they were protecting jon. From what? (TOJ)

[Dicer]

You have duty to your guest. You have duty - if you're an idealistic, knightly sort - to protect the innocent and helpless, or at least make an effort not to actively harm them. ALL these duties are honorable, not just the duty to the king. And if those duties conflict - if the king tells you to kill your family, for example - then honor ceases to be black and white and becomes shades of gray. When Ned saw Rhaenys and Aegon slaughtered on the floor, he called it murder and thought it was dishonor to have killed them even though Robert approved of it. If only honor toward your king mattered (as you say) then Ned should have been perfectly okay with that dead baby on the throne room floor if Robert was okay with it. After all, Ned did not love those dead children - he didn't even know them. Why should he care? But he DID care, because he felt that there are some things too vile for even a king's approval to make them honorable.

Whatever, though. I think in this case it doesn't matter whether it's honor or love that causes a man to disobey a king. The fact is, by your own admission, love - love of your family, love of your friend, love of the children you raised - can cause even honorable men to turn against their lieges. Honorable men like Jon Arryn.

If Ned was so bothered by what happened with Rhaenys and Aegon why did he continue to maintain his friendship with Robert? Yes, he protested. He had a fight with Robert and then went on his way and fought Robert's war for him in Storm's end. The North remained part of the 7K. And years later agreed to be his Hand of the King.

Jon Arryn formed close alliances with the Lannisters and Tywin, the man who ordered the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon. Where is the honor in that? Gregor Clegane was probably hanging around KL being a knight. Jaime Lannister, the Kingslayer, was made a KG again.

Ned disapproved of a lot of what Robert and Arryn did (He was not a fan of the Lannisters) but did he have the power to do anything about it? No. He protested, but also accepted. Like in the case with Lady. He killed the direwolf on Robert's orders. He is someone who thinks that following orders is also paramount.

I wonder what Ned would have done if Jon or Benjen deserted the NW while he was alive. Would he have chopped off their heads? I don't know. We know Jon can bend the code to suit his needs. He asked Stannis to use Mance rather than execute him for desertion. I am not so sure about Ned.

I agree that the KG should have tried to talk to Ned and his men instead of just seeing them as enemy rebels and attacking them. But maybe they were not sure of how Ned would react to a Targ baby and decided that offense was the best response. Maybe there is more to the story that GRRM will unravel later on.

As for the KG not leaving the TOJ with Jon, maybe they did not want to separate Jon from his mother and leave Lyanna behind. And she was not in a position to be moved. So they were stuck there. Still, the sensible thing to do (if they wanted to protect the 'king' and follow Rhaegar's order to protect his family) would have been for two of them to leave with Jon while one stayed behind for Lyanna.

[Ygrain]

"Ser Willem is a good man and true" It is likely that they thought he was probably better than a KG.

If you say that someone is a good man BUT, it means that his quality is still not sufficient for what you need him to do or that he has some fault, not that he is better.

Basically, when Jaime killed Aerys, the oath of protecting the king was turned upside down. The KGs came to realize that a king being with KG posed even more danger and didn't even trust one another. They thought instead of letting one go to protect Viserys, it would be better to trust Willem Darry, whom they all know is very honourable, since one of the KG could possibly end up killing Viserys or defect to Robert, like Barristan.

I'm saying this again.

Quote, please? There is nothing in the text to support this assertion.

Neds idea of what makes a "fine knight" is an unquestioning killing machine.

Provide a quote that a moral compass doesn't matter to Ned.

[Han Snow]

If men were more willing to acknowledge that they are wrong (ignorant, stubborn and set in their ways no matter what logic and reason is presented to them), there would not be a single war or conflict on this little planet of ours we call Earth. But more importantly there wouldn't be threads like this with endless pages of people repeating the same damn thing without a shred of logic or a critical and analytical thought in it.

[Pingslayer]

If you say that someone is a good man BUT, it means that his quality is still not sufficient for what you need him to do or that he has some fault, not that he is better.

Quote, please? There is nothing in the text to support this assertion.

Provide a quote that a moral compass doesn't matter to Ned.

