiction is a condition, its a sickness, its a disease that you're stuck with forever. You don't really beat drug addiction, even if you never relapse you are still controlled by your addiction forever.

Okay, let me use an analogy, and you tell me if you think the subject involved is a murderer.

Let's say I go skydiving (an activity with which, like heroin use, I'm accepting a certain mortality rate). You're in the plane handing out the parachute knapsacks to us before we jump. Now, when I'm up, you accidentally hand me the supplies knapsack. However, you realize this mistake a good 20 seconds before I actually jump. However, you recall that I'm supposed to be a witness in an upcoming murder trial for your cousin, and I basically have the story that makes the case against him. With that in mind, you decide not to correct this mistake and allow me to jump with the supplies instead of the parachute. Are you a murderer in this case?

The link here is that your handing me the supplies bag is analogous to Walter shaking Jane off Jesse, on her back. That was the "killing move", but he didn't do it intentionally, just like you didn't intentionally hand me the wrong bag. But once you and Walter realized the upcoming (and easily rectifiable) consequence of your mistake, you decided not to fix it because you decided that letting us die fixes your problem.

In our new case, you could make the rationalization that plenty of people die skydiving, and if it wasn't from this one particular incident, it would be something in the future, because I'm accepting the risk. Well I call total bullshit on that. It doesn't matter if we're risking death by natural occurrence, our death is a direct result of an accidental move that you did, that you were consciously aware you could have easily fixed, but chose not to. I say that's murder, hands down.

[Bronn Stone]

Jane didn't die because she was an addict. She died because she tried to blackmail a drug dealer.

Maybe I have watched too much of The Wire, but if you in the game, you in the game.

Murder is wrong. But murder of co-conspirators in a meth empire isn't on the order of evil as taking out civilians. And Jane crossed over from civilian to player when she started blackmailing Walter.

I can't find a legal video of that death,

We do know this.

• Earlier versions of the script made Walt more directly responsible for Jane's death. In the original story Walt injects Jane with another hit of heroin while she's unconscious, murdering her. This was toned down to a version where he intentionally turns her on her back so she chokes to death on vomit. In the filmed version, Walt accidentally turns her while attempting to awake Jesse. She falls on her back accidentally and he chooses not to help her when she begins suffocating.
  
  

It was too early for Walter to actively kill someone. That would come later. Jane's death was not volitional. It was a sin of omission.

I am of the opinion that Walt's worst crime was the giving the LotV to Brock - an innocent. Even though he knew the proper dose to be non-lethal. Brock was not a part of 'the game'.

[Bridgeburners]

Jane didn't die because she was an addict. She died because she tried to blackmail a drug dealer.

Maybe I have watched too much of The Wire, but if you in the game, you in the game.

Murder is wrong. But murder of co-conspirators in a meth empire isn't on the order of evil as taking out civilians. And Jane crossed over from civilian to player when she started blackmailing Walter.

I can't find a legal video of that death,

We do know this.

• Earlier versions of the script made Walt more directly responsible for Jane's death. In the original story Walt injects Jane with another hit of heroin while she's unconscious, murdering her. This was toned down to a version where he intentionally turns her on her back so she chokes to death on vomit. In the filmed version, Walt accidentally turns her while attempting to awake Jesse. She falls on her back accidentally and he chooses not to help her when she begins suffocating.
  
  

It was too early for Walter to actively kill someone. That would come later. Jane's death was not volitional. It was a sin of omission.

I am of the opinion that Walt's worst crime was the giving the LotV to Brock - an innocent. Even though he knew the proper dose to be non-lethal. Brock was not a part of 'the game'.

Sorry, that's just a bullshit rationalization in order for us to convince ourselves that Omar is a good guy. He's not. :P

Poisoning Brock was the most shocking thing Walter did. But if I had to name the worst, I'd say it was the ten witnesses, hands down.

[Bronn Stone]

That is a craptastic straw man argument.

Never said Omar was a good guy. No one said Walt was a good guy. In fact, specifically, I said Walt was not. Just on a different order of evil. Read. It is good for you if you want to avoid looking like a total idiot.

