bpsae325 Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I was rereading aSoS and I stumbled upon something that didn't make sense to me. When Tyrion demands a trial by combat, why does his champion face Ser Gregor? Tyrion was accused of murdering the King, and he was accused by the Queen Regent, therefore, their champion should have been a member of the KG. So why were they allowed to choose the Mountain, and why didn't Tyrion catch that? As we know from aFfC and aDwD, the King/Queen has to be represented by a member of the KG in a trial by combat.Can anyone explain this? I have a crackpot theory of my own but I'm curious if anyone else knows why this happened, which would render my theory moot.My theory is that eventually Tyrion will argue that he either won the trial, as Prince Oberyn mortally wounded Gregor, if that doesn't work, he can claim that the trial was invalid because the Crown's champion was not a member of the KG.Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyrionsFlagon Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Wow, really good point. I didn't catch that at all. I'm definitely going to follow this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pero the first of His name Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I was rereading aSoS and I stumbled upon something that didn't make sense to me. When Tyrion demands a trial by combat, why does his champion face Ser Gregor? Tyrion was accused of murdering the King, and he was accused by the Queen Regent, therefore, their champion should have been a member of the KG. So why were they allowed to choose the Mountain, and why didn't Tyrion catch that? As we know from aFfC and aDwD, the King/Queen has to be represented by a member of the KG in a trial by combat.Can anyone explain this? I have a crackpot theory of my own but I'm curious if anyone else knows why this happened, which would render my theory moot.My theory is that eventually Tyrion will argue that he either won the trial, as Prince Oberyn mortally wounded Gregor, if that doesn't work, he can claim that the trial was invalid because the Crown's champion was not a member of the KG.Thoughts?What was said exatly about that law in afc/adwd? I can not remember.Also, it was more like Kingdom vs. Tyrion, rather than a king or queen with some personal issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Jakkor Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I think it's because Cersei is the accuser, and at the moment she might not be considered Queen? Margaery would be Queen (though she wasn't bedded, and has Tommen been crowned yet?). In AFFC/ADWD her and Margaery are both considered Queens at the moment and thus have to be represented by the King's Guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beorn Snow Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 The honor of the queen must be defended by the Kings guard... Maybe not her accusations.But, aye, it sounds like a point Tyrion could make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dornishman's Wife Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I think it's because Cersei is the accuserThis. If the Queen is in need of defending, the KG needs to step up. If the Queen (or the crown, or whoever) is doing some accusing, they can chose anyone as their champion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpsae325 Posted September 20, 2013 Author Share Posted September 20, 2013 The law I was referring to was mentioned by Jaime in aCoK when he was telling Lady Stark about Lord Rickard and Brandon Starks death. He said that Lord Rickard demanded a trial by combat and put on his armor to face a member of the KG, perhaps Jaime. Later, in aFfC, when Cersei is talking to the High Septon, they discuss the law where when the King or Queen are involved in a trial by combat, their champion must be a member of the KG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 The only time when the Queen has to be represented by a KG member in a trial by combat is when she is the one accused and her honor has to be defended. That wasn't the case here.ETA: Quotes showing it:“what if Margaery demands that her guilt or innocence be determined by wager of battle?” A smile brushed Cersei’s lips. “As queen, her honor must be defended by a knight of the Kingsguard. Why, every child in Westeros knows how Prince Aemon the Dragonknight championed his sister Queen Naerys against Ser Morghil’s accusations.“When the queen’s honor is at issue, law and custom require that her champion be one of the king’s sworn seven. The High Septon will insist, I fear.”I am the queen, Qyburn. My honor can only be defended by a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpsae325 Posted September 20, 2013 Author Share Posted September 20, 2013 This. If the Queen is in need of defending, the KG needs to step up. If the Queen (or the crown, or whoever) is doing some accusing, they can chose anyone as their champion.When Rickard and Brandon Stark are accused, they are accused by the Crown (Aerys II) and Lord Rickard was preparing to face a member of the KG. We know that didn't work out because Aerys was mad, but I read that as the law states that the KG must stand in for the Crown in a trial by combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 When Rickard and Brandon Stark are accused, they are accused by the Crown (Aerys II) and Lord Rickard was preparing to face a member of the KG. We know that didn't work out because Aerys was mad, but I read that as the law states that the KG must stand in for the Crown in a trial by combat. Not necessary. The KG are supposed to be the best fighters (and that was true back then) and the most dedicated to the king after all, it's only natural to expect the king would choose one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dornish Whine Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I agree that the King's Guard is there to defend the royal family, not to exact their vengeance. There would be an interesting conflict of interest when one member of the royal family is accusing another... would two King's Guard have to fight each other? But that is sort of beside the point. Given the circumstance if Cersei/Tywin want to use their most dangerous bannerman to exact their vengeance on Tyrion, I don't think anyone is going to try to stop them. I also don't really see this 'legal technicality' holding up as a means for Tyrion to clear his name. Tyrion's only hope now is blood and fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpsae325 Posted September 20, 2013 Author Share Posted September 20, 2013 I completely agree that his only hope is fire and blood, but I was thinking more on the line of how the maesters will justify it, similar to how they accepted Robert as king due to the blood ties between Baratheons and Targs, when everyone knew his claim was his warhammer. The way I read the law, from the chapters it was mentioned, led me to believe that a member of the KG must stand for the accusing or accused Royal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djinn Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Why didn't Tyrion named fire as his champion? Even Gregor burns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Could Tyrion had named Jaime as his champion?? He is a part of the royal family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Witch King of Braavos Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Why didn't Tyrion named fire as his champion? Even Gregor burns. That would be ironic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Could Tyrion had named Jaime as his champion?? He is a part of the royal family.Tyrion isn't part of the Royal Family, as he isn't a Baratheon.Moreover, neither Cersei or Tywin would have allowed that thus they could just order Jaime to refuse. Moreover, I doubt that accused kingslayer can ask for the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard to defend him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpsae325 Posted September 20, 2013 Author Share Posted September 20, 2013 The Kingslayer defending the accused kingslayer, classic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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