How many times do I have to say this? The KGs swore a vow. However, when Jaime kills Aerys and Barristan goes to Robert, they realized that it's not even okay to trust the KGs, and each other anymore. But, they all know one thing that Willem is a very trustworthy person. To prevent a possibility that one of them deflects to Robert, they probably thought it was better to just stay in TOJ.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

If we look at the text, the conversation be interpreted as:

Ned: Viserys is in Dragonstone with Willem. Why don't you guys go?

KG: Willem is a good man. They are fleeing. But KG don't flee. I'm not going because that would be fleeing.

I'm saying this again: it is also extremely likely that Rhaegar gave them orders something like "No matter what happens, you must protect Lyanna". We know that R was too obsessed with TPTWP to even name an heir in case Aegon died, thus he didn't even think about letting them go protect Viserys if something turned awry. He thought he was going to win, and will come back soon to meet his lady love, so he unwittingly made the KGs stay by Lyanna's side, to the end. So still bound to this command, the KGs couldn't leave TOJ.

It's not quoting. I am saying that it is likely. If not, why did the KGs even bother to say "Willem is a good man and true."?

[WhiteOwl18]

This is still going on?

[Consigliere]

How many times do I have to say this? The KGs swore a vow. However, when Jaime kills Aerys and Barristan goes to Robert, they realized that it's not even okay to trust the KGs, and each other anymore. But, they all know one thing that Willem is a very trustworthy person. To prevent a possibility that one of them deflects to Robert, they probably thought it was better to just stay in TOJ.

Just because Jaime murdered Aerys, that in no way implies that the three at the ToJ all of a sudden started questioning each others loyalty.

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

This quote clearly shows that they condemned Jaime's actions. Also, the rest of the exchange between Ned and the three clearly indicates that they were resolute in upholding their primary duty i.e. protect the king.

If we look at the text, the conversation be interpreted as:

Ned: Viserys is in Dragonstone with Willem. Why don't you guys go?

KG: Willem is a good man. They are fleeing. But KG don't flee. I'm not going because that would be fleeing.

I'm saying this again: it is also extremely likely that Rhaegar gave them orders something like "No matter what happens, you must protect Lyanna". We know that R was too obsessed with TPTWP to even name an heir in case Aegon died, thus he didn't even think about letting them go protect Viserys if something turned awry. He thought he was going to win, and will come back soon to meet his lady love, so he unwittingly made the KGs stay by Lyanna's side, to the end. So still bound to this command, the KGs couldn't leave TOJ.

It's not quoting. I am saying that it is likely. If not, why did the KGs even bother to say "Willem is a good man and true."?

Maybe because Ser Oswell considered Ser Willem to be a good and true man. Ser Gerold also points out the he is not of the KG. So it is okay for Darry to flee and still be a good and true man because he is not charged with guarding the king.

Furthermore, it is possible that they were at the ToJ initially at Rhaegar's behest. However, after Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon's deaths; why would they stay at the ToJ? The only logical reason is that they were fulfilling their primary duty. Rhaegar's order does not take precedent over the primary duty of the KG.

The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

This is still going on?

We seem to be taking it in shifts :p

[WhiteOwl18]

We seem to be taking it in shifts :P

You're so right! :D

[Ygrain]

How many times do I have to say this? The KGs swore a vow. However, when Jaime kills Aerys and Barristan goes to Robert, they realized that it's not even okay to trust the KGs, and each other anymore. But, they all know one thing that Willem is a very trustworthy person. To prevent a possibility that one of them deflects to Robert, they probably thought it was better to just stay in TOJ.

Repetition won't make it any more supported by the text. The KG don't need the example of Jaime to know that there have been KG who broke their vows, Hightower as the LC is certainly quite familiar with the White Book. Besides, you're turning it the other way round completely, those three are not feeling inferior to Darry in any way, and there is not a single hint of mistrust among those three. You're grasping at fibres.

[Fae Boleyn]

I don't see how Robb's will is in any way analogous to this. The mistress/bastards thing is background information and the will is an actual pertinent plot point.

I'm not disputing that someone eventually told Rhaegar what had happened. I'm assuming that Rhaegar ordered the men to stay put.

