they were protecting jon. From what? (TOJ)

[Tywin Manderly]

They are not KG.

Jaime is of the Kingsguard and therefore in charge of the other forces in the Red Keep that provide the royal family with security. It should be quite obvious that the royal family for their protection does not rely on the Kingsguard alone.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

1. Who will tell her? It's too late for GRRM to introduce such an integral character in the book, someone he hasn't even mentioned. And HR telling her is extremely unlikely...

2. I wonder why you leave out the part where you said "Rhaegar absented Aerys's overriding orders". Your argument gives more credit that R's lingering order is more important than protecting the king foremost.

3. My point 2.

1. I assume Dany (and everyone else) is going to find out somehow. If the issue of succession comes up, Dany has an easy way of dismissing Jon. Just because J. Stargaryen's scenario of it coming up doesn't fit your preconceived idea of why it would, it doesn't make it invalid.

2. I'm not sure why you're quoting "Rhaegar absented Aerys's overriding orders" when that isn't a direct quote of mine. The only ORDER that Aerys gave any of those three men that has anything to do with Lyanna/ToJ that we know of was for Gerold to track down Rhaegar, which he did. I think you're getting orders confused with PROTECTION. If Viserys is the king, they have an obligation to protect him even if he hasn't given them a direct order. They are free to follow Rhaegar's orders precisely because Aerys is already under the protection of the other KG. Gerold fulfills the order Aerys gave him by tracking down Rhaegar and sending him back. Rhaegar orders the men to stay at the Tower, which they do because Aerys isn't there to give an overriding order (this is, I assume, where the bungled quote mentioned above comes in). Rhaegar rides off, dies and then Aerys and Aegon die in the Sack. The three men still at the ToJ find out that those three male Targs are dead. If Viserys is the king, Rhaegar's orders at that point are VOID because the king is unprotected, and the king's protection trumps the dead prince's order. But the men don't go to Viserys, they stay at the Tower, and claim to Ned that they're fulfilling their vows by doing so. The only way that makes sense, given what they know, is if Jon is the king at that point.

That is literally the simplest way I can explain it. I don't know what else to tell you except that at this point, your confusion is really your problem, not mine.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

By using polygamy as his means to marry Lyanna, Rhaegar will turn the entire Dorne, King Aerys, Robert Baratheon, his siblings (since Viserys and Dany are originally the second in claim to IT after Aegon and Rhaenys), the Faith and septons, and possibly most of Westeros against Lyanna and himself. And I doubt it highly unlikely that Rhaegar foresaw this happening.

Which means it must have been goddamn important for him to commit the polygamy, to risk all of that. Which makes total sense if he thought he was fathering one of the eventual saviors of mankind.

And actually Viserys comes before Rhaenys in the succession. Piddly thing but if you're going to argue this stuff, it helps to get it right.

[Tywin Manderly]

By using polygamy as his means to marry Lyanna, Rhaegar will turn the entire Dorne, King Aerys, Robert Baratheon, his siblings (since Viserys and Dany are originally the second in claim to IT after Aegon and Rhaenys), the Faith and septons, and possibly most of Westeros against Lyanna and himself. And I doubt it highly unlikely that Rhaegar foresaw this happening.

Rhaegar was too arrogant, entitled and obsessed with the prophecy to care about that. Furthermore, he also did not forsee that him eloping with Lyanna would lead to Robert's Rebellion and the end of Targaryen rule.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Rhaegar was too arrogant, entitled and obsessed with the prophecy to care about that. Furthermore, he also did not forsee that him eloping with Lyanna would lead to Robert's Rebellion and the end of Targaryen rule.

This reminds me ... A friendly reminder that the war and rebellion itself didn't actually start until Aerys had murdered the Starks and their men and Arryn had called his banners. Rhaegar might have thought he could talk or negotiate his way out of consequences, but something tells me he couldn't quite have foreseen Brandon riding up demanding that he come out and die, and then Aerys's subsequent nutcase actions.

[Dany Girl]

This reminds me ... A friendly reminder that the war and rebellion itself didn't actually start until Aerys had murdered the Starks and their men and Arryn had called his banners. Rhaegar might have thought he could talk or negotiate his way out of consequences, but something tells me he couldn't quite have foreseen Brandon riding up demanding that he come out and die, and then Aerys's subsequent nutcase actions.

Very true. Rhaegar's abduction did not start a war. No great lords are going to go to war over some chick.

