Aegon: Real or Fake?

[Tini]

True. But I always thought that it meaned clothed as a red dragon when he is a black.

And I always thought of coronation festivities when thinking of the cloth dragon.

[Fire and Blood!]

Real unless proven otherwise.

[adiman83]

Real unless proven otherwise.

Read my post. There's no way for Aegon to be real.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Real unless proven otherwise.

Read my post. There's no way for Aegon to be real.

this and also there are no clues that he is real :D

[LC Jaime Lannister]

There is a R+L=J sticky... why is there not one for this?

[Fire and Blood!]

Read my post. There's no way for Aegon to be real.

I read it and by the way you are not the first one to use this logic as "evidence". I tell you this - Varys didn't know Clegane would smash the baby's head nor was that an essential part of his plan. Even if the boy's face was recognisable who exactly would've confirmed if this really is Aegon? The only one that comes to mind is Pycelle and even if it was confirmed that the boy was not Aegon it would've made no difference for Varys' plan. By the time Tywin and Robert realised they were tricked Aegon would've been safely away and that was the whole point - save the prince. The fact that Clegane, ever the brute, made things even easier was pure luck for Varys.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I read it and by the way you are not the first one to use this logic as "evidence". I tell you this - Varys didn't know Clegane would smash the baby's head nor was that an essential part of his plan. Even if the boy's face was recognisable who exactly would've confirmed if this really is Aegon? The only one that comes to mind is Pycelle and even if it was confirmed that the boy was not Aegon it would've made no difference for Varys' plan. By the time Tywin and Robert realised they were tricked Aegon would've been safely away and that was the whole point - save the prince. The fact that Clegane, ever the brute, made things even easier was pure luck for Varys.

Then why Elia was with Aegon and not Rhaenys?

[adiman83]

Then why Elia was with Aegon and not Rhaenys?

And why save only Aegon and not both of them as they did with Viserys and Dany? If Varys went to so much trouble to replace one of the babies, why not replace both of them and increase the chances of claiming the IT?

I read it and by the way you are not the first one to use this logic as "evidence". I tell you this - Varys didn't know Clegane would smash the baby's head nor was that an essential part of his plan. Even if the boy's face was recognisable who exactly would've confirmed if this really is Aegon? The only one that comes to mind is Pycelle and even if it was confirmed that the boy was not Aegon it would've made no difference for Varys' plan. By the time Tywin and Robert realised they were tricked Aegon would've been safely away and that was the whole point - save the prince. The fact that Clegane, ever the brute, made things even easier was pure luck for Varys.

Who would've confirmed if that was Aegon? Uhmmm ..... how about Tywin? I'm pretty sure he knew how the babies looked like and showing Robert a fake baby would've been a really big dent in his credibility as a supporter of the rebellion. The houses supporting the rebellion might have thought the LAnnsiters are secretly helping the Dragons survive and reclaim the throne. Not to mention that if the so-called plan would've failed and people would've noticed the replacement, it would've been a real threat to Robert's claim since I'm sure there were plenty of Houses still loyal to the Targaryens waiting for a reason to oppose the Baratheons.

[Fire and Blood!]

Then why Elia was with Aegon and not Rhaenys?

I imagine that the whole switch happened literally during the sack of King's Landing so Elia was probably at the same spot she was with real Aegon moments before. Furthermore she might have been bedridden and unable to go look for Rhaenys.

[Fire and Blood!]

Who would've confirmed if that was Aegon? Uhmmm ..... how about Tywin? I'm pretty sure he knew how the babies looked like and showing Robert a fake baby would've been a really big dent in his credibility as a supporter of the rebellion. The houses supporting the rebellion might have thought the LAnnsiters are secretly helping the Dragons survive and reclaim the throne. Not to mention that if the so-called plan would've failed and people would've noticed the replacement, it would've been a real threat to Robert's claim since I'm sure there were plenty of Houses still loyal to the Targaryens waiting for a reason to oppose the Baratheons.

How would Tywin know exactly how Aegon looks and are you certain that he would've been able to recognise a similarly looking bayby? Viserys was a living male heir of house Targaryen and Robert never considered him a serious threat nor did he try to harm him even though he knew exactly where he was, and Aegon would probably have remained hidden.