What order did Aerys give them? The only order we know explicitly that Aerys gave any of the three of them was for Gerold to make sure Rhaegar came back ... which Gerold did. As long as Aerys was protected -- and up until Jaime killed him, he was -- they were free to follow whatever order Rhaegar gave them, as long as Aerys didn't override it. Given that Aerys wasn't at the Tower of Joy to override Rhaegar, whatever orders Rhaegar gave, stood. But again, that doesn't explain why they stayed when Viserys should have been the king. The mistress/bastard argument only works until the men find out that the other Targaryens are dead. It falls apart after that.

I'm not contradicting anything. You're the one having an apparently difficult time accepting that what caused the KG to be there in the first place is not necessarily why they were still there when Ned arrived. It's not really that complicated.

Sorry if this already was said - catching up on the conversation - but I think you explained how Rhaegar knew to leave in the first place. Why he knew there was a battle to prep for. There were no informants, not on Rhaegar's side - Varys' little birds are informing on Rhaegar, most likely, which would be how Gerold knew where to go. Gerold is probably the one to show up and basically tell Rhaegar "so, while you've been hiding yourself here this has devolved into civil war so you need to come back to fight now." Up till then Rhaegar, Lyanna, and the KG are dealing with radio silence or close to it.

Which explains how Rhaegar knew he had to go back. As for why Gerold didn't go with him - he had no order to do that, he had orders to make sure Rhaegar came home. It's entirely possible he had to agree to stay to make that happen - which means he had to stay at first in order to fulfill the order Aerys gave him. Depending on when Gerold was sent off, this scenario also explains the "lack of protection for Aegon" deal. Gerold's information regarding how many KG are around to protect the family could easily be out of date.

Or, a more depressing option. The KG are sworn to obey, as has been pointed out - sworn to obey the King above all others if he gives an express order about something. (Which, by the way, their oath is to obey the King without question, not anyone else. So, Rhaegar was still only Crown Prince when he died; this means they are not bound to obey his orders once they know he's dead. So them staying at ToJ just because he told them to is BS.) Aerys considered Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon to be hostages more than part of the royal family. Gerold, as the only one with info even close to up to date, would not be able to tell Arthur and Oswell that one of them, at least, needs to go back up Jaime to protect Aegon. Not if Aerys said Aegon didn't require one.

I think it's far more likely Gerold set out before all the KG but Jaime were gone from KL, had to stay at ToJ to ensure Rhaegar left, and then the trio + Lyanna were left with nothing but vague rumor until after the Sack of KL. Considering that it's very likely no one knew where Lyanna was until after the dust began to settle in KL following the Sack (maybe that info is how Varys kept his spot on the council?), it would take Ned a little time to get his team together to go get her. Time enough for the news of what happened to spread even to the ToJ - still only rumor, for them, but enough rumors saying the same or near enough that they know.

[RoamingRonin]

This is still going on?

I predicted a ten page discussion on page two and acted accordingly.

[MtnLion]

I believe that R + L = J, and that J is legitimate (two ways Jon can be legitimate, R and L married, or royal decree -Aerys).

The events at the ToJ are interesting - hopefully we will learn more.

My view is that we can infer what the KG duties are up till the fall of K/L and the death of Aerys - the end of the Targaryen dynasty. The KG are a Targaryen creation, instituted to protect and serve the Targaryen royal family under direction of a Targaryen King. It is not clear what the KGs responsibilities would be after the Targaryen dynasty ended. Robert Baratheon elected to continue the KG tradition while he was king, he could have decided that the KG institution died with Targaryen dynasty.

When Ned and company meet the three KG at ToJ - I think everyone knows who the king of Westeros is - its Robert Baratheon. Neither Viserys or Jon are a king from a practical view - what are they king of?? However, I think Jon could be considered a king from a 'prophecy fulfillment' perspective.

Why did the KG fight? - They had sworn their lives to Aerys and the Targaryen dynasty and failed - they wanted to die in battle (a KG version of seppuku).

We now have two points of view that are/were LC of the KG - I think we will learn more about the KG in the upcoming books.