Brandon's inability to act diplomatically (you don't charge into the palace demanding the head of the crowned prince no matter what he did), combined with Aerys' s over reaction of burning a LP alive and calling for the heads of 2 more LPs (Robert and now Ned) is what sparked the rebellion.

[Pingslayer]

Jaime is of the Kingsguard and therefore in charge of the other forces in the Red Keep that provide the royal family with security. It should be quite obvious that the royal family for their protection does not rely on the Kingsguard alone.

We know that Aerys sent two KG to accompany Rhaegar at the Battle of the Trident and sent another KG to command a Dornish troop even when Rhaegar already had an army. This makes Aerys more vulnerable than Rhaegar, as he has only has an army and one KG. KG symbolizes safety, but Aerys did not even get much.

1. I assume Dany (and everyone else) is going to find out somehow. If the issue of succession comes up, Dany has an easy way of dismissing Jon. Just because J. Stargaryen's scenario of it coming up doesn't fit your preconceived idea of why it would, it doesn't make it invalid.

2. I'm not sure why you're quoting "Rhaegar absented Aerys's overriding orders" when that isn't a direct quote of mine. The only ORDER that Aerys gave any of those three men that has anything to do with Lyanna/ToJ that we know of was for Gerold to track down Rhaegar, which he did. I think you're getting orders confused with PROTECTION. If Viserys is the king, they have an obligation to protect him even if he hasn't given them a direct order. They are free to follow Rhaegar's orders precisely because Aerys is already under the protection of the other KG. Gerold fulfills the order Aerys gave him by tracking down Rhaegar and sending him back. Rhaegar orders the men to stay at the Tower, which they do because Aerys isn't there to give an overriding order (this is, I assume, where the bungled quote mentioned above comes in). Rhaegar rides off, dies and then Aerys and Aegon die in the Sack. The three men still at the ToJ find out that those three men are dead. If Viserys is the king, Rhaegar's orders at that point are VOID because the king is unprotected, and the king's protection trumps the dead prince's order. But the men don't go to Viserys, they stay at the Tower, and claim to Ned that they're fulfilling their vows by doing so. The only way that makes sense, given what they know, is if Jon is the king at that point.

That is literally the simplest way I can explain it. I don't know what else to tell you except that at this point, your confusion is really your problem, not mine.

1. And just because you propose there may be a scenario that tells Dany of Jon's history, it doesn't make the phrase invalid either.

2. It is a direct quote of yours.

As for them not leaving when Rhaegar did, Rhaegar probably ordered them to stay put and absent an overriding order from Aerys,they did. But that still doesn't explain why they stayed at the Tower when they knew that Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were all dead.

I hope you remember what you wrote.

3. How many times do I need to say this? If the king's protection was the most important thing to them, Rhaegar would have dispatched the KG to KL as they knew Aerys and most royalties were only protected by one kingsguard. However, they did not, because of Rhaegar's orders. So we can deduce that in this case, they deemed that R's commands were most important. They were bound to his command no matter what.

In the text, they know that Viserys is safe under Willem Darry. They call him a good, true man but does not go protect Viserys, just like they did not go protect Aerys. And this is because of the command.

[Ygrain]

Oh, wonderful, now it's not just "why the KG were at ToJ" but "Who started the Rebellion", as well. Somehow, I have the nagging suspicion that the latter might turn out as disastrously as the former.

I see that my military analogy was kinda ignored, so I'll repeat it just because:

The first duty to protect the king is like a standing order of highest priority for the KG unit. It trumps any orders by any commanding staff except the king himself but it allows assigning some KG to other tasks as long as at least one of them is with the king. At the moment when the king is left without KG but there are still some alive, they are in dereliction of duty if they do not go to him to protect him.

[Lady Sharya]

2. I wonder why you leave out the part where you said "Rhaegar absented Aerys's overriding orders". Your argument gives more credit that R's lingering order is more important than protecting the king foremost.

You misunderstood what she wrote...

As for them not leaving when Rhaegar did, Rhaegar probably ordered them to stay put and absent an overriding order from Aerys, they did. But that still doesn't explain why they stayed at the Tower when they knew that Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were all dead.

Translation= Rhaegar probably ordered them to stay put and BECAUSE there was no overriding order from Aerys, they stayed put.

[Pingslayer]

You misunderstood what she wrote...

Translation= Rhaegar probably ordered them to stay put and BECAUSE there was no overriding order from Aerys, so they stayed put.

