Ease off Jamie, he's a good guy.......

[Dr. Pepper]

I think it's problematic that they tried to pass their kids off as someone else's, but it's also problematic that they live in a place where it's nearly impossible to choose the parent of your children. Neither Cersei nor Robert had much choice in who to marry, at least not at the time and not if Robert wanted to keep control of his crown and build a stable kingdom. It's really unfair to say that these two started the wot5k. They played a part, yes, and a rather big one. But they weren't the only players in the war game. They spent years doing their part to prevent war by keeping their secret as secret as possible. Yes, it's wrong to hide the identity of a kid, but they never intended for anyone to find out. Stannis and Jon Arryn have just as much guilt for starting the war. There was no way it was going to go when they started looking into the parentage issue. War was going to happen, even if Jaime had never pushed Bran from that window. Tywin would never have been ok if his kids and possibly his grandkids were executed or exiled and it's not a given that the entire kingdom would have supported Robert. LF and Lysa also played a rather large role in that they set started the spark on the fuse. Renly and the Tyrells were also doing their own plotting. Not to mention whatever the Martells have going on.

I'm not trying to exonerate Jaime or anything. He's an asshole and he knows it. He's done shitty things, and he knows it. But he can't be faulted with being the singular cause for the wot5k. There were a lot of dominoes that had to fall for it to get to that point. Cersei and Jaime were a pretty huge domino, but definitely not the only ones.

[Bearson]

But the problem is that Cersei tried to give what should rightfully be ROBERT'S CHILDREN INHERITANCE to her and Jamie's children.

I'd say the drinking of moon tea to kill off Robert's child in her womb was wrong, for the child's own sake. The adultery and giving birth to bastards, otoh.... Robert was a serial adulterer and a drunk, unfit to rule and unfit to be a husband. Her deception was justified insofar as that was the best way to keep her children safe - as Robert would have been just as likely to have all the children killed along with Cersei and Jaime. Doesn't make her or Jaime good, but doesn't them evil, either. She was protecting her children, and making sure they thrived - by cheating a person who she should have no reason to feel guilty about cheating.

[jon stark I]

I think it's problematic that they tried to pass their kids off as someone else's, but it's also problematic that they live in a place where it's nearly impossible to choose the parent of your children. Neither Cersei nor Robert had much choice in who to marry, at least not at the time and not if Robert wanted to keep control of his crown and build a stable kingdom. It's really unfair to say that these two started the wot5k. They played a part, yes, and a rather big one. But they weren't the only players in the war game. They spent years doing their part to prevent war by keeping their secret as secret as possible. Yes, it's wrong to hide the identity of a kid, but they never intended for anyone to find out. Stannis and Jon Arryn have just as much guilt for starting the war. There was no way it was going to go when they started looking into the parentage issue. War was going to happen, even if Jaime had never pushed Bran from that window. Tywin would never have been ok if his kids and possibly his grandkids were executed or exiled and it's not a given that the entire kingdom would have supported Robert. LF and Lysa also played a rather large role in that they set started the spark on the fuse. Renly and the Tyrells were also doing their own plotting. Not to mention whatever the Martells have going on.

I'm not trying to exonerate Jaime or anything. He's an asshole and he knows it. He's done shitty things, and he knows it. But he can't be faulted with being the singular cause for the wot5k. There were a lot of dominoes that had to fall for it to get to that point. Cersei and Jaime were a pretty huge domino, but definitely not the only ones.

Dude(or girl) are you serious?So Stannis and Jon are guilty.They were siblings having sex since they were little and they kept going for years.They passed their kids as royal blood and Stannis is guilty because he didn't want to give crown to these monsters.If incest was revealed then Tywin had no chance against Robert.Look there are 7 kingdoms and at least 4 of them will support Robert.North, Stromlands, Tullys, Arryn and Dorne would like a slice of Lannister blood for sure so if it was revealed earlier then all of this could have been prevented with much less bloodshed.(also Martels were planning to mary Robert to Marg so Who would back Tywin?)

[Winter's Knight]

I'd say the drinking of moon tea to kill off Robert's child in her womb was wrong, for the child's own sake.

Eh, her body her choice-especially when going through with the pregnancy would have very likely killed her.

I think it's problematic that they tried to pass their kids off as someone else's, but it's also problematic that they live in a place where it's nearly impossible to choose the parent of your children. Neither Cersei nor Robert had much choice in who to marry, at least not at the time and not if Robert wanted to keep control of his crown and build a stable kingdom. It's really unfair to say that these two started the wot5k. They played a part, yes, and a rather big one. But they weren't the only players in the war game. They spent years doing their part to prevent war by keeping their secret as secret as possible. Yes, it's wrong to hide the identity of a kid, but they never intended for anyone to find out. Stannis and Jon Arryn have just as much guilt for starting the war. There was no way it was going to go when they started looking into the parentage issue. War was going to happen, even if Jaime had never pushed Bran from that window. Tywin would never have been ok if his kids and possibly his grandkids were executed or exiled and it's not a given that the entire kingdom would have supported Robert. LF and Lysa also played a rather large role in that they set started the spark on the fuse. Renly and the Tyrells were also doing their own plotting. Not to mention whatever the Martells have going on.