But I don't lose sleep over bad acts taken by bad people against other bad people.

[Jabronius Maximus]

RE Jane, all it boils down to is the fact that WALT CHOSE NOT TO SAVE HER. You can argue all day whether that makes him responsible for her death, but he chose the evil action in the given scenario. His very first instinct was to save her, as you could see the genuine concern in his eyes as he reached out. But after doing a bit of mental math he willingly backed off. And major props to Bryan Cranston for portraying all that convincingly without saying a word (and no Dexter voiceover was needed!).

I think we're all looking at it far too deeply, when the point of the scene was to show another big step in Walt's descent. Sure he may not have killed her, but he definitely didn't save her when he could have (as was said quite well by Bronn Stone).

[KalibakCruel]

Yeah I think despite what you think of Walt murdering or NOT murdering Jane, we can universally agree that what he did WAS in fact, bad and evil, and that it was another step in him getting worse.

[ninjastark]

Question....what do you call it when cops sit idly by and watch gang members murder each other?I don't hear anyone saying its the cops fault ,all i hear is well they all gangsters so let them wipe each other out.

[Mark Antony]

:lol:

[Garlan Marius]

Had Walt not flipped Jane onto her back, she would not have choked on vomit.

[DaveSumm]

I wonder how opinions would fall if Jane had a disability that meant she choked if she slept in her back. Let's not pretend Walt rationalised it in his head because she was a drug user, her death benefited him (and Jesse, I believe Walt believed). A person in the middle of a crime is not suddenly exempted from protection from the law for crimes committed against them. One should not need to research whether or not the choking person in front of you is doing so as a result of a crime or not.

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte]

Jane was basically Jessie's death substitute when Gilligan decided not to kill him in S1

[Littlefingers In The Air]

I must be a terrible person for not being willing to assign the blame for the plane crash to Walt.

[Isalie]

I must be a terrible person for not being willing to assign the blame for the plane crash to Walt.

No, just obstinate in refusing to accept the intent of the writers ;)

[7V3N]

I must be a terrible person for not being willing to assign the blame for the plane crash to Walt.

I agree somewhat (with the sarcasm). The plan crash was never Walt's fault--it was a result of his actions, but never in a million years could he have predicted such consequences. Instead, I thought it showed how Walt never realized how far his evil could go; he never expected that killing someone could result in such horror. I definitely don't consider it Walt's worst, but definitely his most damaging. Suddenly, where he formerly justified letting Jane die by saying things like "she's a junky blackmailer and is bad for Jesse," he was now stuck with no justification because her death came with so many innocents.

So rather than the plane crash representing Walt's evil, it was his guilt. We saw it carry over for a long time and slowly he began to forgive himself for it. It was showing us how Walt can brush off his guilt to satisfy his huge ego, claiming he is always making the best choices (choice he stands by). So, I don't think the plane crash was ever there for us to blame Walt, but rather so we can see how he deals with guilt over so many innocents' deaths.

[7V3N]

I feel like the plane crash and the events that led up to it were intended as an example of how any form of negative energy you put into the world can affect other people's lives negatively in a big way. I absolutely blame Walt for the plane crash. He SHOULD also blame himself. The whole chain of events is just terribly sad.

Yes and no. I don't think directly. Yes, Walt is responsible. But at the same time, the plan crash could never have been accounted for. So I still don't think we can blame Walt completely. Similar to how you blame someone who committed manslaughter: you blame them, but you understand that it wasn't intentional.

On another note, great video of Inside Ozy: http://www.amctv.com/breaking-bad/videos/spoilers-inside-episode-514-breaking-bad-ozymandias

[Bronn Stone]

No, just obstinate in refusing to accept the intent of the writers ;)

You are the one guilty of that. The writers made their intention clear when they changed the original script from Walt first injecting Jane then secondly to Walt turning Jane to finally Walt setting off a chain of events that leads Jane to turn.

[Angalin]

Wrapping up this one for length.