Okay my bad.

The first duty to protect the king is like a standing order of highest priority for the KG unit. It trumps any orders by any commanding staff except the king himself but it allows assigning some KG to other tasks as long as at least one of them is with the king. At the moment when the king is left without KG but there are still some alive, they are in dereliction of duty if they do not go to him to protect him.

However, if they were true KGs to the bone, they would have known that Jaime was the only one left to protect Aerys, Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon, Rhaella, pregnant Viserys and all of the KL, and realized that KL needed more KG to protect them.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

1. And just because you propose there may be a scenario that tells Dany of Jon's history, it doesn't make the phrase invalid either.

2. It is a direct quote of yours.

I hope you remember what you wrote.

3. How many times do I need to say this? If the king's protection was the most important thing to them, Rhaegar would have dispatched the KG to KL as they knew Aerys and most royalties were only protected by one kingsguard. However, they did not, because of Rhaegar's orders. So we can deduce that in this case, they deemed that R's commands were most important. They were bound to his command no matter what.

In the text, they know that Viserys is safe under Willem Darry. They call him a good, true man but does not go protect Viserys, just like they did not go protect Aerys. And this is because of the command.

1. At the absolute least, neither of us can use the "lovers/bastards" line as proof of anything without knowing if/how it will matter. Luckily for me, my argument isn't predicated on it.

2. No it is not. "Rhaegar absented Aerys's overriding orders" =/= "absent an overriding order from Aerys," which is my actual direct quote. Please don't insult me by attributing an atrociously written sentence to me when I didn't write it, thanks. The way your (fake) quote is written makes it look like Rhaegar voided Aerys's orders, and I have never said any such thing.

Ultimately it was Rhaegar's call to make whether they went back, not theirs. Going to Aerys would have only been a necessity, according to their vow, if Aerys had been completely unprotected. Which he was not, as has been established at least a dozen times. Because Aerys was protected by a KG, they were still compelled to follow Rhaegar's orders. Viserys was not protected by a KG, and that's the difference. How is it that difficult to understand that Aerys being protected by KG is not the same thing as Viserys not being protected by KG? Aerys also had hundreds of goldcloaks and other household guards with him in addition to Jaime and the other KG before they would have left. Viserys had far fewer protectors at his disposal.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

However, if they were true KGs to the bone, they would have known that Jaime was the only one left to protect Aerys, Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon, Rhaella, pregnant Viserys and all of the KL, and realized that KL needed more KG to protect them.

Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon, Rhaella and Viserys ultimately don't matter in the context of the guys at the ToJ, because all of them are ultimately beneath Rhaegar on the totem pole. The only one who can trump Rhaegar is Aerys. Because Aerys isn't at the ToJ to give the men contradictory orders, they follow Rhaegar's orders to stay, which they are able to do because they know that Aerys is protected by at least one KG and hundreds if not thousands of guards. If Aerys doesn't have any KG protection, it's a different story. But he did.

[Ygrain]

However, if they were true KGs to the bone, they would have known that Jaime was the only one left to protect Aerys, Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon, Rhaella, pregnant Viserys and all of the KL, and realized that KL needed more KG to protect them.

Ah. So the idea did sink in, after all?

Well, it seems that Rhaegar didn't deem it necessary to inform them that he was taking the other three KG with him to the Trident.

[mambru]

Which means it must have been goddamn important for him to commit the polygamy, to risk all of that. Which makes total sense if he thought he was fathering one of the eventual saviors of mankind.

Again, polygamy wasn't necessary to father one of the eventual saviors of mankind. It's just an unnecessary complication that would alienate some of the few factions Rhaegar hasn't already alienated by his actions - the Faith (who don't approve of polygamy, and Rhaegar has no dragons or a united kingdom to make them take it and like it), and the Dornish - who've stayed faithful to the Targaryens till now, but that could be the last straw. They're fine with concubines and bastards, but they're NOT polygamists...and taking Lyanna as a second wife would give Elia Martell's son a legitimate rival to the throne and knock Rhaenys her daughter further back in the succession. The last thing Rhaegar needs is to alienate MORE people than he's already alienated. Which is why it puzzles me when so many insist on no evidence that R must have married L.

Rhaegar might have thought he could talk or negotiate his way out of consequences, but something tells me he couldn't quite have foreseen Brandon riding up demanding that he come out and die, and then Aerys's subsequent nutcase actions.

