Isn't Varys's next step to find Gendry?

[aryagonnakill]

You are making several assumptions.

Assumption #1: You are assuming that Varys set up Gendry from the very beginning. This is not documented in the books. Varys' only documented involvement with Gendry is that he may have provided him some aid in escaping King's Landing. This does not require him to have planned his black hair from the beginning.

Assumption #2: You are assuming Varys knows what Gendry's true parentage is. But this is not necessarily the case. If Ned can mistakenly believe that Gendry is King Robert's bastard son, then so can other people, including Varys.

Assumption #3: You are assuming that, if Varys knows Gendry's true parentage, he has no reason to be interested in him, except to set him up as a fake bastard of King Robert. But why would anyone want to set up a fake bastard of Robert Baratheon? He's got plenty of real bastards, and none of them have any claim to power whatsoever. If Gendry is not Robert's bastard then it must mean he is someone at least equally important, if not MORE important. Otherwise, GRRM would not have all this mystery surrounding him.

Consider this: If Gendry's mother is just some common girl, then why has GRRM left such a mystery surrounding his mother? Obviously there is more to the story.

Your statement #1 is technically correct, however it doesn't really make a difference. If a highborn/ rich and powerful person sent Gendry to Tobho Mott and paid the fee and warned Tobho not to talk to anyone about the kid, then that person was setting Gendry up as a fake bastard from the start(if he isn't Roberts which I assert he is), and my points still hold, no 1 could know at that time that Gendry would look anything like Robert, or that his other bastards would all have the same black hair.

Since your statement#1 is correct statement #2 is automatically correct as well.

Statement#3 is where you loose me. Varys has obviously been plotting to get Aegon on the thrown, whether he is a blackfyre supporter or a Targ supporter, or whether he thinks Aegon the best choice to rule, whichever of the 3, we overheard varys and Ilyrio in A Game of Thrones, Varys wanted to delay, but obviously wanted to start chaos eventually. If LF didn't beat him to it then Gendry was the perfect way to cause problems in his own time as well. All anyone ever had to do was to get Jon Aryn and Stannis to Tobho Motts, this would always have set things in motion. None of the other children were old enough to resemble Robert past the hair.

It is clearly hinted that Varys brought Gendry if not outright stated (which I'm taking your word on) Varys tells Ned he took care of all Roberts bastards, he definitely tells him he sent Edric presents every year on his birthday. And everyone who see's Gendry mistakes him for Robert/Renly.

[Alhazred]

Your statement #1 is technically correct, however it doesn't really make a difference. If a highborn/ rich and powerful person sent Gendry to Tobho Mott and paid the fee and warned Tobho not to talk to anyone about the kid, then that person was setting Gendry up as a fake bastard from the start(if he isn't Roberts which I assert he is), and my points still hold, no 1 could know at that time that Gendry would look anything like Robert, or that his other bastards would all have the same black hair.

Your points do not hold, because you are assuming that Varys created Gendry; that he is some kind of omniscient omnipotent mastermind capable of planning in advance Gendry's resemblance to King Robert. And that is silly, even if he is in fact King Robert's bastard. Varys did not create Gendry. Whatever his motives for his actions regarding Gendry, he is merely taking Gendry as he finds him ... resemblance to Robert and all.

If someone (not necessarily Varys) tried to hide Gendry, then it proves that someone (not necessarily Varys) tried to hide Gendry ... probably because of who he WAS (or perhaps because of who they THOUGHT he was)... and not because of any particular plan that he would grow up to look exactly as he did. He was not being "set up" either as a fake bastard or a real bastard. He was merely being hidden.

If LF didn't beat him to it then Gendry was the perfect way to cause problems in his own time as well.

Well, the first problem with this is that LF DID beat him to it. So now we have been fed a big mystery that has turned out to have no plot relevance. This may not contradict the open-ended logic of real life, but it does seem to fly in the face of the idea that a story-teller (even of true stories) should stay focused on relevant information.

If he wants to use Gendry to cause problems, he can do so. But this does not require him to plan this from the moment of his birth, nor is such incredible prescience realistic. He can take Gendry as he finds him at age 14, a boy who looks like Robert and who SEEMS to be Robert's bastard.

The evidence for a relationship to Robert lies in the resemblance. This is relevant, but not entirely conclusive. Varys' known actions add nothing to the evidence.

It is clearly hinted that Varys brought Gendry if not outright stated (which I'm taking your word on) Varys tells Ned he took care of all Roberts bastards [...]

He never said he took care of Gendry. And that's what counts here. Of course, even if he had taken care of Gendry, on the belief that he was Robert's bastard, it might not necessarily prove that he was Robert's bastard.

he definitely tells him he sent Edric presents every year on his birthday.

Yes, but I was not doubting Edric's case.

And everyone who see's Gendry mistakes him for Robert/Renly.

There are other ways for Gendry to be related to Robert and/or Renly without being Robert's son and Renly's nephew. Interesting that the resemblance to Renly seems to be stronger, judging by Brienne's reaction.

Recall that Robert and Renly had Targ heritage. Recall also that those Targs got around, occasionally screwing other men's wives.