Sorry to interrupt your wonderful exercise in logic with a fact, but here goes. Robert is a Targaryen heir. Robert has a better claim tot he throne than Daenerys does, simply because he is a male heir. Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen. The council held by the rebels decided that Robert had the best claim to the throne because of his Targaryen blood. If Jon is an heir his claim is greater than Robert's, and we know what Robert would do with dragonspawn.

Next, Hightower is very clear that he supported the Targaryens and Aerys in particular, being willing to slay Jaime to save Aerys. So, it should be obvious that he is not ready to fight at the tower, simply because Rhaegar ordered it. He says why he is at the tower, he is a Kingsguard, Kingsguard do not flee, they swore a vow. Jaime says that this vow is to "protect and defend the king".

[MtnLion]

Even if Jon was not trueborn, the Kingsguard could be at TOJ for these reasons:

1. The KGs were bound to Rhaegar's command. To protect his lady love no matter what.

2. This.

Plus, they knew that Viserys at least had some honest protection by Willem

As they carefully note, Willem is not of the Kingsguard. The king must always have a Kingsguard with him, with extremely rare exceptions. The three at the tower know that their place is with the king. Yet, they remain and fight, ergo the king is at the tower. They do not explicitly say so, they do not allow Ned or his companions to enter the tower, that would reveal too much information. They cannot travel in secrecy as well as they can remain at the tower in secrecy. The simple movement of the White Swords would be newsworthy, so they need to move swiftly when the time is right, to avoid being discovered and confronted. To understand motives one must first place thier perspective in the position whose motives are to be understood. We have a newborn (king) to protect, and his mother is gravely ill. We need to feed the newborn, and move swiftly in secrecy to make an escape, until then our safest course is to remain at our secret location. We can arrange for a ship to pick us up and remove us to safety, via courier. We can even arrange it in such a way that we need not travel too close to someone that would take note.

It is not really difficult to be realistic about the choices that the three Kingsguard at the tower made. What is unrealistic is taking a preconceived notion in and trying to apply 20/20 hindsight to refute the story that the author has told, thus far. The people who are presenting contrasting views are learned people, some of whom help others to understand novels. In other words, teachers.

[MtnLion]

Basically, when Jaime killed Aerys, the oath of protecting the king was turned upside down. The KGs came to realize that a king being with KG posed even more danger and didn't even trust one another. They thought instead of letting one go to protect Viserys, it would be better to trust Willem Darry, whom they all know is very honourable, since one of the KG could possibly end up killing Viserys or defect to Robert, like Barristan.

I'm saying this again.

I quoted another possibility in my previous post. Are you overlooking that?

Here Hightower says that Jaime was a false brother, and he would gladly slay him to protect Aerys. What other possibility? They say that they are protecting the king by staying at the tower. Not much else can be meant by stating that they are Kingsguard, and they swore a vow. What they say:

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Here Hightower says that Jaime was a false brother, and he would gladly slay him to protect Aerys. What other possibility? They say that they are protecting the king by staying at the tower. Not much else can be meant by stating that they are Kingsguard, and they swore a vow. What they say:

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

Yep, and what this also plainly illustrates is the very point that has been made innumerable times on this thread-- they didn't know Aerys (and by extension Aegon et al) had need of them until it was too late.

[MtnLion]

Ah, wee need this, and do take the time to read it through before you suggest that the analysis is out of line. The analysis is based not only on the text, but other references int he story, so it is much deeper than merely the words presented.

"I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

Ned expected the majority of the Kingsguard to be present at the major battle. We know that three of them were present, and only Ser Barristan (barely) survived.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

Ser Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent are with Rhaegar when Lyanna enters the company of the prince. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard answers this, so none of previous comment can be directed at Arthur or Oswell directly, and Gerold is accepting responsibility for their actions. There is no surprise about events on the Trident expressed by Gerold or Oswell in the next line.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

This states that Robert is considered a usurper by these Kingsguard, or at least by Oswell. He does use the term "we" and implies that Robert could not have won the battle if these three had been allowed to enter into it.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

Ned relays that King's Landing has fallen and Aerys is dead. Again, Ned expresses his surprise to not see these three Kingsguard doing their duty of protecting and defending the king.

