Lord Dustin's Bones = Arthur Dayne being alive

[Barristan the G.O.A.T]

From the wiki "Mance was a wildling child taken by the Night's Watch and raised as one of them.^[3] "

As a result Arthur Dayne cannot be Mance Rayder due to the fact that Mance was raised from childhood in the watch. Qhorin Halfhand, Maester Aemon, Jeor Mormont and the like would have known who Arthur Dayne was. Furthermore, Mance was in Winterfell when Jon was a boy. How could Arthur Dayne visit winterfell when he was a member of the Kingsguard. Arthur Dayne is not Mance Rayder.

Secondly, Ned went to Dorne Immediately after the Tower of Joy. As a result Lord Dustins body wouldnt even have decomposed yet. How would they pawn his body off as Arthur Daynes?

In addition, Wylla was with Ned as well. Why would she lie about Arthur's death to Ashara? What's the point of faking his death?

[Sultan Of Sleaze]

To be honest I'm not 100% sold on Mance=Arthur Dayne, I was mainly posting my theory about Lord Dustin's bones. It just seemed like something was missing if I posted that I believe Dayne was still alive without theorizing about where he would be if alive. I just felt Mance more likely than something like Arthur Dayne=Darkstar or that he is one of the characters in Essos.

That being said, I strongly believe that Lord Dustin's bones could have been passed off as Dayne's bones to fake his death. Yes it would be out of character for Dayne to just stop fighting a losing battle but it is way more out of character for Ned to leave his bannermen's bones under a pile of rocks but return the deadman's horse across most of Westeros to the wife's widow instead. Especially since there were no word of the other Stark men not getting their bones returned which includes Lady Dustin's brother, Mark Ryswell. Ned may have made a point to return the horse to make up for the fact that he couldn't return the bones since horses are important to the Ryswells (symbolically at least since it is the sigil of their house).

As for the Dayne's being cool with Ned despite the events, it might be possible that they respected him for manning up and returning Dawn personally. To me, it still seems more like it that they were eventually in on it. Otherwise, Edric saying he is frequently called Ned would be just unlikely as Tommen saying his family nickname is Aegon.

I was also influenced to suggest Mance=Arthur based on the original actor the show wanted to play Mance, Dominic West. I could definitely picture a 16 year younger version of Dominic West playing Arthur Dayne. That's grasping though.

[MasterJack]

yep I'm 99.99% sure he is dead but GO 0.01 % ! :commie:

I'm 80% sure he is dead. 1/5, better than a dice.

OP, I think the weird choice of words and lack of description of his death. + Why can you (an author) write a 5000+ pages medieval fantasy story and kill your best fighter before the story even begin. GRRM is known for breaking convention but this is just a waste.

The part about Edric (Ned) is weird too, why name a child after the guy who killed your brother and his rumored to be the cause of your sister's suicide. Ohh yes.. he brought back the sword.....

[Dagon]

Very cool, I hope it's true. Just as others have said, he's likely not Mance.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm not seeing it, sorry. And I say this as someone who in general is open to the theory that Ashara married Howland and is Meera and Jojen's mother.

Ned didn't return Dustin's bones. But he returned nobody's bones. Seven other guys died down there, and none of them were sent back to their family homes. Ned even took Dawn to Starfall and even then it doesn't say he brought Arthur's body back with him. They built cairns for every guy that died. The only one who was hauled home was Lyanna, and this can be easily explained in terms of either sentimentality (she was his sister) and/or practically (he wanted to be in complete possession of her remains to prevent someone else was examining them, etc.). Other than Lady Dustin waxing grudgy to Theon, I'm not sure why you single out Lord Dustin's bones as proof of anything about Arthur. He's not the only guy buried down there, and there's also something to be said for men in combat to be buried near to where they fought and died.

Ned says that he would have been killed by Arthur had it not been for Howland. He also remembers that of the seven only two lived to ride away. Given Arthur's reputation, it speaks extremely well of Ned to have been the one who killed him. Does anyone really see Ned allowing that kind of falsehood to bolster his reputation? Would he accept credit for killing a man whom he didn't kill, when that distinction is a "big deal" in their society? I sincerely doubt it. Ned would tell a lie that would harm his reputation (that Jon's his bastard), but I can never see him telling a lie that puffed him up. It's just not how he is.