[aryagonnakill]

Your points do not hold, because you are assuming that Varys created Gendry; that he is some kind of omniscient omnipotent mastermind capable of planning in advance Gendry's resemblance to King Robert. And that is silly, even if he is in fact King Robert's bastard. Varys did not create Gendry. Whatever his motives for his actions regarding Gendry, he is merely taking Gendry as he finds him ... resemblance to Robert and all.

If someone (not necessarily Varys) tried to hide Gendry, then it proves that someone (not necessarily Varys) tried to hide Gendry ... probably because of who he WAS (or perhaps because of who they THOUGHT he was)... and not because of any particular plan that he would grow up to look exactly as he did. He was not being "set up" either as a fake bastard or a real bastard. He was merely being hidden.

Well, the first problem with this is that LF DID beat him to it. So now we have been fed a big mystery that has turned out to have no plot relevance. This may not contradict the open-ended logic of real life, but it does seem to fly in the face of the idea that a story-teller (even of true stories) should stay focused on relevant information.

If he wants to use Gendry to cause problems, he can do so. But this does not require him to plan this from the moment of his birth, nor is such incredible prescience realistic. He can take Gendry as he finds him at age 14, a boy who looks like Robert and who SEEMS to be Robert's bastard.

The evidence for a relationship to Robert lies in the resemblance. This is relevant, but not entirely conclusive. Varys' known actions add nothing to the evidence.

He never said he took care of Gendry. And that's what counts here. Of course, even if he had taken care of Gendry, on the belief that he was Robert's bastard, it might not necessarily prove that he was Robert's bastard.

Yes, but I was not doubting Edric's case.

There are other ways for Gendry to be related to Robert and/or Renly without being Robert's son and Renly's nephew. Interesting that the resemblance to Renly seems to be stronger, judging by Brienne's reaction.

Recall that Robert and Renly had Targ heritage. Recall also that those Targs got around, occasionally screwing other men's wives.

I stopped reading your post after your first sentence because you completely misread what I posted, or didn't read it or whatever. But your first sentence is completely factually incorrect.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Your points do not hold, because you are assuming that Varys created Gendry; that he is some kind of omniscient omnipotent mastermind capable of planning in advance Gendry's resemblance to King Robert. And that is silly, even if he is in fact King Robert's bastard. Varys did not create Gendry. Whatever his motives for his actions regarding Gendry, he is merely taking Gendry as he finds him ... resemblance to Robert and all.

Varys was present in KL before Robert became a King. He stayed present when Robert became a king. And Varys is the Master of Whispers, and thus has spies almost everywhere. Varys would have kept eyes on all the important people in the Red Keep, and around the Red Keep, especailly Robert and Cersei. So when Robert would visit a whorehouse, for example, and bed a girl, and leave and that girl becomes pregnant, it would make the chance big it's Roberts babe. The woman who's babe get's killed in aCoK is an example here. She claims she hasn't been with anyone since having been with Robert, and even though she met Robert only once, she is convinced the child is his. She was a young girl, and the possibility exists that she was a maiden when they had sex.

If someone (not necessarily Varys) tried to hide Gendry, then it proves that someone (not necessarily Varys) tried to hide Gendry ... probably because of who he WAS ... and not because of any particular plan that he would grow up to look exactly as he did. He was not being "set up" either as a fake bastard or a real bastard. He was merely being hidden.

Someone did not tried to hide Gendry. They tried to have him provided for. If Gendry had been in need of hiding, he would have been hiding all his life. The girl in the Vale, Mya, had a mother to care for her. The baby Barra had a mother with a stable income. Edric was being cared for at Storms End. Gendry was the one who ended up alone, as a little boy, and he got help to get himself food in his belly and a roof over his head. He was being cared for.

Well, the first problem with this is that LF DID beat him to it. So now we have been fed a big mystery that has turned out to have no plot relevance. This may not contradict the open-ended logic of real life, but it does seem to fly in the face of the idea that a story-teller (even of true stories) should stay focused on relevant information.

GRRM is a writer who gives us a lot of information, so detailed that most other writers would bother with all the detail. Yet GRRM does it. If Varys did in fact paid for Gendry's apprenticeship, to keep him safe, he could have had a plan where Gendry could possibly play a role in. The only confirmed bastards of Robert were Mya and Edric, yet is someone were to use them as evidence that Joff, Myrcella and Tommen weren't Robert's, Cersei could claim that two children with black hair wouldn't be proof, since it could be mere coincidence. The more bastards you have, the better in this case, and Varys has admitted he knows about eight (which makes me wonder, since we know of only seven, and three of those seven are dead). GRRM might have given us information that became useless in the greater plan of it all after LF interferred by creating chaos, but it's nice to see Varys' possibly having planned things, which then failed (keeping Robert's bastards safe so they could be used when the timing was right).

If he wants to use Gendry to cause problems, he can do so. But this does not require him to plan this from the moment of his birth, nor is such incredible prescience realistic. He can take Gendry as he finds him at age 14, a boy who looks like Robert and who SEEMS to be Robert's bastard.

The evidence for a relationship to Robert lies in the resemblance. This is relevant, but not entirely conclusive. Varys' known actions add nothing to the evidence.