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

The Lord Commander says that their duties were elsewhere, too far away to do anything about the events Ned is relating. He condemns Jaime as a Oathbreaker, and implies that he or one of these others would certainly kill Jaime rather than let him slay the king. This reaffirms their loyalty to the Targaryen dynasty.

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

Ned tells them that all remaining forces surrendered to him, and pledged fealty to Robert and Ned. He expected to find the last of the Kingsguard with these forces, but again was surprised to note that they were not. This is an invitation for the Kingsguard to surrender to him.

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Arthur speaks for the group, and says that they will not surrender.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

This being placed here is important because Ned is now changing his offer. He sees that they will not surrender, but he does not want to fight them, he holds these knights in high regard, even years later. He offers them a chance to leave peacefully and do their duty by guarding the heir to the Targaryen dynasty, or so he thinks.

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

Ser Willem is a brother to Ser Jonothor Darry of the Kingsguard, and known well to these members of the Kingsguard.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

The Lord Commander correctly states that Viserys does not have a Kingsguard with him. He also says that the Kingsguard would not flee from their duty, to guard the king. On the night that news of the Trident arrived at King's Landing Aerys ordered that Rhaella and Viserys be taken to Dragonstone for their safety, as it appeared that King's Landing would be under siege shortly. Jaime was the only Kingsguard, and his duty was with the king, so Willem was drafted to protect the royal family members. If the Red Keep falls, and Aerys dies then Viserys was safe as long as he could stay alive on Dragonstone. The majority of the fighting men had gone with Rhaegar, and mustering enough men to defend the city or just the Red Keep may be difficult. The Kingsguard are stating that they would not flee King's Landing, as their duty was to protect and defend the king, and they would stay to fulfill their vow.

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

Arthur reiterates that the Kingsguard would not have chosen to leave King's Landing to protect the royal family, over doing their duty to protect and defend the king (then). This lends some credance to the curse of Jaime, earlier. But, the meaning of now has a great deal more weight to it. Not only do they point out their vow, in the next line, but this line also says that they are guarding a king at this location, and they are unwilling to take Ned's offer to leave this king and flee to Dragonstone in relative safety to guard another heir.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Now, we should be certain that there is a king present, the Lord Commander has decided that all three would remain to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:

• The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.
• Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.
• Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.
• Ser Gerold still has a responsibility to see to the safety of the king, and keeping Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king if the king is present at the tower.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

The final, or most important battle of the Targeyen dynasty.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom. There is no blame for participating in taking Lyanna, which argues that Lyanna was never dishonored, but more likely freely participated.

[Lonin]

Sorry to interrupt your wonderful exercise in logic with a fact, but here goes. Robert is a Targaryen heir. Robert has a better claim tot he throne than Daenerys does, simply because he is a male heir. Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen. The council held by the rebels decided that Robert had the best claim to the throne because of his Targaryen blood. If Jon is an heir his claim is greater than Robert's, and we know what Robert would do with dragonspawn.

Next, Hightower is very clear that he supported the Targaryens and Aerys in particular, being willing to slay Jaime to save Aerys. So, it should be obvious that he is not ready to fight at the tower, simply because Rhaegar ordered it. He says why he is at the tower, he is a Kingsguard, Kingsguard do not flee, they swore a vow. Jaime says that this vow is to "protect and defend the king".

I disagree - It is not a fact that Robert is a Targaryen heir, that view is based on a non canon wiki article. Viserys was alive when Robert was crowned, and has the better Targ blood claim - no one is suggesting that they should have crowned him. Yes, he has Targaryen blood, but he is a Baratheon and started the Baratheon dynasty. Roberts Targaryen blood was used to give the appearance of continuity in the ruling of Westeros and to appease the loyalist. No one in the books regards Robert Baratheon as a continuation of the Targaryen dynasty, you even mentioned Robert's dragonspawn comments. Robert won the IT with his war hammer, not his Targaryen blood. The Martels and Plumms also have Targ blood - no one suggests that they are heirs.

Since the Targaryen dynasty is over, Daenerys has no real claim to the Iron Throne by right of succession. Her claim will be by right of conquest.

As I have mentioned, I think R + L = J, and Jon is legit - so, from a Targaryen succession view Jon has the best claim. However, the Targaryen dynasty ended with the fall of K/L.