And other people have pointed out that the Arthur/Mance thing doesn't work, so I'll leave that alone.

[RaidenSchumacher]

I saw a guy in Solitude in Skyrim who said he used to be an adventurer like me, but he took an arrow to the knee.

It's well known Howland Reed was a skilled archer. Perhaps Arthur Dayne is living in Solitude?

[Neilos]

I like the theory.

That said, I will never understand the fascination with Arthur Dayne around here. It's based on very little textual material. The character never even appears; all we have are a few anecdotes about him (notably from Jaime and Ned), and small ones at that.

[Ludd]

There is something odd about the ToJ story.

What really happened to Dustin?

[Dagon]

I saw a guy in Solitude in Skyrim who said he used to be an adventurer like me, but he took an arrow to the knee.

It's well known Howland Reed was a skilled archer. Perhaps Arthur Dayne is living in Solitude?

An "arrow to the knee" is a colloquial term for getting married in Skyrim. I thought it was weird for so many people I encountered to have taken arrows to the knee.

[Sultan Of Sleaze]

The text never says that Ned returned any of the other bones but it is the absence of others complaining about missing bones that leads me to believe Lord Dustin was the only one. Jory and Rodrick never complained about Martyn's missing bones despite serving Ned so closely. No complaints from the Glovers. Even Lady Dustin doesn't mention her kin, Mark Ryswell's missing bones when it would be so easy to complain about both. And Lady Dustin has many other reasons to support Roose Bolton besides the bones like how her sister was married to him and she has a brother with the same name (possibly named for him) or even her treatment by Brandon Stark, so it is not like she needed to mention the bones as an excuse for turning on the Starks.

As for the fasination with Arthur Dayne, I think its because he is only mentioned by other characters who do some myth making. Ned and Jamie look to him as being the finest knight of their lifetime but the character isn't around doing stuff to make you think less of him. Characters who are believed to be dead get superlatives thrown their way all the time like Aerys or Rheagar. It also helps that he wielded such a unique sword that is said to be older than most houses in Westeros. Maybe Darkstar was right and Arthur Dayne was over-rated due to the sword.

[RaidenSchumacher]

An "arrow to the knee" is a colloquial term for getting married in Skyrim. I thought it was weird for so many people I encountered to have taken arrows to the knee.

First time I've heard that.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The text never says that Ned returned any of the other bones but it is the absence of others complaining about missing bones that leads me to believe Lord Dustin was the only one. Jory and Rodrick never complained about Martyn's missing bones despite serving Ned so closely. No complaints from the Glovers. Even Lady Dustin doesn't mention her kin, Mark Ryswell's missing bones when it would be so easy to complain about both. And Lady Dustin has many other reasons to support Roose Bolton besides the bones like how her sister was married to him and she has a brother with the same name (possibly named for him) or even her treatment by Brandon Stark, so it is not like she needed to mention the bones as an excuse for turning on the Starks.

The text strongly implies that all eight men who died at the Tower of Joy were buried at the site in Dorne.

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge.

They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

These are Ned's memories. The two who "lived to ride away" might be a possible instance of veiled thinking, had Ned not explicitly thought of himself and Howland. Those two quotes suggests that 1. everyone but Howland and Ned died and 2. the dead were buried at the Tower of Joy's site. Now, how and why they died and under what circumstances are still very much open to question. But the actual numerical process — seven face three, two survive and the rest die — I just can't see the argument.

As for the others complaining, we don't know if they did or not. Even if Rodrik or Jory had complained about Martyn, is that something that will really be brought up in the story? Lady Dustin, as you suggested, has more reason to complain than the others. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

You mention Lady Dustin's reasons for going against the Starks while not mentioning a huge reason why she'd go against the Boltons or at least against Ramsay: Ramsay Bolton is widely believed to have killed her nephew, Domeric.

[noSer]

Has anyone brought up that the OP theory...which i don't find that cracked...is flawed bc why would fake bones be needed when the family is in on it? Its unlikely his bones would ever be seen by anyone outside of the House even if real so why bring a fake body when all u need is a box full of rocks? I will say though that i still think the question of why did Ned leave his body in Dorne is lesser discussed mystery and the OP might still be on the right track to brand new mystery.