I don't really know what you mean with "plan from the moment of his birth". But at the moment of his birth, and severalyears there after, Gendry was relatively safe. Varys would only be watching in those years, not actively intervening. We meet Gendry when he is about thirteen years old, but he has been at Tobho's for a while. The man Tobho describes, mathes Varys' round shoulders and height, and his need for secrecy, which makes it more likely it was indeed Varys who paid for Gendry's apprenticeship, and that he knew of Gendry for a while.

Though I agree with you on the part I made bold, take what I've said here in consideration.

Also

There are other ways for Gendry to be related to Robert and/or Renly without being Robert's son and Renly's nephew. Interesting that the resemblance to Renly seems to be stronger, judging by Brienne's reaction.

Renly is described by Ned, who grew up with Robert and knew him best, as looking like Robert at the moment he won his throne. Gendry is also described as looking like a young, strong man. Of course Gendry would resemble Renly more than Robert now. Renly is looking exactly like Robert did at the same age. Robert looks nothing like him 20 year old self now. So it is only logical Gendry would look more like how Renly is looking now.

Recall that Robert and Renly had Targ heritage. Recall also that those Targs got around, occasionally screwing other men's wives.

What are you trying to say? That Gendry is fathered by a Targaryen? The deaths of all male Targaryens in Westeros happen way before Gendry's birth.

Or are you implying that Gendry can look like Robert and Renly because of shared Targ heritage?

Targaryens had the Valyrian looks, and passed these on to their children most of the time. The Baratheon colouring was passed on in the Baratheon line. No Targaryen has ever had black hair. If you know anything of genetics, you'll know that black hair cannot be passed on from a family with all non-black colouring. There has to be black hair in the family somewhere for the child to get black hair.

Of the only known Targaryen-Baratheon coupling, which will be described further in the Princess and the Queen, we know the daughter resulting from this marriage had Targaryen colouring, no black hair was present. Though it is unknown if the Baratheon wife had black hair, but it seems to be a family treat, because in all the Baratheon-Lannister couplings, the Baratheon side had black hair, and their children did as well. Just as the silver hair has been given to almost every Targaryen, the black hair to every Baratheon, and the golden hair to almost every Lannister, it makes no sense for Gendry to have black hair only because of his Targaryen heritage.

Also, the last Targaryen who could have gotten bastards, were Rhaegar and Aerys. Rhaegar most probably did not frequent brothels, since he was too occupied with prophecies and such. Aerys probably didn't either, since he didn't dare leave his rooms, and only got sexually excited when he had seen a man burn, something which didn't happen until the later years of his reign. No child born around this time, would be old enough to father a child old enough to be Gendry.

[Alhazred]

I stopped reading your post after your first sentence because you completely misread what I posted, or didn't read it or whatever. But your first sentence is completely factually incorrect.

Fair enough. But I was merely trying to make a point, not trying to tell you what you think.

[Varok Saurfang]

Butting in on the conversation.

If the line that Ned reads from the family tree book of all the great houses is talking about Lord Steffon Baratheon, Robert's father, then, even when it comes to Targaryen/Baratheon children, you would still get black hair, because Steffon's mother was a Targaryen (Rhaelle).

Just throwing it all there.

The line says something like: "Lord Orris Baratheon, black of hair. Lord Axel Baratheon, black of hair. Lord Lyonel Baratheon, black of hair…Steffon Baratheon, black of hair…Robert Baratheon, black of hair…"

I believe it is talking about Roberts father cuz Roberts name comes after.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Butting in on the conversation.

If the line that Ned reads from the family tree book of all the great houses is talking about Lord Steffon Baratheon, Robert's father, then, even when it comes to Targaryen/Baratheon children, you would still get black hair, because Steffon's mother was a Targaryen (Rhaelle).

Just throwing it all there.

The line says something like: "Lord Orris Baratheon, black of hair. Lord Axel Baratheon, black of hair. Lord Lyonel Baratheon, black of hair…Steffon Baratheon, black of hair…Robert Baratheon, black of hair…"

I believe it is talking about Roberts father cuz Roberts name comes after.

Steffon Baratheon was indeed Robert's father.

Though there is one thing, I already mentioned, which you can read about in the Princess of the Queen

Prince Aemon Targayen marries Jocelyn Baratheon, and though we don't know how she looked, we do know how their daughter looked. Princess Rhaenys, the Queen Who Never Was mentioned in the preview, had the typical Valyrian hair colouring, although her eye colour wasn't mentioned (or if it was, I have forgotten it).

This is the first Baratheon marriage I can think of where the child doesn't have the Baratheon colouring. Shireen is another option, though her hair colour has never been described.

So it isn't always true that Baratheons have children with dark hair. Though all of Roberts known bastards do have back hair. Of course, it is entirely possible that Shireen does have black hair, and it simply hasn't been mentioned, and that Jocelyn didn't have black hair either, being so closely related to Orys Baratheon, whose hair colour is also unknown.

[Alhazred]

Varys was present in KL before Robert became a King. He stayed present when Robert became a king. And Varys is the Master of Whispers, and thus has spies almost everywhere. Varys would have kept eyes on all the important people in the Red Keep, and around the Red Keep, especailly Robert and Cersei. So when Robert would visit a whorehouse, for example, and bed a girl, and leave and that girl becomes pregnant, it would make the chance big it's Roberts babe.