My disagreement with the majority of the R + L = J, Jon is legit crowd, is what can be inferred by the 3KG remaining at ToJ after the fall of the Targ dynasty. The 3KG are loyal Targaryen supporters, willing to fight and die to defend the Targaryen dynasty. What is unclear to me, is what would be the state of the vows and oaths made by the KG once the Targaryen dynasty was over. You could argue, as most do, that the vows and oaths continued on, adding more evidence that Jon is legit, Targaryen heir. My view, is that we don't know enough, factually, to state that the oaths and vows continue after the fall of the Targaryens. Selmy and Jaime seemed to feel they were free to join the new Baratheon KG.

Why did the 3KG fight at ToJ ? - if you believe that the oaths and vows continued after the fall, then they were protecting Jon. Another option is that with the fall of the Targ dynasty, they felt they had failed their oaths and vows. They had pledged their lives and they preferred death in battle as opposed to surrender.

[MtnLion]

1. I disagree - It is not a fact that Robert is a Targaryen heir, that view is based on a non canon wiki article.

2. Viserys was alive when Robert was crowned, and has the better Targ blood claim - no one is suggesting that they should have crowned him.

3. Yes, he has Targaryen blood, but he is a Baratheon and started the Baratheon dynasty.

4. Roberts Targaryen blood was used to give the appearance of continuity in the ruling of Westeros and to appease the loyalist.

5. No one in the books regards Robert Baratheon as a continuation of the Targaryen dynasty, you even mentioned Robert's dragonspawn comments.

6. Robert won the IT with his war hammer, not his Targaryen blood.

7. The Martels and Plumms also have Targ blood - no one suggests that they are heirs.

8. Since the Targaryen dynasty is over, Daenerys has no real claim to the Iron Throne by right of succession. Her claim will be by right of conquest.

9. As I have mentioned, I think R + L = J, and Jon is legit - so, from a Targaryen succession view Jon has the best claim. However, the Targaryen dynasty ended with the fall of K/L.

10. My disagreement with the majority of the R + L = J, Jon is legit crowd, is what can be inferred by the 3KG remaining at ToJ after the fall of the Targ dynasty. The 3KG are loyal Targaryen supporters, willing to fight and die to defend the Targaryen dynasty. What is unclear to me, is what would be the state of the vows and oaths made by the KG once the Targaryen dynasty was over. You could argue, as most do, that the vows and oaths continued on, adding more evidence that Jon is legit, Targaryen heir. My view, is that we don't know enough, factually, to state that the oaths and vows continue after the fall of the Targaryens. Selmy and Jaime seemed to feel they were free to join the new Baratheon KG.

11. Why did the 3KG fight at ToJ ? - if you believe that the oaths and vows continued after the fall, then they were protecting Jon. Another option is that with the fall of the Targ dynasty, they felt they had failed their oaths and vows. They had pledged their lives and they preferred death in battle as opposed to surrender.

1. Why do you say that Robert is not a Targaryen heir, and later (3 & 4) admit that he had Targaryen blood? You are always in the habit of contradicting yourself? No, it is not based upon the Wiki, it is based upon the fact that Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen, and that (SSM) GRRM says that all males, even cadet branch males, come before females in the line of succession for House Targaryen, that the wiki is based upon.

2. Viserys was alive, and if one follows the succession strictly, yes he comes before Robert. However, he is not making a claim, is he? He is in isolation on Dragonstone with a besieging fleet and mutinous protectors. If he tried to lay a claim, Robert would have his head soon enough. That is how its done, with Robert, or did you miss the part that he didn't mind that Aegon and Rhaenys were slain at 2-3 years of age, and one year of age?

3. No, actually Aegon I's bastard brother started the Baratheon Dynasty, or rather continued it after Argilac the Arrogant was the last Storm King thrown down by the Targaryens. Do you have a candidate from the rebels that had more Targaryen blood than Robert? Details, please.

4. See 1 and 3.

5. So, you don't think that Ned was referring to Robert's Targaryen blood when he mentioned that Robert was chosen for the throne because he had a stronger claim? What do you think he was referring to?

