they were protecting jon. From what? (TOJ)

[Ygrain]

The text shows that there was only one KG present beside Aerys, who is the most important figure to the KGs. Thus every KG must be protecting the king according to their vow. However three of them were dispatched by Aerys to support Rhaegar at the Battle,and the other three of them were not beside him, but was present near Lyanna and her baby. According to their oath, these three were all supposed to be protecting the king, but they were not. It shows that the positioning of the KGs does not determine the importance of a person they are protecting, but shows their adherence to their royalties' commands. Aerys ordered some to be at the BOT, Rhaegar ordered some to be at TOJ. Thus, these KGs were bound to the order, not by what they thought was most honourable which was protecting Aegon and Aerys instead.

See what I wrote above.

You really fail to grasp that the KG can be assigned to other tasks as long as at least one of them protects the king, right?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

The text shows that there was only one KG present beside Aerys, who is the most important figure to the KGs. Thus every KG must be protecting the king according to their vow. However three of them were dispatched by Aerys to support Rhaegar at the Battle,and the other three of them were not beside him, but was present near Lyanna and her baby. According to their oath, these three were all supposed to be protecting the king, but they were not. It shows that the positioning of the KGs does not determine the importance of a person they are protecting, but shows their adherence to their royalties' commands. Aerys ordered some to be at the BOT, Rhaegar ordered some to be at TOJ. Thus, these KGs were bound to the order, not by what they thought was most honourable which was protecting Aegon and Aerys instead.

Do you know the contents of the Kingsguard oath? Please share with the class.

Also, what Ygrain said.

[Cripper]

Ser Gerold was sent to the toj by Aerys to find Rhaegar and get him to return to lead the Royal Army and deal with the rebellion. He must have been commanded by Rhaegar to stay at the toj.

Ser Arthur and Ser Oswell seem to have been guarding Rhaegar for an extended period helping him 'kidnap' Lyanna. I believe they may have been heavily influenced by Rhaegar's belief in the PTWP prophesy they will defend the baby because of this and Rhaegars last orders. The birth may have taken place during the batttle as Ned hears Lyanna screaming and if it had taken place earlier then surely there would be servants to look after a seriously ill mother and baby(or babies).

[Pingslayer]

You really fail to grasp that the KG can be assigned to other tasks as long as at least one of them protects the king, right?

Do you know the contents of the Kingsguard oath? Please share with the class.

Also, what Ygrain said.

I can answer all of you using this.

THis is the Kingsguard Oath shown in ADWD by Barristan Selmy:

The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to obey the king's commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and keep silent when it was not, serve his pleasure and defend his name and honor. Strictly speaking, it was purely the king's choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of the royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater and lesser degree, and occasionally even their lovers, mistresses and bastards.

This basically gives the proof that their first duty is to defend the king. They also must "obey", which means that the KGs at TOJ should still obey Rhaegar by protecting Lyanna even if it meant not being able to save others.

Also, they are dispatched to defend even the royalty's lovers and bastards.

I think this basically ends the discussion.

[RoamingRonin]

Here's another thing that bothers me. If staying with the crown prince's mistress when the king was elsewhere was as obviously wrong for a knight of the KG as you guys seem to think, shouldn't the whole of Westeros have agreed with you, and wondered why the TOJ three didn't go to Viserys? Shouldn't they have started thinking... and maybe figured out that Ned's supposed bastard was actually Rhaegar and Lyanna's? Shouldn't they, at least, have a much lower opinion of the TOJ three? What little we see of public opinion reveres the TOJ three as good men and true who kept their oaths, even though the people of Westeros have no idea that R+L=J.

I get your point. Good old honorable Ned comes back from war with what he claims to be his own bastard babe and no one seems to suspect the child might be the product of Lyanna and Rhaegar's romance.

I don't think the public knows as much as we do. There are some characters that know enough to make the right connections but GRRM just hasn't had it happen.

[mambru]

The Kingsguard had absolutely no way to know that Ned wouldn't kill Jon. The son or daughter of Rhaegar Targaryen? You mean the dynasty that Ned just helped eradicate?