Lets recall the context of the discussion. I suggested that it is POSSIBLE that Gendry is not Robert's bastard. When people argue with me, I assume they are trying to prove otherwise.

I agree that the above is perfectly plausible speculations that Gendry is Robert's bastard and Varys knows it. But it is only speculation.

Someone did not tried to hide Gendry. They tried to have him provided for.

Whoever tried to have him provided for, tried to hide the fact that he was being provided for. This suggests an attempt to hide his origin.

If Gendry had been in need of hiding, he would have been hiding all his life.

No. Someone could merely have asked the smith not to discuss the arrangements made for Gendry, which might provoke speculation about his origins. That is what I was talking about.

I don't really know what you mean with "plan from the moment of his birth".

Neither do I. I was merely trying to guess what point Aryagonnakill was trying to make. And apparently I guessed wrong.

Though I agree with you on the part I made bold, take what I've said here in consideration.

Then I guess we mostly agree.

What are you trying to say? That Gendry is fathered by a Targaryen? The deaths of all male Targaryens in Westeros happen way before Gendry's birth.

Before his birth? Yes. Before his conception? Not necessarily. Gendry is the same age as Jon Snow. He could (for instance) be one of twins or triplets born at the TOJ ("the dragon has three heads").

Targaryens had the Valyrian looks, and passed these on to their children most of the time. The Baratheon colouring was passed on in the Baratheon line. No Targaryen has ever had black hair.

The Baratheons have Targ heritage. That is the basis of their claim to the throne.

There has to be black hair in the family somewhere for the child to get black hair.

Well then, presumably there is black hair "somewhere in the family". Note that the woman he remembers might not be his mother.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Whoever tried to have him provided for, tried to hide the fact that he was being provided for. This suggests an attempt to hide his origin.

Whoever provided for Gendry did not necessarily tried to hide Gendry's origin. They tried to hide their own identity. When Ned talked to Tobho, it seemed to be clear Tobho had an indication to who Gendry was.

No. Someone could merely have asked the smith not to discuss the arrangements made for Gendry, which might provoke speculation about his origins. That is what I was talking about.

But wasn't that exactly what the money he was paid was for? To ensure he wouldn't talk about anything that had happened?

Then I guess we mostly agree.

:)

Before his birth? Yes. Before his conception? Not necessarily. Gendry is the same age as Jon Snow. He could (for instance) be one of twins or triplets born at the TOJ ("the dragon has three heads").

Gendry is a bit younger than Jon. Jon is 14 at the beginning of aGoT. This is when 298 has only just started for a couple of weeks. Jon turns 15 somewhere during 298 AL.

Also, Gendry can't possibly be related to Jon that directly. You have two types of twins: the homozygotic, and the dizygotic twins. Homozygotic means both children are from the same fertilized egg, which splits into two embryo's early in the embryonic development. Homozygotic twins are genetically identical (and will thus look very, very, very much alike, almost up to the point you wouldn't be able to tell one from the other). This is obviously not the case for Jon and Gendry, since Ned would have noticed ;) . The dizygotic twins arise from two different eggs which were fertilized by two different sperm cells. On average, these twins share 50% of their DNA, compared to the 100% DNA monozygotic twins share.

Sharing 50% of your DNA means you still look a lot alike, more than, say, two sisters a year apart normally would. For dizygotic twins, any traits which are genetically determined, will be 50% concordant. Some things are determined by your genes, which, for the monozygotic and dizygotic twins, I explains in ratios. Other things are determined by the environment, which naturally will have a lower percentage (no numbers are known to me).

Hair colour, for instance, is genetically determined.

If Jon and Gendry were to have been dizygotic twins (or triplets born from trizygotic fertilization), they would have been at least genetically the same for 50%, and they would look alike more than brothers and sisters usually do. Brothers and sisters usually are to be recognized as brothers and sisters, and Ned, who has cared for Jon, who looks like Arya, who looks like Lyanna, whom Ned had known for 16 years before she died, would have recognized any similarity between the two boys.

I studies genetics, and I'm sorry, but for as far as multiple birth go in the ToW (and I believe R+L=J), I must say no.

The Baratheons have Targ heritage. That is the basis of their claim to the throne.

I know the Baratheons have Targ heritage. It all started with Orys Baratheon, Aegon's supposed half brother. If he was indeed Aegon's half-brother, the Targ blood started there. Next we had Rhaelle Targaryen, who married the ruling Lord Baratheon.

However, the seed is strong. We are all assuming that Rhaella had the Valyrian colouring, which she probably had, since Egg had it, and Jaehaerys II as well. But the man Rhaelle married had black hair, most likely, as a Baratheon. And that's the colour passed on to his son (Steffon) and eventually his grandchildren (Robert, Stannis and Renly).

It's because of Rhaelle Robert had any claim to the throne (though, if viewed by law, Robert should not have been allowed to take the throne, due to his kinslaying and his rebelling and such; he's only ruling due to the laws of conquest). So Roberts original claim came through the marriage of his grandparents.

Well then, presumably there is black hair "somewhere in the family". Note that the woman he remembers might not be his mother.