6. Robert did one thing with his hammer, he slew Rhaegar, and won the Battle of the Trident. Tywinn being let into King's Landing without a fight, caused the sack, and Jaime relieved the kingdom of its king. If it hadn't been for the Lannisters and Pycelle the war may have continued long and long.

7. The Martels were on the wrong side of the rebellion (ETA: Please show your reference for House Martell having Targaryen lineage that could be considered stronger than Robert's. No evidence as far as I could find.), and it certainly looks as though the Plumms could have been considered, but Robert was chosen. Show someone that has closer roots to the Targaryens and is male.

8. You're right, Daenerys does not have a claim to the throne, and that is the fault of not being educated properly, including Targaryen succession rights. Don't make assumptions on how things will play out, especially since the dragons are an afterthought by the author, and really have nothing to add to the plot. If Daenerys is true to her word, when she encounters fAegon she will need to have a reason to oppose him, just as she will with Stannis, who is Robert's full brother and Targaryen heir before Daenerys. If she also learns about Jon being an heir, she will also expose her true makeup, or perhaps she is a greedy clutching thing, afterall? (I personally think that we are in for something of a reveal, afterall the blue rose growing from a chink in a wall of ice fills the air with sweetness.)

9. No, it really didn't, or are you not paying attention to the history lesson? Hmm, it seems that the House Plantagenet Dynasty's last ruler was Richard III of House York.

Richard III (2 October 1452 – 22 August 1485) was King of England for two years, from 1483 until his death in 1485 in the Battle of Bosworth Field. He was the last king of the House of York and the last of the Plantagenet dynasty.

So, Baratheons were continuing the Targaryen Dynasty, just as Richard of York continued the Plantagenet Dynasty. ;)

10. Right at the end, it is clear:

• The White Bull is in charge

The White Bull supports Targaryens, including Aerys

The White Bull cites his vow as the reason that he does not "flee" to Viserys

11. You're going to have to show a reason, other than the conversation at the tower, since that conversation has been thoroughly analyzed, and only Ned expresses sorrow over having to battle the three. The three Kingsguard are confident and informed. They believe that they are doing the right thing and living up to their vow. Again, Jaime says that the vow is "to protect and defend the king". While there may be more promises, Barristan confirms that the primary duty is to protect and defend the king, which importantly the Kingsguard at the tower of joy are not doing unless the king is in the tower. Clear enough?

[corbon]

1. Why do you say that Robert is not a Targaryen heir, and later (3 & 4) admit that he had Targaryen blood? You are always in the habit of contradicting yourself? No, it is not based upon the Wiki, it is based upon the fact that Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen, and that (SSM) GRRM says that all males, even cadet branch males, come before females in the line of succession for House Targaryen, that the wiki is based upon.

enough?

Because he's not, at all.

He's a Baratheon. Any Targaryen claim he has comes through from his grandmother - ie the female line. If that female ine is acceptable, then Dany comes before him. But its not. And even if it did, Viserys undoubtedly came way waaay before him.

A cadet branch is the same family still through the male line - founded normally by a younger brother who missed out on the big prize, so to speak, but still carries the claim, and passes it ever distantly through his sons.

The Baratheons are not a cadet branch of the Targaryen family.

What Robert has is the best claim amongst the leaders of the rebellion, not the best claim left as a Targaryen.

[Lonin]

1. Why do you say that Robert is not a Targaryen heir, and later (3 & 4) admit that he had Targaryen blood? You are always in the habit of contradicting yourself? No, it is not based upon the Wiki, it is based upon the fact that Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen, and that (SSM) GRRM says that all males, even cadet branch males, come before females in the line of succession for House Targaryen, that the wiki is based upon.

2. Viserys was alive, and if one follows the succession strictly, yes he comes before Robert. However, he is not making a claim, is he? He is in isolation on Dragonstone with a besieging fleet and mutinous protectors. If he tried to lay a claim, Robert would have his head soon enough. That is how its done, with Robert, or did you miss the part that he didn't mind that Aegon and Rhaenys were slain at 2-3 years of age, and one year of age?

3. No, actually Aegon I's bastard brother started the Baratheon Dynasty, or rather continued it after Argilac the Arrogant was the last Storm King thrown down by the Targaryens. Do you have a candidate from the rebels that had more Targaryen blood than Robert? Details, please.