Aerys being a nutcase didn't just suddenly happen - he's canonically been going nuts for quite awhile - and Rhaegar, living with him in the Keep, HAD to know that. I can't see why Rhaegar would blithely decide that his loony dad could be trusted not to catastrophically mishandle the delicate situation Rhaegar was creating when he ran off with one Lord Paramount's daughter who was betrothed to ANOTHER Lord Paramount, thus insulting his in-law (another Lord Paramount), when Aerys had ALREADY alienated yet ANOTHER Lord Paramount (Tywin) for no good reason at all.

The only explanation that makes any sense to me is that Rhaegar was in the manic phase of bipolar disorder and felt that nothing could really go wrong, cuz he was the divinely appointed Man of Destiny.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

A question for you Pingslayer; why do you suppose GRRM had Ned dream about the events at ToJ? If this wasn't to let the reader know that the circumstances surrounding Jon's birth were important and a vital clue for us, why did he write it?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Again, polygamy wasn't necessary to father one of the eventual saviors of mankind. It's just an unnecessary complication that would alienate some of the few factions Rhaegar hasn't already alienated by his actions - the Faith (who don't approve of polygamy, and Rhaegar has no dragons or a united kingdom to make them take it and like it), and the Dornish - who've stayed faithful to the Targaryens till now, but that could change easily. They're fine with concubines and bastards, but they're NOT polygamists...and taking Lyanna as a second wife would give Elia Martell's son a rival to the throne and knock Rhaenys her daughter further back in the succession. The last thing Rhaegar needs is to alienate MORE people than he's already alienated. Which is why it puzzles me when so many insist on no evidence that R must have married L.

Aerys being a nutcase didn't just suddenly happen - he's canonically been going nuts for quite awhile - and Rhaegar, living with him in the Keep, HAD to know that. I can't see why Rhaegar would blithely decide that his loony dad could be trusted not to catastrophically mishandle the delicate situation Rhaegar was creating when he ran off with one Lord Paramount's daughter who was betrothed to ANOTHER Lord Paramount, thus insulting his in-law (another Lord Paramount), when his father had ALREADY alienated yet ANOTHER Lord Paramount (Tywin) for no good reason at all.

The only explanation that makes any sense to me is that Rhaegar was in the manic phase of bipolar and felt that nothing could really go wrong, cuz he was the divinely appointed Man of Destiny.

There is no way in hell that Rhaegar would allow one of the three heads of the dragon to be a baseborn bastard. It just does not fit anything we know about him or that we're told about him. Maybe he was nuts and that's why he married her, who knows. But just because it seems crazy to you now doesn't invalidate it and it doesn't mean that in his mind Rhaegar didn't have a good reason to do it.

Aerys being a nutcase didn't suddenly just happen, but given how shocked everyone was by what he did, it suggests that it was a pretty marked step up into fruitcake-ville beyond where he'd been up to that point.

A question for you Pingslayer; why do you suppose GRRM had Ned dream about the events at ToJ? If this wasn't to let the reader know that the circumstances surrounding Jon's birth were important and a vital clue for us, why did he write it?

A very good question indeed. Nothing is throwaway after all. Yes, why have Ned have that convo with them at all? Why show that they knew exactly what had happened? Why have them invoke the vow?

[Lady Sharya]

However, if they were true KGs to the bone, they would have known that Jaime was the only one left to protect Aerys, Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon, Rhaella, pregnant Viserys and all of the KL, and realized that KL needed more KG to protect them.

This is where I think you may be getting stuck in seeing the logic of this argument:

1. You are assuming they had up-to-the-minute intell which they did not. The Tower of Joy was at least a 2 week trek, and since they had no Maester, I doubt they were receiving many ravens.

2. You are not taking in to consideration that the Red Keep had ample support for one Kingsguard to protect Aerys, Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon, NOT pregnant Rhaella, & Viserys. Who knew Lanisters were going to sack the city when Aerys OPENED the gates...leaving them vulnerable.

[Pingslayer]

1. At the absolute least, neither of us can use the "lovers/bastards" line as proof of anything without knowing if/how it will matter. Luckily for me, my argument isn't predicated on it.

Ultimately it was Rhaegar's call to make whether they went back, not theirs. Going to Aerys would have only been a necessity, according to their vow, if Aerys had been completely unprotected. Which he was not, as has been established at least a dozen times. Because Aerys was protected by a KG, they were still compelled to follow Rhaegar's orders. Viserys was not protected by a KG, and that's the difference. How is it that difficult to understand that Aerys being protected by KG is not the same thing as Viserys not being protected by KG? Aerys also had hundreds of goldcloaks and other household guards with him in addition to Jaime and the other KG before they would have left. Viserys had far fewer protectors at his disposal.