And that black hair, if you view the Targaryen family tree closesly, doesn't appear anywhere. It only appears after Rhaelle married her Storm Lord, which eventually results into Robert, Stannis and Renly (their father Steffon died the year after Renly was born, so he can't be the father). Targaryens all have had the typical Valyrian colouring, with few exceptions several generations back.

When Daeron II married the Dornish Myriah Martell, his firstborn son had his mother's looks if we look at the colouring. His sons, however, had a combination of Valyrian and Martell looks. It is possible Baelor married an unknown sister, or a Velaryon, which would result in the return of the Valyrian looks. It could also have been passed on in a dormant form by Daeron II.

Daeron's other three sons and only known daughter had the typical Targaryen looks. Yet Maekars eldest son had brown hair, which could originate from grandmother Myriah.

Everywhere else in the family tree, the Targaryens had the typical Valyrian looks - that's what they are known for after all, besides their dragons. Dunk recognizes the princeling Aerion immediately, and not because he's showing any arms on his clothing. It was simply because of the way he looked.

The woman he remembers might not be his mother. But if you were Ned, and you had to hide multiple bastards, why take one home to safety with you, and leave the other one with a serving wench in the poorer parts of KL? Also, Gendry looks nothing like a Targ, and nothing like Lyanna. Although I've already explained he couldn't possibly be a child of Lyanna and Roberts due to genetics, I'm emphasizing it here.

[Alhazred]

Whoever provided for Gendry did not necessarily tried to hide Gendry's origin. They tried to hide their own identity.

What other motive do you imagine? Let us suppose it really was Varys. What other motive do you imagine? Why would Varys hide his own identity if not to hide his connection, and hence Gendry's connection, to King Robert? Will rumours of niceness to random orphans harm his reputation with the Evil Masterminds Club?

When Ned talked to Tobho, it seemed to be clear Tobho had an indication to who Gendry was.

Given the circumstances: a bastard child with a mysterious anonymous benefactor, it is likely that Tobho might speculate as to Gendry's origins. The benefactor does not want such speculations. For that reason, Tobho is told not to speculate and not to talk. This, by itself, is no guarantee that the speculations will be correct.

Gendry is a bit younger than Jon. Jon is 14 at the beginning of aGoT. This is when 298 has only just started for a couple of weeks. Jon turns 15 somewhere during 298 AL.

I am not aware that the books contain any information this precise about Gendry's age. IIRC, he is estimated to be the same age as Rob, and Rob is roughly the same age as Jon. But these are estimates, and could be off by a year. Or two years. IIRC, Gendry is a pretty big guy. Arguments that he cannot possibly be the same age as Jon -- or older -- are pretty hard to swallow. Even Gendry may not know for certain his true age. If "mom" tells you how old you are, you believe it. And nudging ones age by a year seems a fairly basic trick for one who seeks to hide a child's origins (see Alayne Stone). And did Gendry even ever say how old he was? I don't remember. And of course Jon may not know his true birthday either.

Also, Gendry can't possibly be related to Jon that directly. You have two types of twins: the homozygotic, and the dizygotic twins.

There is no need for excessive techno-verbiage. The two types of twins, in layman's talk, are "Identical" and "fraternal". "Fraternal" twins have the exact same genetic relationship as ordinary siblings do. This means that sometimes they look very similar, sometimes slightly similar, and sometimes not very similar at all, just as do ordinary sisters and brothers born, say, a year apart. That's why they are called "fraternal" twins.

Sharing 50% of your DNA means you still look a lot alike, more than, say, two sisters a year apart normally would.

Actually it means the exact same thing (except in the case of half-sisters who share roughly 25% of the DNA). Being the exact same age will tend to increase the resemblance, but this will be a minimal factor the more time passes. Fraternal twins can sometimes look very different for the exact same reasons that full brothers can sometimes look very different.

Hair colour, for instance, is genetically determined.

And yet, full siblings can indeed have different hair coloring; as can fraternal twins, for the exact same genetic reasons.

Brothers and sisters usually are to be recognized as brothers and sisters, and Ned, who has cared for Jon, who looks like Arya, who looks like Lyanna, whom Ned had known for 16 years before she died, would have recognized any similarity between the two boys.

He did indeed notice the black hair, which is indeed a similarity. And it is strangers who always ask me if me and my brother are twins; I don't think we look alike at all; though I once saw a man so uncannily like my brother that I stared at him for half a minute before I decided it was not so. What he may have noticed is Targ Features + Black Hair -- a combo that makes him look vaguely like Robert. He saw what he expected to see.

I know the Baratheons have Targ heritage. It all started with Orys Baratheon, Aegon's supposed half brother.

Right. And it did not end there. And I hear from The Princess and the Queen that

there was another Targ intermarriage at around the time of the First Dance of the Dragons

So when Egg's daughter (King Robert's grandmother) married Lord Baratheon, there was strong Targ heritage in both the father and the mother. Then their mostly-Targ son, Steffon Baratheon, marries Lady Estermont, whose heritage is largely unknown.

But the man Rhaelle married had black hair, most likely, as a Baratheon. And that's the colour passed on to his son (Steffon) and eventually his grandchildren (Robert, Stannis and Renly).

So, you admit it IS possible for blonde Targ to give birth to a black-haired child.

And that black hair, if you view the Targaryen family tree closesly, doesn't appear anywhere.

