Daenerys - red herring?

[The Idiots Lantern]

I don't buy the "too literal" stuff. It's not an argument that rings true to me.

I don't really care whether Dany is or isn't AA. Either way works if handled properly.

What I care about is whether or not the ultimate accomplishment of her storyline will be about how she empowered Jon Snow to take over his rightful kingdom before she died.

If she's gone through all this crap just to end up giving someone else all her best stuff and playing support to a super-special Chosen One.....

Well, GRRM's not what I thought he was.

[Welease Woger]

I believe GRRM has said somewhere that the three heads don't have to be all Targs

Could be a Blackfyre. Red or Black, a dragon is still a dragon. ^_^

Depends on when you consider her birth. If you mean Dany's literal birth, then people say that the salt and smoke come from her being born on Dragonstone during a storm. If you mean her metaphorical rebirth, then it comes from Drogo's funeral pyre (smoke) and Mirri Maz Duur's tears (salt). Or some combo of the two.

More crackpot: What if Daenerys is already dead indeed? She could have died in that bonfire, but brought back to life through some kind of magic? Maybe it'll be revealed later that she's been UnDany this whole time.

[Bolivar]

I think she'll be incredibly important to the ending and the lives of the other main characters, but not in the way the story promises and readers expect.

Personally, I think she'll be the villain. The whole story so far is her going from place to place doing really horrible things to people.

[Bael's Bastard]

Could be a Blackfyre. Red or Black, a dragon is still a dragon. ^_^

A Blackfyre would still be a Targaryen. They are not called Blackfyre because they are not Targaryens (they are), but for political reasons. It would be pretty ridiculous if his comment about three heads not having to be Targaryens was just referring to a superficial difference in names.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You can believe that Dany is a red herring while also believing she has a major role to play in the story. The idea that she is AA or a nobody is a false choice and not one I've ever seen anyone argue.

I think Dany is incredibly important, just not in the sense that she's a hero or a force for good. I think she's either outright NOT AA or, if she is, the prophecy will be subverted by AA being an antagonist (the Bumps school of thought).

As for what "can" and "can't" be the case, the only person who has any insight of value there is the author.

[Bael's Bastard]

I doubt any single character is going to be "the super hero" that fixes things. I think it is going to take more than one or two or even three people to gets humans out of whatever they are facing. And I am sure they will all be sufficiently soiled in one way or another when all is said and done.

[Katerine459]

You can believe that Dany is a red herring while also believing she has a major role to play in the story. The idea that she is AA or a nobody is a false choice and not one I've ever seen anyone argue.

I think Dany is incredibly important, just not in the sense that she's a hero or a force for good. I think she's either outright NOT AA or, if she is, the prophecy will be subverted by AA being an antagonist (the Bumps school of thought).

As for what "can" and "can't" be the case, the only person who has any insight of value there is the author.

A red herring truly can't be a story that was standalone for two whole books before it even started to intertwine with the other stories. Or risk the readers' wrath. :) It betrays the faith of the reader, the implicit agreement that all the interruptions to read this entirely separate story, will totally be worth it, in the end.

As for this strange assumption that Dany must be the antagonist... all that's required of a hero, in the beginning, is that they have a heart. Dany definitely fit that requirement. The rest is the hero's journey towards being a hero... which typically (especially in really, really long stories like this) include a lot of mistakes, before they finally find their footing at the end. Making mistakes does not discount her from being a hero. Quite the opposite, in fact... it's far more likely that GRRM is writing a hero's journey.

Ned Stark was a hero. He's dead now. GRRM doesn't seem too interested in writing about people who are already full-fledged heroes.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

A red herring truly can't be a story that was standalone for two whole books before it even started to intertwine with the other stories. Or risk the readers' wrath. :) It betrays the faith of the reader, the implicit agreement that reading this totally separate story will totally be worth it, in the end.

Like I said , the only person who can say what is or isn't possible in the story is the author. Not you, not me, not anyone but him.

Reading Dany's story is still "worth it" even if she's a red herring, because, as I already said, she would still have a role to play. It would only not be worth it to someone who was 100% invested in her being the hero to the exclusion of all else. And at the risk of coming off as harsh, that's kind of a "tough shit" situation.

[Katerine459]

Like I said , the only person who can say what is or isn't possible in the story is the author. Not you, not me, not anyone but him.