4. See 1 and 3.

5. So, you don't think that Ned was referring to Robert's Targaryen blood when he mentioned that Robert was chosen for the throne because he had a stronger claim? What do you think he was referring to?

6. Robert did one thing with his hammer, he slew Rhaegar, and won the Battle of the Trident. Tywinn being let into King's Landing without a fight, caused the sack, and Jaime relieved the kingdom of its king. If it hadn't been for the Lannisters and Pycelle the war may have continued long and long.

7. The Martels were on the wrong side of the rebellion (ETA: Please show your reference for House Martell having Targaryen lineage that could be considered stronger than Robert's. No evidence as far as I could find.), and it certainly looks as though the Plumms could have been considered, but Robert was chosen. Show someone that has closer roots to the Targaryens and is male.

8. You're right, Daenerys does not have a claim to the throne, and that is the fault of not being educated properly, including Targaryen succession rights. Don't make assumptions on how things will play out, especially since the dragons are an afterthought by the author, and really have nothing to add to the plot. If Daenerys is true to her word, when she encounters fAegon she will need to have a reason to oppose him, just as she will with Stannis, who is Robert's full brother and Targaryen heir before Daenerys. If she also learns about Jon being an heir, she will also expose her true makeup, or perhaps she is a greedy clutching thing, afterall? (I personally think that we are in for something of a reveal, afterall the blue rose growing from a chink in a wall of ice fills the air with sweetness.)

9. No, it really didn't, or are you not paying attention to the history lesson? Hmm, it seems that the House Plantagenet Dynasty's last ruler was Richard III of House York.

Richard III (2 October 1452 – 22 August 1485) was King of England for two years, from 1483 until his death in 1485 in the Battle of Bosworth Field. He was the last king of the House of York and the last of the Plantagenet dynasty.

So, Baratheons were continuing the Targaryen Dynasty, just as Richard of York continued the Plantagenet Dynasty. ;)

10. Right at the end, it is clear:

• The White Bull is in charge
• The White Bull supports Targaryens, including Aerys
• The White Bull cites his vow as the reason that he does not "flee" to Viserys

11. You're going to have to show a reason, other than the conversation at the tower, since that conversation has been thoroughly analyzed, and only Ned expresses sorrow over having to battle the three. The three Kingsguard are confident and informed. They believe that they are doing the right thing and living up to their vow. Again, Jaime says that the vow is "to protect and defend the king". While there may be more promises, Barristan confirms that the primary duty is to protect and defend the king, which importantly the Kingsguard at the tower of joy are not doing unless the king is in the tower. Clear enough?

Well, first of all, we seem to be using different definitions for a couple of words.

A) The definition of "dynasty" that I am using is:

dy·nas·ty

noun

1. a line of hereditary rulers of a country.

B) The definition of "heir" that I am using is:

noun

2. A person who succeeds or is in line to succeed to a hereditary rank, title, or office.

Thus from your post items 1 - 11.

1 - Robert was not a Targaryen heir.

2 - Robert is not a Targaryen heir. No, I didnt miss the part about Aegon and Rhaenys - thanks for your concern.

3 - I am not sure what deffinition of dynasty you are using. Orys Baratheon did not start a dynasty. He founded one of the Great Houses. There have been two dynasties. Targaryen followed by Baratheon - which was founded by Robert Baratheon.

5 - Robert had best claim amongst rebels.

6 - Targaryens lost the war at the Trident, Tywin and the Freys saw that and joined the rebellion.

7 - I said they had Targ blood as do the Plumms, I didnt say they had a claim.

8 - n/a

9 - No the Baratheons are not continuing the Targaryen Dynasty.. Robert started the Baratheon dynasty. I did ok in history, but thanks again for your concern.

10 - disagree.

11 - I didn't say they were not confident or informed. I said that with the fall of the Targaryen Dynasty - which they had sworn to protect, and to give their lives for - that they might have decided that death in battle was a good option. I think they would have fought no matter how many men Ned had with him. My vision and word comprehension are fine but thanks again for the concern.

I agree with what Corbon said above.