You already acknowledged one exception. Rhaelle Targaryen marries her half Targ Storm Lord, and produces black haired child.

When Daeron II married the Dornish Myriah Martell, his firstborn son had his mother's looks if we look at the colouring.

So that's two exceptions. Looks to me like this "rule" can have as many exceptions as GRRM wants. And Myriah Martell's heritage has been passed on to all surviving Targs.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

What other motive do you imagine? Let us suppose it really was Varys. What other motive do you imagine? Why would Varys hide his own identity if not to hide his connection, and hence Gendry's connection, to King Robert? Will rumours of niceness to random orphans harm his reputation with the Evil Masterminds Club?

It could have very easily been a high lord, whose bastard had become an orphan, and who he wanted provided for, but he did not want it known the child was his.

Varys, in almost everything that he does, goes around indisguises. Why wait for Tyrion in a disguise when they meet to visit Shae for the first time in her manse? To assure people did not think he had left the Red Keep? For that, he had to use a secret passage. Yet Tyrion sees Varys leaving his own chambers in a disguise at one point as well.

The fact that, if it was indeed Varys caring for Gendry, it would not automatically mean the bastard is Roberts. Robert is not the only lord in KL, you know.

Given the circumstances: a bastard child with a mysterious anonymous benefactor, it is likely that Tobho might speculate as to Gendry's origins. The benefactor does not want such speculations. For that reason, Tobho is told not to speculate and not to talk. This, by itself, is no guarantee that the speculations will be correct.

Tobho could suspect the child had a rich father. It does not automatically mean the child is a bastard of a king.

I am not aware that the books contain any information this precise about Gendry's age. IIRC, he is estimated to be the same age as Rob, and Rob is roughly the same age as Jon. But these are estimates, and could be off by a year. Or two years. IIRC, Gendry is a pretty big guy. Arguments that he cannot possibly be the same age as Jon -- or older -- are pretty hard to swallow. Even Gendry may not know for certain his true age. If "mom" tells you how old you are, you believe it. And nudging ones age by a year seems a fairly basic trick for one who seeks to hide a child's origins (see Alayne Stone). And did Gendry even ever say how old he was? I don't remember. And of course Jon may not know his true birthday either.

GRRM told us Jon´s birth date (1 or 2 months within the Sack).

There is no need for excessive techno-verbiage. The two types of twins, in layman's talk, are "Identical" and "fraternal". "Fraternal" twins have the exact same genetic relationship as ordinary siblings do. This means that sometimes they look very similar, sometimes slightly similar, and sometimes not very similar at all, just as do ordinary sisters and brothers born, say, a year apart. That's why they are called "fraternal" twins.

I'm sorry, but I study this stuff at the university, so when I talk about it, those terms just come out.

He did indeed notice the black hair, which is indeed a similarity. And it is strangers who always ask me if me and my brother are twins; I don't think we look alike at all; though I once saw a man so uncannily like my brother that I stared at him for half a minute before I decided it was not so. What he may have noticed is Targ Features + Black Hair -- a combo that makes him look vaguely like Robert. He saw what he expected to see.

Ned did not see what he expected to see. He had no idea what to expect!

Right. And it did not end there. And I hear from The Princess and the Queen that

there was another Targ intermarriage at around the time of the First Dance of the Dragons

So when Egg's daughter (King Robert's grandmother) married Lord Baratheon, there was strong Targ heritage in both the father and the mother. Then their mostly-Targ son, Steffon Baratheon, marries Lady Estermont, whose heritage is largely unknown.

Yes, I know, if I'm not mistaken, I was the one who posted it :p But you err on one point. It was a female Baratheon who married a male Targaryen, and all their known offspring died in the Dance, or before. So the only Targ heritage Steffon might have, comes from Orys and Rhaelle. The only strong Targ heritage came from Rhaelle. Steffon, as once mentioned by Ned somewhere, had black hair as well. It's obvious that in their coupling, the Baratheon features won from the Targaryen features.

So, you admit it IS possible for blonde Targ to give birth to a black-haired child.

I never said they couldn't.

You already acknowledged one exception. Rhaelle Targaryen marries her half Targ Storm Lord, and produces black haired child.

I meant in the main family tree. I guess I should have been more clear about that. And again, Rhaelle's husband was not half Targaryen, IF Orys was Aegon half-brother, the bloodconnection goes waaaaaaaaaaay back, over many, many, many generations. So in reality, the Targaryen blood in the veins of Rhaelle's husband, are almost zero.

So that's two exceptions. Looks to me like this "rule" can have as many exceptions as GRRM wants. And Myriah Martell's heritage has been passed on to all surviving Targs.

When coupled with the Dornish, it happened twice. But Daeron, Egg's brother, was described as having brown hair. So where Baelor's sons. That is what Myriah passed on to her children/grandchildren. Not black hair.

[lmgross25]

Ok I had to stop reading because some of the things being said are so (sigh) it's not even funny. First of all Bittersteel was born with purple eyes and black hair. He was the son of Aegon IV and Barbra Bracken.