I'm not trying to exonerate Jaime or anything. He's an asshole and he knows it. He's done shitty things, and he knows it. But he can't be faulted with being the singular cause for the wot5k. There were a lot of dominoes that had to fall for it to get to that point. Cersei and Jaime were a pretty huge domino, but definitely not the only ones.

This.

[Winter's Knight]

Dude(or girl) are you serious?So Stannis and Jon are guilty.They were siblings having sex since they were little and they kept going for years.They passed their kids as royal blood and Stannis is guilty because he didn't want to give crown to these monsters.If incest was revealed then Tywin had no chance against Robert.Look there are 7 kingdoms and at least 4 of them will support Robert.North, Stromlands, Tullys, Arryn and Dorne would like a slice of Lannister blood for sure so if it was revealed earlier then all of this could have been prevented with much less bloodshed.(also Martels were planning to mary Robert to Marg so Who would back Tywin?)

Does it really matter who has the crown though? And is the colour of a child's hair worth inciting another civil war over?

I mean, suppose Tommen had been born first-would we as readers feel so strongly over the treason?

[jon stark I]

Does it really matter who has the crown though? And is the colour of a child's hair worth inciting another civil war over?

I mean, suppose Tommen had been born first-would we as readers feel so strongly over the treason?

I would.If Cersei and Jaime are his parents then even if Arya(who is my favourite character) was their child I would still find it disgusting.And if you didn't look closely all those incest born children are too easy to control and it would still mean Cersei in power so NO.

[The Wolves]

But he can't be faulted with being the singular cause for the wot5k. Cersei and Jaime were a pretty huge domino, but definitely not the only ones.

I don't think anybody puts the war squarely on Cersei and Jamie, but they do deserve nearly all the blame. If they didn't sire bastards that weren't the Kings' children than this particular war wouldn't be happening.

Without the bastards which Jamie and Cersei are equally at fault for than this war wouldn't have happened. Everything that happened in TWot5K is a direct or indirect cause from the bastard breeding and throne stealing. The part Jamie and Cersei played in creating a major civil war should not be minimized.

Also I don't think its fair to always defend Cersei in saying she was protecting her children when in fact she knowingly created the very environment that has threatened her children's lives.

[Dany Girl]

Eh, her body her choice-especially when going through with the pregnancy would have very likely killed her.

while I 100% agree with you on it being her choice, I'm just confused as to why you think it likely would have killed her to keep it?

[Dr. Pepper]

Dude(or girl) are you serious?So Stannis and Jon are guilty.They were siblings having sex since they were little and they kept going for years.They passed their kids as royal blood and Stannis is guilty because he didn't want to give crown to these monsters.If incest was revealed then Tywin had no chance against Robert.Look there are 7 kingdoms and at least 4 of them will support Robert.North, Stromlands, Tullys, Arryn and Dorne would like a slice of Lannister blood for sure so if it was revealed earlier then all of this could have been prevented with much less bloodshed.(also Martels were planning to mary Robert to Marg so Who would back Tywin?)

Uh, yeah, I'm serious. I'm not morally opposed to incest, abortion, or a woman's right to choose the father of her children. I do have issues with passing of children as from the body of someone else, but it's hard not to consider the circumstances. Barring running off into the sunset together, Jaime and Cersei couldn't have admitted the parentage of the children without them and their children being put in grave danger. I think they have a right to protect themselves and their children so long as it does not cause bodily harm to someone else. They crossed that line when Jaime defenestrated Bran. Before that, they were just adulterers and liars.

As WK asked, would you find it a problem if the first child had been Tommen? If Joffrey had been a perfectly upstanding citizen, would have be calling them monsters? I don't buy into the idea that only those with the 'right' blood are fit for rule. It's a flawed governing system. Joffrey was a little shit and even if he was a true Baratheon, he was never fit to rule. If Stannis hadn't been so shortsighted and if he had the ability to see in shades of grey rather than black and white, he might have stepped in to attempt to correct the problems with Joffrey, to assist in molding him for his future job or spoken to Robert about how the realm would fare if Joff were on the throne.

I also didn't say that Tywin would have beat Robert. I said that Tywin would never have been ok with it. War was going to happen regardless if Tywin might have ended up on the losing end. No one was backing Tywin when he got himself involved in the first place. It was him against everyone else, and he managed to come out nearly on top....until his son killed him.