[LC Jaime Lannister]

Way to many faked death theories going on :<

[Lost Melnibonean]

If she had given a damn about her husband's bones she woulda sent a Stout down to fetch 'em. Either she's still pissed about putting out and then getting spurned by Brandon, or her support for Bolton is an act, although Houses Dustin and Ryswell do seem to be aligned with House Bolton.

[Little Balerion]

I think there is a possibility that Arthur Dayne is alive, but I most certainly do not think it's Mance.

There was someone who said it could be Qhorin Halfhand.

I do find it unusual that Ned went to return Dawn to Starfall after (allegedly) having killed Arthur. Who goes to return swords of their enemies after battle? No one.

And since the Dayne are First Men like the Starks, I do think these families have ties that go way back.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think there is a possibility that Arthur Dayne is alive, but I most certainly do not think it's Mance.

There was someone who said it could be Qhorin Halfhand.

I do find it unusual that Ned went to return Dawn to Starfall after (allegedly) having killed Arthur. Who goes to return swords of their enemies after battle? No one.

And since the Dayne are First Men like the Starks, I do think these families have ties that go way back.

Uh, Ned does. Because it's the honorable thing to do and the sword has been in the Dayne family for a long damn time. It's absolutely within his personality to deliver the sword. I don't think it's out of the question for him to be doing other things at Starfall (using it as a port to get home, taking Wylla back from the Tower, powwowing with relevant people about how to sell the Jon story), but there's nothing suspicious about a man like Ned Stark taking the ancestral sword back to its home, especially when Ned has nothing but respect for Arthur.

Has anyone brought up that the OP theory...which i don't find that cracked...is flawed bc why would fake bones be needed when the family is in on it? Its unlikely his bones would ever be seen by anyone outside of the House even if real so why bring a fake body when all u need is a box full of rocks? I will say though that i still think the question of why did Ned leave his body in Dorne is lesser discussed mystery and the OP might still be on the right track to brand new mystery.

I honestly don't think burying the men in Dorne is that crazy or enough to suggest a "mystery." Look at how many American soldiers are buried in cemeteries in Europe, or near Civil War battlefields. It's not that uncommon for soldiers to be buried at or near the place where they fought and died.

[Ahura Mazda]

I have a problem understanding the OP.

You claim that Ned tried to conceal the Dustin's body as if it was Dayne's body, therefore:

- everyone would believe Dayne dead

- Ned could not give back Dustin's body

Since "it is known" that Dustin died at the Tower of Joy as well, whose dead corpse did Ned Stark pretend to be Dustin? Wasn't he still one corpse amiss?

Or do you propose that he "officially" wanted people know that he gave back such corpse, whereas he didn't? Because he still dug the right number of graves - afaik - for all the dead people.. one missing body would have gone noticed to anyone willingly to dig and check it. Also, Dustin's lady didn't stay quite "silent" on the matter, that could have raised some suspicious..

Note: If Mance is really hiding some identity, then it's Rhaegar. It seems to me he has a lot in common with him, except the appearance.. but magic..

[Free Northman]

In general I find it extremely wasteful to kill off highly interesting characters prematurely, and therefore I am always keen to support theories of dead characters actually not being dead.

Wasted characters in my view include the Smalljon (considering we are now stuck with the decrepit Crowfood and Whoresbane when we could have had the 7 foot Smalljon on a quest for vengeance instead), Quorin Halfhand (given the absolute dregs of society we are left with at the Wall), Oberyn Martell, and even Tywin Lannister.

All of these characters made the story more spicy and interesting while they were around.

Arthur Dayne is another such character. I would love for him to be alive. But Ned's quote seems to make it impossible.

[Arya kiddin']

I saw a guy in Solitude in Skyrim who said he used to be an adventurer like me, but he took an arrow to the knee.

It's well known Howland Reed was a skilled archer. Perhaps Arthur Dayne is living in Solitude?

Are you sure it was only in Solitude? There are like a gazillion guards scattered throughout Skyrim who used to be adventurers but took an arrow to the knee. :lol:

Also we know what happened to Ned anyway.