Aegon and Rhaenys weren't Ned's kin. Jon certainly was. And there's this whole taboo against kinslaying that honorable men don't usually want to violate. I'd say the KG negotiating with Ned to see if he would spare and hide the baby was at least worth a try.

My interpretation is that Rhaegar ordered the three to stay with Lyanna and guard her no matter what, probably using a phrase like "die before you let anyone touch her" and because Aerys wasn't present they were bound by oath to obey the crown prince. So they did what they did because they'd been ordered to, even though it made no sense and they knew it. Because oath. Honor. You know how it is.

Yep, that's what it looks like to me too.

Even if Ned can be persuaded to raise Jon and keep his secret (which Lyanna managed to do, barely), this is in no way acceptable to the KG who don't want Jon oblivious of his heritage but to raise him as the next Targaryen king who takes back his throne when he's old enough (much like Viserys would have liked to do). Ned however could never allow that, as it would give the faction he just won a war against the reason and rallying point for the next big war.

Ned came riding up with six friends. There are THREE of the Kingsguard left. Odds are, all of them may not survive the fight...and the baby's uncle, an honorable man, may help them hide the baby so he can live to grow up - a very important point, because dead babies can't be king.

Getting Ned on their side, IMO, is the best chance the baby has for survival. Killing Ned (if none of the KG survive Ned's friends) will ensure the baby's death. The KG tries to kill Ned anyway, because he won't actively help the baby become king. To me that looks like a bizarre example of the perfect being the enemy of the good. It's so bizarre that to me it MUST be that the KG was following Rhaegar's orders to the letter even though they didn't make sense under the circumstances, because that's what honor means to them.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I can answer all of you using this.

THis is the Kingsguard Oath shown in ADWD by Barristan Selmy:

This basically gives the proof that their first duty is to defend the king. They also must "obey", which means that the KGs at TOJ should still obey Rhaegar by protecting Lyanna even if it meant not being able to save others.

Also, they are dispatched to defend even the royalty's lovers and bastards.

I think this basically ends the discussion.

Seriously, you think that's never come up before?

Discussion is over for me because it's become pointless arguing in circles.

Check out the RLJ thread one day. You may find some insight there.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This basically gives the proof that their first duty is to defend the king. They also must "obey", which means that the KGs at TOJ should still obey Rhaegar by protecting Lyanna even if it meant not being able to save others.

Also, they are dispatched to defend even the royalty's lovers and bastards.

I think this basically ends the discussion.

It doesn't end shit, sorry.

They can be dispatched to protect lovers and bastards so long as the king is still protected. If Viserys is the king -- and if Jon is a bastard, Viserys is the king -- then he has no Kingsguard protection while they're at the Tower. That's a problem and that is the entire point. They know Viserys is unprotected, but they don't seem to care. Why? Because Viserys isn't the king.

Whatever orders Rhaegar may have given them do not trump the protection of the living king. At the absolute bare minimum, one or two of them should have gone to Viserys. But they didn't. Why didn't they? Because Viserys wasn't the king.

To be blunt it is borderline embarrassing how difficult it is to get this concept to sink in. You people can throw the "lovers and bastards" thing around all you want, but it doesn't matter until you grasp that that is SECONDARY to protecting the king. Rhaegar's lover and bastard would not come before Viserys, if Viserys is the king. For them to still be at the Tower and to still claim to be upholding their Kingsguard vows can only mean that Viserys is not the king and that the king they're protecting is at the Tower there with them, and it's Jon.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I can answer all of you using this.

THis is the Kingsguard Oath shown in ADWD by Barristan Selmy:

This basically gives the proof that their first duty is to defend the king. They also must "obey", which means that the KGs at TOJ should still obey Rhaegar by protecting Lyanna even if it meant not being able to save others.

Also, they are dispatched to defend even the royalty's lovers and bastards.

I think this basically ends the discussion.

But it states that the first duty is to protect the king.