[adiman83]

How would Tywin know exactly how Aegon looks and are you certain that he would've been able to recognise a similarly looking bayby? Viserys was a living male heir of house Targaryen and Robert never considered him a serious threat nor did he try to harm him even though he knew exactly where he was, and Aegon would probably have remained hidden.

He was a Hand for 20 years and he even knew Rhaegar since he was born, I'm quite sure ofthat. So I'm pretty sure he was very familiar with the Targaryen traits considering they were the only Valyrian family in Westeros at that time. So silver hair and purple eyes are kind of a dead giveaway in the Seven Kingdoms. To fool Tywin you would have to find a baby with exactly those traits and there were no such babies in Kings Landing. Well .... not so common to easily find one during the sacking, anyway.

Anyway, you're entitled to your opinion and in the long run I guess it doesn't really matter if Griff is the real Aegon or not. Varys' plot moves on regardless of that and Aegon's entire point is to be the right ruler for Westeros and not a power-hungry maniac who only cares about him own purse.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I imagine that the whole switch happened literally during the sack of King's Landing so Elia was probably at the same spot she was with real Aegon moments before. Furthermore she might have been bedridden and unable to go look for Rhaenys.

Do you seriously believe that a mother would had abandon her child or even worse would have condemned the child to die?

[Fire and Blood!]

Do you seriously believe that a mother would had abandon her child or even worse would have condemned the child to die?

Of course not, bur she had no choice on the matter really. Place yourself in her position if you have the choice to either save on of your children or see both die what would you choose?

He was a Hand for 20 years and he even knew Rhaegar since he was born, I'm quite sure ofthat. So I'm pretty sure he was very familiar with the Targaryen traits considering they were the only Valyrian family in Westeros at that time. So silver hair and purple eyes are kind of a dead giveaway in the Seven Kingdoms. To fool Tywin you would have to find a baby with exactly those traits and there were no such babies in Kings Landing. Well .... not so common to easily find one during the sacking, anyway.

Anyway, you're entitled to your opinion and in the long run I guess it doesn't really matter if Griff is the real Aegon or not. Varys' plot moves on regardless of that and Aegon's entire point is to be the right ruler for Westeros and not a power-hungry maniac who only cares about him own purse.

I'm sure Tywin knew Rhaegar and the Targaryen traits but that means nothing, Rhaenys was Rhaegar's true-born daughter and she didn't have Targaryen traits. I believe Tywin had never seen Aegon to know what he looks like and if he has the Targaryen look. I'm sure any blonde and blue-eyed baby would have fooled those who mattered with the possible exception of Pycelle.

I do agree with you that in the end it doesn't really matter if Aegon is real or not. He and Connington both believe him to be Aegon son of Rhaegar and that is all that matters. I would however prefer it if he's real so whenever someone says he can't be I argue against it because that's simply not the case.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Of course not, bur she had no choice on the matter really. Place yourself in her position if you have the choice to either save on of your children or see both die what would you choose?

Neither and if someone has took that decision for me I would have died trying to protect the other one over some stranger.

[RhaenysBee]

He is real. Tyrion could tell and that is all I need for evidence. Also I find all the Blackfyre theories hilarious. The Blackfyres will have nothing big if anything in the next two books. The Blackfyres are for the Dunk and Egg novellas. All the people who have not read Dunk and Egg would be completely confused if a Blackfyre showed up and it would be cheap. Because from GOT to ADWD there is no real talk of Blackfyres because they are not pertinent to this saga.

I'm not sure he's real. Nor am I sure that he's fake. But I agree with you about the last part. I didn't even know who the Blackfyres were until about a year ago when I came to this forum and faced the (F)Aegon is a Blackfyre theory, the mention of them in ASOIAF is so brief and forgettable. I'd find a Blackfyre pop up quite overwrought.

Well, if you wanted more evidence to support his legitimacy you could say the hat, use the quote "He died half a world away, if he died at all" or "If a king wanted me dead, might be I'd oblige him and pretend to be a corpse", the complete destruction of the baby's skull that evceryone believed was Aegon, and the fact that Dany is most likely barren and without an heir the Targaryens will die out.

