A Song of Ice and Fire and feminism.

[E-Ro]

1. Totally real. They shoot several gorillas out of cannons to the musical stylings of Bon Jovi.

2. I see you've glossed over the passages in which it is noted that Stannis seems to think women are some sort of alien species he's aghast at having to interact with.

1. I hate to break this to you, and this may come as a shock, but I know how to use google dammit.

2. I disagree. Stannis loves women.

[butterbumps!]

well, you twisted my arm. From "the King's Prize:"

This southron king seemed to be one of those men to whom women are another race, as strange and unfathomable as giants and grumkins and the children of the forest. The She-Bear made him grind his teeth as well.

ETA: in the event you actually might challenge this, I'd like to point out Stannis' reaction to Gilly as well. Brah, he doesn't "love women." He tolerates Mel, but otherwise women are just another "aberrant" phenomenon he neither understands nor cares for particularly.

[E-Ro]

well, you twisted my arm. From "the King's Prize:"

This southron king seemed to be one of those men to whom women are another race, as strange and unfathomable as giants and grumkins and the children of the forest. The She-Bear made him grind his teeth as well.

I would hardly say this means anything. Because he "seems" to be one of those men doesn't mean he is one. And he grinds his teeth all the time, I just don't think him grinding his teeth at the she bear is indicative of anything.

[Sansa_Stark]

Man Stannis is one awkward dude

[E-Ro]

ETA: in the event you actually might challenge this, I'd like to point out Stannis' reaction to Gilly as well. Brah, he doesn't "love women." He tolerates Mel, but otherwise women are just another "aberrant" phenomenon he neither understands nor cares for particularly.

Ugh, fine. I will back off on this one, if it was anyone else I would fight harder.

At least I figured out the ape dilemma.

[KOM]

Explore the characters and how they relate to the different waves of feminism.

[Asha Greyjoy:Feminist Icon]

oh actually, if the OP had proffered Dany, I'd have supported that decision too, but I think the focus of the essay would be a lot different. That is, I think the major feminist issue Dany's arc challenges is motherhood, and does so from a philosophical rather than sociological standpoint: it's the paradox of death from life, which is almost a theological conversation (as in the concept of death from life and vice versa is more harmonious in Eastern thought and religion). This facet is echoed in the Kindly Man's warning to Arya about the limited quantity of female Faceless Men: women create life, which is ostensibly incompatible with causing death.

But for Dany, the creation-destruction paradox is precisely what gives her such power; that she "birthed" death-causing weaponry gives her nearly unfettered power, though she doesn't quite realize just how limitless it truly is yet. From a social norms standpoint, her power in its own right means that she can eschew any custom and rewrite the rules along her terms, but given that she hasn't fully embraced the destruction side, she doesn't quite realize this yet. Anyway, I think that's the major angle I'd take if Dany was offered up initially.

Marry me.

[voodooqueen126]

No, not unless narcissists are more prone to incest than the general population.

I remember once on Jstor, I saw, but didn't read, an academic journal article with a title that went along the lines of 'incest as a metaphor for narcissism in literature'

[Sullen]

The role of women in the Faith (and ASoIaFian religions in general) might be an interesting subject...

[krtmd]

I remember once on Jstor, I saw, but didn't read, an academic journal article with a title that went along the lines of 'incest as a metaphor for narcissism in literature'

Indeed. It's certainly used as a metaphor for narcissism in Paradise Lost and the Wagner opera Die Walkure (The Valkyrie). And of course, there's the myth of Narcissus, who falls in love with his own reflection in a pool. In some ways, I see Cersei as Narcissus and Jaime as Echo. There's also a version where Narcissus falls in love with his twin sister. GRRM has just played with this theme, and made the female (Cersei) the narcissist and the male (Jaime) the reflection. Of course, once Jaime is maimed and refuses to play Cersei's game, she rejects him. He's no longer her reflection.

[FoolishOwl]

Of course, once Jaime is maimed and refuses to play Cersei's game, she rejects him. He's no longer her reflection.

I hadn't thought of a direct connection between his maiming and his disaffection from his sister, but that seems significant, now that you mention it. Also, as Cersei said, when they were born, Jaime was holding Cersei's heel with one hand.

[Rains]

I have fourteen pages of notes.

I love you guys <3

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Wow, the feminist discussion ends with Stannis. Who would have thought. Good luck with the paper Rains!

[All Men Must Rhyme]

I'd actually like to read it when you're done, it's always an interesting topic. Let us know how you get on :) Good luck :)

[Winter's Knight]

I'd actually like to read it when you're done, it's always an interesting topic. Let us know how you get on :) Good luck :)

Same here. Give us a peek now and then.

[Kyoshi]

I joined this forum only recently. As a result I'm always late to these amazing topics but I'll throw my groats anyway:

Cersei is the least feminist character you could use IMO. She succumbs to inevitable sexist text often seen in male-produced literature. This is one of those times where Martin had an opportunity to truly create something dynamic yet it was collapsed by the three basic flaws used in defining women in literature: wanton woman, superstitious woman, ignorant woman.

Wanton Woman: From Jaime to the Kettleblacks, her biggest weapon seems to be the classic seductive nature of an overly pampered, beautiful woman. She even tells Sansa the best weapon any woman has is between her legs.

Superstitious Woman: Her entire life is basically governed by the prophesy told her by an "old hag". Not only does Cersei seem active in engineering the fulfillment of the prophesy, she allows it destroy every relationship and alliance she has.

Ignorant Woman: I don't even know where to begin. All her POV chapters. Most prominent, the fact that she wasn't aware that arming the Faith was the thing that almost overthrew the Targaryens, thus necessitating Maegor's Law/Decree or whatever it's called in the books. Maegor, Baelor and Aegon are among the most quoted rulers in the series. To suggest that Cersei was ignorant of their legacies just seemed a bit too contrived.

Moreover, as opposed to characters like Catelyn, who seek only to define themselves as they simply are, Cersei demonstrates a serious case of what I've seen described as penis-envy. She in no way demonstrates pride in being a woman in power, let alone a woman. That's not "feministic", that's the opposite.

[Greystark Reborn]

I think it the series is actually very much a feminist piece, here are my reasons:

• We are reading about women in a setting like the European middle ages.
  
• Many of the women that we are introduced to come from different backgrounds, cultures, and classes. None of them are cookie-cutter, just like My Little Pony, it's different ways of being a person.
  
• The ratio of men to women dying is pretty even.
  
• Rape throughout the series is used by nonPOV characters, with the exception of Cersei, is a means of psychological warfare to demoralizes combatants of the regions of they are acting.
  
• Most the characters who are prostitutes, do have agency, we can see this with Shae, as well as goals, such as Chayaya (I think I spelled her name right), who wants to learn how to read.
  
• Speaking of agency, we actually see many women who have agency, as opposed to many noble women characters, who have very little agency.
  
• Many of the female characters who had power, Cersei and Lysa, could be examples how the past 20 years in Westeros can corrupt any person in power, man or woman. Or these are women have internalized misogny and trying to uphold traditional roles that they do not make effective leaders. We can see the opposite of this in Asha Greyjoy.