[mambru]

I was just thinking - when Rhaegar knocked up Lyanna (to put it romantically), he wasn't trying to engender a king. In his mind, Aegon was his son and heir - he was just trying for the third head of the dragon (which sounds rather dirty, in this context). Why are people assuming that he MARRIED Lyanna for this? Is it just because Rhaegar was oh-so-honorable that we assume he couldn't possibly have just had sex without marrying Lyanna?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I was just thinking - when Rhaegar knocked up Lyanna (to put it romantically), he wasn't trying to engender a king. In his mind, Aegon was his son and heir - he was just trying for the third head of the dragon (which sounds rather dirty, in this context). Why are people assuming that he MARRIED Lyanna for this? Is it just because Rhaegar was oh-so-honorable that we assume he couldn't possibly have just had sex without marrying Lyanna?

If he didn't marry Lyanna it wouldn't make sense why the KG were at the TOJ. ^_^

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I was just thinking - when Rhaegar knocked up Lyanna (to put it romantically), he wasn't trying to engender a king. In his mind, Aegon was his son and heir - he was just trying for the third head of the dragon (which sounds rather dirty, in this context). Why are people assuming that he MARRIED Lyanna for this? Is it just because Rhaegar was oh-so-honorable that we assume he couldn't possibly have just had sex without marrying Lyanna?

I think it was a combination of:

1. Him actually being in love with her and her being in love with him. Given her attitude toward Robert it also seems possible that she attached marriage as a condition of running off with him.

2. Him wanting all of his children -- the three heads of the dragon, in his mind -- to be legitimate. You really believe he'd think a bastard could be a head of the dragon? I don't.

It's also possible that by the time they eloped, Rhaegar had shifted the PTWP prediction from Aegon to whatever child he might have with Lyanna, especially if he rethought the Ice and Fire angle and thought he had to have a child with a Stark. Similar to #2, it beggars belief that he'd allow such a child to be a bastard.

[mambru]

He could always legitimize the child once he's king. That would seem to me a lot more practical than alienating the Faith by insisting on a polygamous marriage. (Though it seems that while Rhaegar had many fine qualities, practicality wasn't among them).

Given her attitude toward Robert it also seems possible that she attached marriage as a condition of running off with him.

So would it have made Robert's cheating okay if he'd married every extramarital lay till he had as many wives as Solomon? Seems a bit hypocritical of Lyanna to absolve herself and Rhaegar of the title of "cheater" that way. Do the Old Gods that Lyanna believed in allow polygamy?

[The guy from the Vale]

He could always legitimize the child once he's king. That would seem to me a lot more practical than alienating the Faith by insisting on a polygamous marriage. (Though it seems that while Rhaegar had many fine qualities, practicality wasn't among them).

So would it have made Robert's cheating okay if he'd married every extramarital lay till he had as many wives as Solomon? Seems a bit hypocritical of Lyanna to absolve herself of the title of "cheater" that way. Do the Old Gods that Lyanna believed in allow polygamy?

Because legitimizing bastards worked out so nicely for the Targs in the past... no, creating facts in the ground from the start was the more responsible move. The faith was weak under Targaryen rule anyway - they only became a powerhouse under Cersei again.

Well, polygamy was legal for Targaryens. A Baratheon would have had even more trouble establishing such a pattern. The Targs were seen as above the laws of gods and men. The Baratheons... not so much.

[Pingslayer]

It doesn't end shit, sorry.

They can be dispatched to protect lovers and bastards so long as the king is still protected. If Viserys is the king -- and if Jon is a bastard, Viserys is the king -- then he has no Kingsguard protection while they're at the Tower. That's a problem and that is the entire point. They know Viserys is unprotected, but they don't seem to care. Why? Because Viserys isn't the king.

Whatever orders Rhaegar may have given them do not trump the protection of the living king. At the absolute bare minimum, one or two of them should have gone to Viserys. But they didn't. Why didn't they? Because Viserys wasn't the king.

To be blunt it is borderline embarrassing how difficult it is to get this concept to sink in. You people can throw the "lovers and bastards" thing around all you want, but it doesn't matter until you grasp that that is SECONDARY to protecting the king. Rhaegar's lover and bastard would not come before Viserys, if Viserys is the king. For them to still be at the Tower and to still claim to be upholding their Kingsguard vows can only mean that Viserys is not the king and that the king they're protecting is at the Tower there with them, and it's Jon.