Maybe that's what will happen. I'd hate it, but it still sounds better to me than the whole Blackfyre issue. If Aegon is fake and GRRM keeps Daenerys barren, and R+L=J fails too, we are right there.

He was a Hand for 20 years and he even knew Rhaegar since he was born, I'm quite sure ofthat. So I'm pretty sure he was very familiar with the Targaryen traits considering they were the only Valyrian family in Westeros at that time. So silver hair and purple eyes are kind of a dead giveaway in the Seven Kingdoms. To fool Tywin you would have to find a baby with exactly those traits and there were no such babies in Kings Landing. Well .... not so common to easily find one during the sacking, anyway.

Anyway, you're entitled to your opinion and in the long run I guess it doesn't really matter if Griff is the real Aegon or not. Varys' plot moves on regardless of that and Aegon's entire point is to be the right ruler for Westeros and not a power-hungry maniac who only cares about him own purse.

Only the baby's skull was smashed. So Tywin could screw the purple eyes and the silver-gold hair... And to begin with... Aegon was a baby. Babies' eye and hair color change quickly and drastically. It's not like only because he's a Targ, he had bright lilac eyes and trade-mark silver mane from the moment he was born. And I think Tywin is the very last person who would pay more than a passing glance to Rhaegar's dead baby son. I can't imagine him sniffing around the corpses making sure they are the actual Targaryen babies. They found a baby with Elia and that was more than proof enough for everybody.

The one theory concerning Aegon I can roughly relate to is that Aegon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son and not the real Aegon, though that one is bleeding from a thousand wounds too... And this is another thing I doubt we'll ever find out.

[True.Edged]

Who can really say, all of the evidence is EXTREMELY circumspect. Neither the Aegon or (f)Aegon supporters have a real leg to stand on other then speculation, and until GRRM decides to let us know(if he does) the matter can never really be settled. The most solid piece of evidence in the entire debate is the SSM where GRRM replies that Rhaenys is dead when asked if Rhaegar's children are dead and both sides have used that. Aegon supporters would say it shows he never died, (f)Aegon supporters would say that GRRM would never reveal such an important twist in an SSM.

I believe it's certainly possible he's fake, though I hope he isn't. If only for the delicious tears from those who argue so fervently for f(Aegon).

[adiman83]

Who can really say, all of the evidence is EXTREMELY circumspect. Neither the Aegon or (f)Aegon supporters have a real leg to stand on other then speculation, and until GRRM decides to let us know(if he does) the matter can never really be settled. The most solid piece of evidence in the entire debate is the SSM where GRRM replies that Rhaenys is dead when asked if Rhaegar's children are dead and both sides have used that. Aegon supporters would say it shows he never died, (f)Aegon supporters would say that GRRM would never reveal such an important twist in an SSM.

I believe it's certainly possible he's fake, though I hope he isn't. If only for the delicious tears from those who argue so fervently for f(Aegon).

I'm a supporter of the (f)Aegon) theories but you won't see any tears in my eyes if he proves to be real. But if and when we find out if he's real or not, it would be very exciting to come back to these pages and see which one of us had it right.

The one theory concerning Aegon I can roughly relate to is that Aegon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son and not the real Aegon, though that one is bleeding from a thousand wounds too... And this is another thing I doubt we'll ever find out.

That's Jon, mate! Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, not Aegon. There are plenty of signs for that one but this is not the subject of the thread so I'm not going to mention it.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

That's Jon, mate! Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, not Aegon. There are plenty of signs for that one but this is not the subject of the thread so I'm not going to mention it.

Oh my sweet summer child. There is the theory that Jon is Aegon.

[RoamingRonin]

Then why Elia was with Aegon and not Rhaenys?

Because Rhaenys ran out of the room to go hide under her father's bed.

Real or fake, Rhaenys ran away from her mother to hide. It has nothing to do with Elia. She couldn't do anything about it.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Because Rhaenys ran out of the room to go hide under her father's bed.

Real or fake, Rhaenys ran away from her mother to hide.

Or Elia told her to hide, which is more likely and Elia stayed with her son.