1. I've pointed out the cases where background info foreshadows a crucial event in my previous post. And GRRM is a master of this. It is very likely that he will use it for something.

Also, given that GRRM loves to mirror an occurrence to another (while making the mirroring scenarios not exactly the same thing), it is possible that Jon's bastard-of-Rhaegar position can be used to mirror the Blackfyre Rebellion.

2. We know that Lyanna and her child was getting protection of 3 KG, while Aerys, Elia, Aegon, Rhaenys, Viserys, pregnant Rhaella were having only 1 KG. And does it say in the book that Aerys had his own army at Red Keep? No. Shown that Aerys dispatched most of the KG present to the Battle of the Trident, he probably sent most of his forces to the BOTT as well.

A question for you Pingslayer; why do you suppose GRRM had Ned dream about the events at ToJ? If this wasn't to let the reader know that the circumstances surrounding Jon's birth were important and a vital clue for us, why did he write it?

I believe Jon turning out to be Rhaegar's bastard is a crucial point to the story.

Well, it seems that Rhaegar didn't deem it necessary to inform them that he was taking the other three KG with him to the Trident.

Not a strong possibility.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Again, polygamy wasn't necessary to father one of the eventual saviors of mankind. It's just an unnecessary complication that would alienate some of the few factions Rhaegar hasn't already alienated by his actions - the Faith (who don't approve of polygamy, and Rhaegar has no dragons or a united kingdom to make them take it and like it), and the Dornish - who've stayed faithful to the Targaryens till now, but that could be the last straw. They're fine with concubines and bastards, but they're NOT polygamists...and taking Lyanna as a second wife would give Elia Martell's son a legitimate rival to the throne and knock Rhaenys her daughter further back in the succession. The last thing Rhaegar needs is to alienate MORE people than he's already alienated. Which is why it puzzles me when so many insist on no evidence that R must have married L.

The Dornish don't have a big issue with bastards but the rest of Westeros does. Bastards are regarded as treacherous. People do not trust them. Roose even excuses the sack of Winterfell by pointing out that Ramsay is a bastard and that's just how bastards roll. Polygamy isn't practiced by anyone but the Targs, but there isn't evidence that it freaks people out either. It wouldn't be that big of a surprise to see a Targ take it up again.

As to the logic of Rhaegar risking the ire of the Martells, remember he's a Targaryen. They aren't known for making the best life choices are they?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

1. I've pointed out the cases where background info foreshadows a crucial event in my previous post. And GRRM is a master of this. It is very likely that he will use it for something.

Also, given that GRRM loves to mirror an occurrence to another (while making the mirroring scenarios not exactly the same thing), it is possible that Jon's bastard-of-Rhaegar position can be used to mirror the Blackfyre Rebellion.

2. We know that Lyanna and her child was getting protection of 3 KG, while Aerys, Elia, Aegon, Rhaenys, Viserys, pregnant Rhaella were having only 1 KG. And does it say in the book that Aerys had his own army at Red Keep? No. Shown that Aerys dispatched most of the KG present to the Battle of the Trident, he probably sent most of his forces to the BOTT as well.

1. So answer Weirwood's question about GRRM showing Ned's dream at the Tower. Is that not strongly suggestive of something? (Yes, and it sure as shit isn't Jon being a bastard.) We also don't need Jon to mirror the Blackfyre Rebellion when fake Aegon is going to do it nicely and is probably an actual Blackfyre to boot.

2. The people in the Red Keep had household guards and goldcloaks guarding the city. Not an "army" (and I never used that word; stop misquoting me, thanks), but a substantial number of protectors. Lyanna had absolutely no one else. It's not the same thing. You talk about who Aerys sent to the Trident while ignoring the fact that, again, the men at the ToJ in all likelihood didn't know what had happened at the Trident (including who had gone and who had died) until AFTER it (and the Sack) had already occurred. You can't judge the guys' actions based on the Trident when they couldn't possibly have known what was going to happen.

Oh and also, Rhaella wouldn't have been pregnant then, as Sharya pointed out. As I said also, ALL of those people except Aerys are OUTRANKED by Rhaegar. So saying "well so and so and so and so and so" is completely moot.