Your point does not explain why they had not gone to Aerys in the first place in the beginning of RR. Their first duty is the protect the king, but why leave only Jaime to protect all of Aerys, Elia, Aegon, and Rhaella by himself, when Aegon is yet alive and still is the rightful heir?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

He could always legitimize the child once he's king. That would seem to me a lot more practical than alienating the Faith by insisting on a polygamous marriage. (Though it seems that while Rhaegar had many fine qualities, practicality wasn't among them).

So would it have made Robert's cheating okay if he'd married every extramarital lay till he had as many wives as Solomon? Seems a bit hypocritical of Lyanna to absolve herself and Rhaegar of the title of "cheater" that way. Do the Old Gods that Lyanna believed in allow polygamy?

What's easier: Legitimizing his child later or marrying the child's mother so that the child is legitimate from birth? He would want his children to have the same legal standing.

As the poster above me said, polygamy seems to have been a Targaryen practice. So the Baratheon thing is irrelevant.

[Pingslayer]

Where is the third dragon then.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Your point does not explain why they had not gone to Aerys in the first place in the beginning of RR. Their first duty is the protect the king, but why leave only Jaime to protect all of Aerys, Elia, Aegon, and Rhaella by himself, when Aegon is yet alive and still is the rightful heir?

Because up until the Sack and Trident, there were FOUR OTHER GUYS doing the same job. It wasn't "only Jaime." It was Jaime, Barristan, Jonothor Darry and Lewyn Martell. There was also Gerold Hightower, until he left for the Tower of Joy. The only two guys who seem to have been with Rhaegar (who as the crown prince merits the most protection after Aerys) from the beginning were Arthur and Oswell.

It wasn't "only Jaime" until after the Trident, and given the isolation of the Tower and how closely the Sack followed the Trident, it seems quite likely that the guys at the Tower didn't know anything about what had happened until it had already happened. If they received word that Barristan was wounded and that Darry and Martell were dead and only Jaime was with Aerys, I'm quite certain they would have gone back to King's Landing. But by the time they found out anything useful, it was too late.

The idea that it was always "just Jaime" is completely inaccurate and shows a pretty poor understanding of the material.

Where is the third dragon then.

Bloody obviously Rhaegar was wrong about his interpretation. But we're explaining his mindset based on his interpretation; that doesn't mean the interpretation itself was correct.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

The idea that it was always "just Jaime" is completely inaccurate and shows a pretty poor understanding of the material.

Hear, hear.

[Pingslayer]

Because up until the Sack and Trident, there were FOUR OTHER GUYS doing the same job. It wasn't "only Jaime." It was Jaime, Barristan, Jonothor Darry and Lewyn Martell. There was also Gerold Hightower, until he left for the Tower of Joy. The only two guys who seem to have been with Rhaegar (who as the crown prince merits the most protection after Aerys) from the beginning were Arthur and Oswell.

It wasn't "only Jaime" until after the Trident, and given the isolation of the Tower and how closely the Sack followed the Trident, it seems quite likely that the guys at the Tower didn't know anything about what had happened until it had already happened. If they received word that Barristan was wounded and that Darry and Martell were dead and only Jaime was with Aerys, I'm quite certain they would have gone back to King's Landing. But by the time they found out anything useful, it was too late.

The idea that it was always "just Jaime" is completely inaccurate and shows a pretty poor understanding of the material.

No. Barristan Selmy and Jonothor Darry were not with Aerys even before the Battle of the Trident because they had to help Jon Connington. I see Jaime was not alone, but only accompanied by Martell, who was soon dispatched to the Battle of the Trident.Thus, during the Battle of the Bells, only Jaime and Martell were present in KL to protect Aerys, Elia, Aegon, Rhaella, Viserys, Rhaenys, and only Jaime during the Battle of the Trident to protect every single one of them. Since we know that Rhaegar got involved in the battle after the Battle of the Bells, there were probably informers about them telling what was happening, and KG came to knew that only Jaime and Martell were left in KL during BOTB. However, they did not leave the TOJ to protect Aerys, Aegon and other royalties, which shows that they took the command by Rhaegar more importance. Also, from the fact that the KGs at TOJ knew about how things turned out, we can deduce that there has been informers telling them what was going on. They probably too knew that Jaime was the only one left during the Battle of the Trident.