Gendry's arc is leading to the wall. There is something that Jon snow said that has always stuck in my head and seemed to keep coming true. He told arya that different roads lead to the same castle. It telling that Gendry was marked for the wall now that he's a bandit knight he's been told that he's either going to get hanged or end up on the wall. ITs telling that gendry studied under a master amour and that the last amour on the wall was a Baratheon man. In the north the red star is sacred to the smith. Jon is going to need someone to reforge Dark Sister to be Lightbringer. As a baratheon bastard and Jon is a stark bastard but both share bastard targ blood as well. They are cousins.Like Aegon the conqueor and his bastard brother Gendry is Jon's unrecognized bastard cousin. I agree that the most logical point would be for the storm lords rally around him.

DID ALL OF YOU PEOPLE MISS WHAT CON SAID IN THE MEETING WITH THE GC BEFORE TALKING ABOUT STORMING STORMSEND? He told the lord to bring the highborn captives from the camps. He told the lord that they would take the castle by guile. They have Edric Storm that's their ticket into the castle. The story that Adrianne was told was a lie. They made the story bloody because that would make Aegon look strong not weak by using craven tricks. hiding behind the pants of a little boy to gain him access were are slaughters the lot of them once inside their walls. That's the part of the lie that is spiced with truth.

Gendry's skill is gong to be needed to turn dragon glass amour and swords. THe watch can make the arrow heads. Gendry might not be able to sit in a hight lord's council but as a bandit on the riverlands he has knowledge that jon is going find valuable when he marches south. Gendry will know about the hidey holes and the off the beaten trail. ways that allow jon to move his army through the riverlands undetected. Allowing him to cut supply lines or sneak up on the enemy at need. So no gendry isn't going to storms end he's going to eventually end up with arya at the twins. His arms the bull quarted with a direwolve with a trout in it's mouth.

[lmgross25]

I wanted to say the the storm lords should rally around Edric Storm not Gendry. Gendry is going to be Jon's Great Jon his strong right hand

[Iona]

snippety snip

1. Your post could use some structuring, in the future, I warmly recommend the use of the enter button once in a while to make the message more readable.

2. Using caps locked sentences in order to whore attention to point out that people don't see the same things in the text as you is just... *sigh* ...let me use the word "immature" here. You then expect everyone to take your theory seriously?

3. In addition to nr. 2, opening your post by saying people were so stupid you had to stop reading = extremely rude. Didn't your momma teach you any manners?

Just to give you a taste, I'll answer you, simulating your style.

The things I read in your post were so stupid I had to stop reading. What on earth has Gendry the smith to do with dragon glass? It's obsidian - you don't bang it with a hammer, it will go to bloody shatters! DID YOU MISS THE CHAPTER WHERE JON FINDS THE CACHE AT THE FIST OF THE FIRST MEN?

[lmgross25]

I'm sorry that I offended you. That wasn't my attention but the cap button was stuck. I wan't trying to piss anyone off. Also about the enter button. I'll fix it doesn't make my point any less valid/ If the glass is go delicate how in the hell does on go about mining it. Look at what jon dreamed on of his last POV's.

Jon was standing on the wall amour in Black Ice. obsidian in old valyian, and I do mean old not high valyrian look at the text in ASOS Mel talking in chambers with Aemon and Sam in attendance. Frozen Fire that's what the word means. So he's standing on the wall armored in Frozen fire their hasto be way to rework. The pic depicting obsidian is on WIKI look at that dagger for a moment. Note the ripples and it looks like someone shaped the damn thing into the shape of a dagger and the thing was filed. So maybe he doesn't have to use a hammer to beat the thing into a sword. It still makes sense that he head to the wall. Winterfell and the wall both need an experienced armor.

My mother did teach me better but when people start applying real world genetics to a mythical word it's stupid. I think people should stick to the text. All these baby swapping theories it's too much. Gendry if he's got royal blood at all it would be from cersi meaning both parents. She tells ned that her brother took her to a cleansing woman and had to baby removed. That's the only thing i could think of plus that explains how Vary's knows about the boy.

Plus your not my mother and if I WANT TO CAP EVERY WORD THAT"S MY BUSINESS.

Now to Jon and the business about the arrowheads. They don't work any metal (COFT) so they had to use something to shape the arrowheads. Right or am I mistaken. The COFT used magic but the Watch don't have any magic users on the wall besides Mel. I don't know if that will help. So u have to have a way of working the glass besides metal. And yes of course I read the text regarding Jon he's my favorite character. It used to be Dany but she became very I don't know just not my fav anymore it's jon. I have a very invested thoughts regarding Jon. I have a theory that I won't post here. I've already got a thread about Jon. Anyway that what I have to say. Sir Knight

[aryagonnakill]

Now to Jon and the business about the arrowheads. They don't work any metal (COFT) so they had to use something to shape the arrowheads. Right or am I mistaken. The COFT used magic but the Watch don't have any magic users on the wall besides Mel. I don't know if that will help. So u have to have a way of working the glass besides metal. And yes of course I read the text regarding Jon he's my favorite character. It used to be Dany but she became very I don't know just not my fav anymore it's jon. I have a very invested thoughts regarding Jon. I have a theory that I won't post here. I've already got a thread about Jon. Anyway that what I have to say. Sir Knight

Obsidian is really cool, its real, you can buy some really cheap. Cave men made obsidian weapons that were sharper than doctors scalpels are today. They are made by hitting the obsidian with increasingly smaller and softer items, starting with rock and going down to bone and in some cases then wood. The obsidian chips away in uneven pieces and is rippled just like it is described in the text. No magic no metal.

