So how did the First Men start recieving Green abilities?

[mindchap]

Was this something they always had, and just didn't understand, or was there some kind of bond magic,say, by forging the pact with the Children of the Forest? Thoughts?

[JC Denton]

Miscgenation with the CotF.

[yolkboy]

Breeding or bloodmagic. Probably the first one is my guess.

[mindchap]

Miscgenation with the CotF.

Breeding or bloodmagic. Probably the first one is my guess.

I'm guessing some things are best left out of the imagination.

[Free Northman]

It's a spiritual gift. So if you start praying to the Old Gods and completely submerse yourself in their practices and rituals, you gain the abilities over time.

It's not a genetic "X-Men" type of mutation or other pseudo-scientific basis for these powers. It's spiritual magic.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Breeding or bloodmagic. Probably the first one is my guess.

Yea probably this.

I also think how the Starks produced many skinchangers is....

Crackpot- I saw this theory Bran the builder is actually the Night King thats why his name was removed from history so Starks have Others' blood in them, as well as first men

[mindchap]

Yea probably this.

I also think how the Starks produced many skinchangers is....

Crackpot- I saw this theory Bran the builder is actually the Night King thats why his name was removed from history so Starks have Others' blood in them, as well as first men

I wondered about that as well, given Ned's love of the cold and his dream of "a frozen hell reserved only for the Stark's of Winterfell", but I just chalked the dream up to being the crypts below WF, maybe not....

My own crackpot and my reason for asking the OP was that maybe the FM were skinchangers and the CotF were something else and the merging of the two lead to the Greenseers.

[Arya kiddin']

I think it comes from CotF. Cross Breeding, maybe. CotF were very close to the nature and learned the ways of magic. After the pact First Men also started to pick it up.

[Ser Pigeon Pie]

Breeding most probably, although it's not something you really want to think about. Dirty bloody Starks!!

[mindchap]

Breeding most probably, although it's not something you really want to think about. Dirty bloody Starks!!

It does seem kind of creepy, like one of those really bad anime movies.

[danm_999]

Based on where these talents are still strong, I'm guessing it's interbreeding. Seems the most logical explanation, when you think about it.

Despite the Old Gods being worshipped devoutly from the Wall to the Neck (with some obvious exceptions like White Harbour), and some places even further south, a disproportionately large amount of skinchangers come from Beyond the Wall, where the Children of the Forest still live. If it was about faith in the Old Gods, it seems like that talent wouldn't be so very clustered. In terms of human vs inhuman breeding, there's already whispers of doing the same with giants and even with what might be the Others, so I'm guessing it also went on with the COTF.

Also explains why people like Arya and Sansa, who have what I'd charitably call a loose affiliation with the Old Gods, are capable of skinchaning.

[Ahura Mazda]

Given the description of the CoTF, I don't think that this is the result of interbreeding. They are completely different from human race, hence genetically incompatible.

The only historical known event of this type seems to be the King of Winter though - while he surely attempted to get his icy lady pregnant - I don't recall it to be textually confirmed that he did indeed have a child as a result of such union. Still we do know so little about WW: they are more human-like than CoTF, yet they appear to be made of ice.. ..are they descendants of some human race? That is likely, since they have too many features typical of humans, unlikely to CoTF as far as I remember.

If magic could be acquired once - by any race or by any human - then it can certainly be acquired twice without the need of odd justifications like interbreeding. Valyrian people did it, Mirri Maz Duur did it, the wizards in Qarth did it.. and so on. The same can hold for Starks, and like for Targaryens, once unlocked the acquired magical potential can be passed through lineage.

[The Sleeper]

Given the description of the CoTF, I don't think that this is the result of interbreeding. They are completely different from human race, hence genetically incompatible

It is fantasy series. If Martin wants to make interbreeding possible he can simply make it so. Leaf told Bran in Bloodraven's cave that he is a greenseer because of his blood. All his siblings are also skinchangers. Skinchangers appear to be confined to

First Men. It also appears that all the CoTF are skinchangers. Whatever it is seems to pass through the blood. The origin of it doesn't need to be interbreeding. It could be some sort of ritual that bestowed the gift on certain individuals which then passed it along to their descendants.