Reading Dany's story is still "worth it" even if she's a red herring, because, as I already said, she would still have a role to play. It would only not be worth it to someone who was 100% invested in her being the hero to the exclusion of all else. And at the risk of coming off as harsh, that's kind of a "tough shit" situation.

I didn't explain the full context of my statement. My bad. :|

All I meant was this: no, it's not entirely up to the author. For example, if GRRM were to make us read all those Dany chapters, only to, say, have her only impact on the main story be to give her dragons to somebody else before dying, that would be a betrayal to the reader. Because then her entire story would not be worth it - GRRM could have accomplished the same thing just by having the dragons appear out of nowhere at the end.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I didn't explain the full context of my statement. My bad. :|

All I meant was this: no, it's not entirely up to the author. For example, if GRRM were to make us read all those Dany chapters, only to, say, have her only impact on the main story be to give her dragons to somebody else before dying, that would be a betrayal to the reader. Because then her entire story would not be worth it - GRRM could have accomplished the same thing just by having the dragons appear out of nowhere at the end.

I think you're dangerously close to a strawman situation. Saying that Dany is a red herring who is likelier to become a villain than a hero is not the same thing as saying that she's just going to die after not doing anything and leave her dragons to someone else.

[Katerine459]

I think you're dangerously close to a strawman situation. Saying that Dany is a red herring who is likelier to become a villain than a hero is not the same thing as saying that she's just going to die after not doing anything and leave her dragons to someone else.

It's an example. I was just giving a hypothetical example of something that GRRM can't do, or risk the wrath of the readers. To illustrate the fact that there are, in fact, things that GRRM can't do. :)

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

Daenerys will act as a catalyst for the players to show their hands. I don't think she will be alive at the end, nor will she play a major role in who rules what in the end. People's reactions to her will be what defines that. She'll be long gone when it's played out proper.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It's an example. I was just giving a hypothetical example of something that GRRM can't do, or risk the wrath of the readers. To illustrate the fact that there are, in fact, things that GRRM can't do. :)

But Dany being a red herring and/or a villain is not one of the things.

And he "can" do whatever he wants, wrath of readers or not.

[Katerine459]

Daenerys will act as a catalyst for the players to show their hands. I don't think she will be alive at the end, nor will she play a major role in who rules what in the end. People's reactions to her will be what defines that. She'll be long gone when it's played out proper.

A catalyst is typically a passive thing, though. Somebody whose main role is to be a catalyst is not worthy of main-character status. Jeyne Westerling... that was a catalyst. Somebody who features prominently in most of the books, like Dany (or Jon or Arya or Bran or Sansa or Tyrion, or even Brienne or Sam or Jaime) can generally be expected to take a more active role in things. At least, eventually, if not now.

[Katerine459]

But Dany being a red herring and/or a villain is not one of the things.

True. I suppose. If you limit your definition of "red herring" to just refer to AA, that is. When I was hearing theories that Dany was a red herring, I was mainly thinking of a "red herring" as, "Hah! Fooled you! And you thought she'd be somebody important!"

As for being a villain... can't see it. Of course, GRRM is rather fond of taking our hearts out and squeezing, so maybe he will write Dany's story as a tragedy (when a good character goes bad due to some flaw, that's the very definition of a tragedy). I sincerely hope not. I'm full-up on tragedy.

And he "can" do whatever he wants, wrath of readers or not.

He can. But in some cases, it would just be bad writing. And I don't think any ASOIAF fan could think that GRRM was a bad writer.

[jenerationx]

He can. But in some cases, it would just be bad writing. And I don't think any ASOIAF fan could think that GRRM was a bad writer.

But this is entirely subjective. You might think he's a bad writer for doing something while another fan would cheer him for it. It's already kind of happened. Another poster here claims that their view of GRRM would change were he to put Dany in a support role, whereas my view of him would change if he gave the answer to a prophecy in a literal way when he has Aemon proclaim Dany the one the prophecy is talking about.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

A catalyst is typically a passive thing, though. Somebody whose main role is to be a catalyst is not worthy of main-character status. Jeyne Westerling... that was a catalyst. Somebody who features prominently in most of the books, like Dany (or Jon or Arya or Bran or Sansa or Tyrion, or even Brienne or Sam or Jaime) can generally be expected to take a more active role in things. At least, eventually, if not now.