Edit: Of course, I am not denying they use magic somehow for other things. How they do this magic/ where it comes from we cannot know for sure yet.

[lmgross25]

Does it say in the text that they bang the glass against softer materials? if that is the case please show me the text because your memory seems to be much better than mine and I am always willing to learn from my betters. Now I could be mistaken but I don't remember anyone saying they use softer materials. I do remember Ludwin said they worked no metal and that they practiced magic. Once again I ask if they work no metal how do they get the material from the earth. Like from the caves in the mountain range beyond the wall in other places. Of course they could have rocks and tree branches for such work.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

So maybe he doesn't have to use a hammer to beat the thing into a sword. It still makes sense that he head to the wall. Winterfell and the wall both need an experienced armor.

My mother did teach me better but when people start applying real world genetics to a mythical word it's stupid. I think people should stick to the text. All these baby swapping theories it's too much. Gendry if he's got royal blood at all it would be from cersi meaning both parents. She tells ned that her brother took her to a cleansing woman and had to baby removed. That's the only thing i could think of plus that explains how Vary's knows about the boy.

I don't think Gendry's arc is heading to the Wall anymore. He's been in the riverlands for a while now. He might have some business with Jaime and Brienne. He might end up for taking over for lady Stoneheart. But the Wall was never Gendry's own choice, so why continue the journey?

Why is it stupid to apply real world genetics to this story? GRRM writes this series as truthfully as he can to the real world way of things. Genetics does apply there.

And I'm sorry, but are you now suggesting that Gendry is Cersei's son? She wasn't visibly pregnant at the time, otherwise Robert would have known. The embryo removed by the cleansing woman would not have been able to live on its own. The heart, the lungs, the eyes... Non of that is anywhere near finished with developing at that point.

Varys has eyes everywhere, so he would know if a woman got pregnant after sleeping with the king.

[lmgross25]

No I am by no means saying that Gendry is Cersi son. I am just pointing out that some are arguing that Gendry isCersi's. NOt in this post on you tube. This mother and son are saying that Gendry is really Cersi's. I think that the boy is just roberts's bastard. Yet I would like to point your attention to something about Gendry and why else I feel that he's headed to the wall.

For starters he was raised in the faith of the seven. Then when he's running with the BWB he changes his religions. It's been stated in text that as a bandit his life can only end in two way either by being hanged or to spend his life on the wall. Then there is the fact that he was trained by a master smith. The very smith that reforged Ice. Gendry is needed on the wall. His skill with metal and he can deal with mel. If at the wall she's met Renly which is who Gendry looks like and Renly looked like a young Renly yet she could see that the boy was roberts get. There is magic in Kings Blood. Then there is the fact that there is a bond between Ayra and Gendry. He knows that she has a bastard brother on the wall. Gendry was the only one that knew who she was. Different roads often times lead to the same castle. They need a smith on the wall. The Red star sacred to the smith is the thief in the North.

I don't think that Gendry is going to like what the BWB are starting to stand for. They are hanging innocent people. Brianne was upholding her oath. Both to Jamie and Lady Stark. It's Cat that is being an oathbreaker. Gendry joined the BWB because they were honorable. There is no honor amongest thieves anymore under lady stone heart. She's got no mercy in her left. So no I don't think that he will be spending much more time with Lady Stoneheart.

If not Gendry who is there to work the forge at the wall? Do you know of any other trained smiths that are being sent to the wall that we have seen that has kings blood in his veins? IF you have I would love to know where M'lord.

[Iona]

@imgross

As far as mining obsidian, it's a form of molten rock that you need to chip off if you want to have a piece of it to work it into an object. Aryagonnakill gave a very good description on how it's worked, the same applies for other materials as well. Finns in the stone age used quartz in the same way - it's easy to work into what shape you want by hitting it with another rock.

I am nobody's mother, not IRL or on the forums, but I do not let it stop me from instructing other people on how to behave in a way that benefits all parties. I was taught that courtesy opens more doors that insults, and well-structured, polite messages on these forums are more likely to result in constructive discussion than posts that attack other users or flame with caps lock. Wanting to caps lock is your choice, but it's like to get you banned if you insist on doing it, since it's considered yelling and thuse rude in all forms of written communication.

As far as your theory goes, I think you are mixing up the features of obsidian and Valyrian steel. We've been given no reason to assume obsidian has special properties in ASOIAF, so we consider it to be same as it is in our world. Some believe Gendry might have been taught the spells needed to work Valyrian steel by Tobho Mott, who seems to be one of the very few who still can do it, and I do believe that this might be something Gendry is needed for later on (reforging Ice is something that is often brought up).

Rhaenys_Targaryen has a point with regards to Gendry being Robert and Cersei's son. Having her carry the child to a point in which he was able to survive out of the mother's womb and then getting rid of it was not possible for a queen. Her pregnancy would have been noticed and she would have had to give birth to the child. The cleansing Cersei had done was an abortion, performed most likely as soon as she noticed she was no longer getting her moon blood.

ETA: I see you answered the Cersei/Gendry -mother stuff already, so never mind that!