[jon stark I]

while I 100% agree with you on it being her choice, I'm just confused as to why you think it likely would have killed her to keep it?

Well one child is pitch black others are shining like the sun.

[Dany Girl]

Well one child is pitch black others are shining like the sun.

4/5 Stark kids have auburn hair and green eyes, only 1 has brown hair and grey eyes. Does that put any of them in danger of being thought of as anyone other than Ned's kids? I think having 1 Robert kid would have helped her in fact because since 1 kid looks like Dad, there's less reason to doubt the others.

[The Wolves]

I think having 1 Robert kid would have helped her in fact because since 1 kid looks like Dad, there's less reason to doubt the others.

I agree with this. Cersei should have had at least one of Robert's kid to protect herself and her children but she's dumb so........

[jon stark I]

I am not saying it won't help her cause but unlike Starks Baretheons really had strong seed I mean all of them black as night.

[Winter's Knight]

while I 100% agree with you on it being her choice, I'm just confused as to why you think it likely would have killed her to keep it?

All her pregnancies have a more than even chance of killing her, considering the poor healthcare and living conditions of Westeros.

[Dr. Pepper]

I don't think anybody puts the war squarely on Cersei and Jamie, but they do deserve nearly all the blame. If they didn't sire bastards that weren't the Kings' children than this particular war wouldn't be happening.

Without the bastards which Jamie and Cersei are equally at fault for than this war wouldn't have happened. Everything that happened in TWot5K is a direct or indirect cause from the bastard breeding and throne stealing. The part Jamie and Cersei played in creating a major civil war should not be maximized.

Also I don't think its fair to always defend Cersei in saying she was protecting her children when in fact she knowingly created the very environment that has threatened her children's lives.

jon stark I put the war squarely on Cersei and Jaime. I was unable to quote him with the device I was using, but I was responding directly to him. You are also saying that nearly all of the blame falls on them. It doesn't. Their secret would have remained secret if Stannis and Jon Arryn had not started digging. It's impossible to not fault these two men as playing a large role, just as it's impossible to not fault Lysa and LF for the shit they pulled that played a large role. If no one started digging and if Lysa hadn't killed her husband, it's likely no one would have ever worried about the parentage of the kids.

Yes, Cersei and Jaime freely and knowingly sired children out of wedlock and by doing so they committed adultery which is technically treason in their world. However, Cerse was protecting her children by keeping it secret. I defend her for that, because there's no reason not to. I also defend Jaime for it. He was deprived of being a father in order to protect their lives. I'd also defend the parents of Flea Bottom who have kids when doing so they would knowingly put their kids in danger due to the problems of poverty. It's completely unfair to single out Cersei and not point out everyone else who have kids outside of the most perfect conditions.

[Mrs_Darcy]

Well one child is pitch black others are shining like the sun.

IMO, having children, that look like Robert would probably have helped hide the paternity of her other kids. Remember that Elia Martell (a salty Dornishwoman with olive skin) has a daughter that has her colouring and a son, that has the silvery white hair and purple eyes of her husbands.

If Cersei had born some Baratheon looking babies and some Lannister looking, people would likely think, that in these kids traits from his Targaryen heritage come through (which would even be according to some rules of inheritance of genes).

[Dr. Pepper]

while I 100% agree with you on it being her choice, I'm just confused as to why you think it likely would have killed her to keep it?

I think this gets into potentially fatal territory. Abortion rights discussions rarely turn out well. Still, I think if you agree that Cersei has a right to choose, she should have a right to choose no matter what.

[Winter's Knight]

I am not saying it won't help her cause but unlike Starks Baretheons really had strong seed I mean all of them black as night.

Considering that we see, what, two previous Baratheon/Lannister children mentioned, it's a rather small sample space no?

If Cersei had not confessed, what proof would we have had?

[Fat Mac]

I am not saying it won't help her cause but unlike Starks Baretheons really had strong seed I mean all of them black as night.

No one made the connection about the Baratheon genes though. Jon Arryn didn't know until he consulted the lineage book and met several of Robert's bastards. It's not like it was common knowledge. Therefore, no one found it suspicious that Cersei's kids all looked like her, especially because both her parents were Lannisters as well.

[Dany Girl]

I think this gets into potentially fatal territory. Abortion rights discussions rarely turn out well. Still, I think if you agree that Cersei has a right to choose, she should have a right to choose no matter what.

I wasn't questioning the abortion part, just why this pregnancy might have been fatal when the others weren't. I don't recall if this one was before, after, or in between the others. So saying this was a dangerous pregnancy is not correct IMO. I do agree with WK that all pregnancies are dangerous and have the potential to kill the mother though.