It's typically a passive thing, it won't be (or at least will be less so) in this case.

Although it may end being so, because Daenerys' arrogance and seeming belief that Westeros will almost conquer itself for her is so pervading, that she may simply be out of her depth once she lands.

No more Barristan (IMO, not that he's much help anyway), probable desertion by Illyrio and Varys, and open to the wiles and wishes of figures such as Euron, Doran and the Great One depending on where she lands. Even Stannis is going to stick two fingers up at her.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

True. I suppose. If you limit your definition of "red herring" to just refer to AA, that is. When I was hearing theories that Dany was a red herring, I was mainly thinking of a "red herring" as, "Hah! Fooled you! And you thought she'd be somebody important!"

As for being a villain... can't see it. Of course, GRRM is rather fond of taking our hearts out and squeezing, so maybe he will write Dany's story as a tragedy (when a good character goes bad due to some flaw, that's the very definition of a tragedy). I sincerely hope not. I'm full-up on tragedy.

OK. All of this is just your opinion of what you want to happen. Which fine, but it has nothing to do with what the author can or can't do.

He can. But in some cases, it would just be bad writing. And I don't think any ASOIAF fan could think that GRRM was a bad writer.

This is SUBJECTIVE, do you realize?

I don't see it as bad writing at all. It's actually a brilliant sharp subversion of expectations. The poor exiled princess ends up destroying everything she touches. It's downright Shakespearean. And it's not as if would be out of nowhere or a gut punch or a cheap shot. This girl has been doing downright despicable things for a while now. Is it bad writing if the girl who burns, crucifies and tortures people really does end up being an antagonist? Honestly, if Dany being an antagonist even as a possibility seems out of nowhere I dare say one hadn't been paying attention to what's actually happening in her arc.

Finally, "pissing off readers" is not the same as bad writing. The Red Wedding pissed people off, was that bad writing?

[Jasta11]

I have secret hopes that the entire AA prophecy is a giant red herring, and that the solution to the Others problem will come from someone else than the Chosen Heroes Of Destiny. Martin may not be an unconventional an author as some think, but it just doesn't seem like his style to have either Jon or Dany swoop in and save the day via prophecy-given superpowers. Maybe their icons as Heroes Of Legend will make them rallying figures, but the real work at the Wall itself will be done by others (Stannis, Manderly, Hodor, whoever, someone who definitely does not fit into the classical ''hero'' archetype in any way).

In fact, I'm pretty sure Bran will be the most instrumental weapon against the Others. All those people with prophecies and dragons and pet wolves and magic swords will, in the end, win because some unusually determined cripple will have taken the lessons of an extraordinarily creepy man-tree.

As for Dany herself, she'd really have to get her pretty arse in gear to actually be instrumental. She still has ways to go in Essos, she still needs to take the IT (no mean task), she still has to control her dragons... So yeah, I do think her role in the fight against the Others will not be that instrumental.

[Katerine459]

But this is entirely subjective. You might think he's a bad writer for doing something while another fan would cheer him for it. It's already kind of happened. Another poster here claims that their view of GRRM would change were he to put Dany in a support role, whereas my view of him would change if he gave the answer to a prophecy in a literal way when he has Aemon proclaim Dany the one the prophecy is talking about.

I was just arguing against the statement that there's nothing GRRM can't do in his books. Yes, he can write whatever he wants, but that doesn't mean readers don't have the right to get angry, if he were to write badly. And some (hypothetical) things would, in fact, be writing badly, such as the below (hypothetical) example:

For example, if GRRM were to make us read all those Dany chapters, only to, say, have her only impact on the main story be to give her dragons to somebody else before dying, that would be a betrayal to the reader. Because then her entire story would not be worth it - GRRM could have accomplished the same thing just by having the dragons appear out of nowhere at the end.

I don't think anyone would cheer if GRRM were to do that! Because then we would have just read a total of hundreds of pages of story about a character that ultimately does not matter. GRRM can do lots of things. Waste our time with characters that don't matter to the story, is not one of them.

Please note... I don't actually think GRRM would do anything like this. At all. I'm just objecting to the idea that if he did, then wasting our time with a bait and switch would be perfectly ok.