[danm_999]

Given the description of the CoTF, I don't think that this is the result of interbreeding. They are completely different from human race, hence genetically incompatible.

Are they? We're not totally sure genetics works the way it does in our world, or even if such a thing exists on Planetos.

[Ghost's Shadow]

The only historical known event of this type seems to be the King of Winter though - while he surely attempted to get his icy lady pregnant

Hey, watch out what you're calling the King of Winter. That's the old Starks, not the Night's King.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

It turns out green seeing is just a COTF STD and one if the First men got curious a well, here we are.

[kissdbyfire]

I started a thread a while back about this but now I can't seem to find it...

Here's an outline. Unfortunately, without finding the actual thread the best part is missing: other people's replies.

After years (Decades? Hundreds? Thousands?) of war between the two peoples, the wise of both races prevail and a Pact is made on the Isle of Faces.

AGoT, Bran
The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze. Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.
“There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children’s, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces.

Nothing new there, but... when I think of ‘the wise of both races prevailing’, I think of some form of negotiation going on before they actually prevail. The war was hard for both, but we know the CotF were dying in greater numbers. I think the FM, despite their superior numbers and weapons, must have been very afraid of the CotF. For example, they may have witnessed skinchanging, even if they didn’t have a name for it yet and/or weren’t fully aware of what exactly it was. And maybe that’s what they asked for at the ‘negotiation table’, or the CotF themselves used it as a bargaining chip; I’m more inclined to go with the former.

Of course this is all pure speculation. Nonetheless, I was also thinking if the CotF would have restricted this ‘gift’ to some FM only or not, and I think they probably would. The descendants of those who were left out might still have a serious grievance; and yes, of course I’m thinking Bolton. :D

A couple of observations:

- I think some northern sigils are connected to all this

- I think the bestowing of this ‘gift’ by the CotF to the FM was implemented through some sort of mixing the gene pools either through intermarriage or some other mean

[mindchap]

It turns out green seeing is just a COTF STD and one if the First men got curious a well, here we are.

That's just too funny not to be true.

I have to admit on my first read through Old Nan and the Ghost of Highheart stuck out as hybrids to me until Bran reached the cave, then I started thinking(or maybe hoping) that the connection was made some other way. Because from the tales we hear throughout most of the story I pictured something more like just a diminutive race of humans, but Leaf and Co are something totally different.

I started a thread a while back about this but now I can't seem to find it...

Here's an outline. Unfortunately, without finding the actual thread the best part is missing: other people's replies.

After years (Decades? Hundreds? Thousands?) of war between the two peoples, the wise of both races prevail and a Pact is made on the Isle of Faces.

AGoT, Bran

The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze. Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.

“There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children’s, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces.

Nothing new there, but... when I think of ‘the wise of both races prevailing’, I think of some form of negotiation going on before they actually prevail. The war was hard for both, but we know the CotF were dying in greater numbers. I think the FM, despite their superior numbers and weapons, must have been very afraid of the CotF. For example, they may have witnessed skinchanging, even if they didn’t have a name for it yet and/or weren’t fully aware of what exactly it was. And maybe that’s what they asked for at the ‘negotiation table’, or the CotF themselves used it as a bargaining chip; I’m more inclined to go with the former.

Of course this is all pure speculation. Nonetheless, I was also thinking if the CotF would have restricted this ‘gift’ to some FM only or not, and I think they probably would. The descendants of those who were left out might still have a serious grievance; and yes, of course I’m thinking Bolton. :D

A couple of observations:

- I think some northern sigils are connected to all this

- I think the bestowing of this ‘gift’ by the CotF to the FM was implemented through some sort of mixing the gene pools either through intermarriage or some other mean

I'm beginning to wonder if some of these topics and such aren't getting the axe because I could have sworn there was something on the SSMs where GRRM was asked about the Isle of Faces but I can't find anything about it or the Godseye. I too think something was done to connect the species other than the obvious.

[kissdbyfire]

But why would they get the axe? :wideeyed:

[mindchap]

But why would they get the axe? :wideeyed:

Actually I was just kidding but now you have me wondering......