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Why did the Kings guard at the ToJ try keep Eddard away from Lyanna?


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#1 mikey113

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 08:38 PM

Why did the Kings guard at the ToJ try keep Eddard away from Lyanna? Its not like she was in any danger from him.



#2 Jairion Lannister

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 08:44 PM

When I thought about the whole thing this part was suspicious. They knew Ned wasn't going to hurt her, so why keep him away? It kind of implies that there's a bigger reason for them not wanting to see her, and I don't just mean Jon. Ned wouldn't have been surprised that there was a child when he saw it and he'd have known Lyanna (presumably) fled with Rhaegar at her own free will, so it was hardly anything to hide. So, what did they have to hide and try to keep him away from? I reckon there's more to the whole thing than just Jon's birth.



#3 Roddy the Ruin

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 08:52 PM

They were protecting their true king

#4 FittleLinger

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 08:57 PM

Ned was the right hand and chief general of the army of the person who was usurping the throne and likely to kill all Targaryens. I even think that Ned's decision (to keep baby Jon in secret from Robert) wasn't an easy decision and if it was not for the promise, and witnessing the faith of Elia and her kids,  his absolute loyalty might have made him actually turn over Jon to Robert.



#5 Fire Eater

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 08:59 PM

They didn't get a lot of info about Ned given he was Rickard's second son. All they knew was that he is Robert's BF since childhood, was fostered by Jon Arryn, the mastermind behind Robert's Rebellion and he was charged with taking KL. They didn't know if Ned would have delivered Jon to Robert.


Edited by Fire Eater, 29 January 2014 - 09:00 PM.


#6 Fool of a Book

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 09:01 PM

Crackpot

 

Bloodraven had been skinchanging Aerys and/or Rhaegar possibly with their knowledge and consent.  BR knew Lyanna was marked to be kidnapped by someone North of the Wall, and the Starks have possibly been allowing their women to be sent there as sacrifices of a sort for generations. The blue rose wreath was a sign to Lyanna that BR knew her fate.

 

So Rhaegar was actually saving her from being sent North.  It's possible she had already been kidnapped when he rescued her, with BR's guidance.

 

And I think Val is Lyanna's daughter.

 

/crackpot



#7 ladytiger

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 09:26 PM

Crackpot

 

Bloodraven had been skinchanging Aerys and/or Rhaegar possibly with their knowledge and consent.  BR knew Lyanna was marked to be kidnapped by someone North of the Wall, and the Starks have possibly been allowing their women to be sent there as sacrifices of a sort for generations. The blue rose wreath was a sign to Lyanna that BR knew her fate.

 

So Rhaegar was actually saving her from being sent North.  It's possible she had already been kidnapped when he rescued her, with BR's guidance.

 

And I think Val is Lyanna's daughter.

 

/crackpot

Whoa whoa whoa...what!? 

 

So basically the opposite of Craster???



#8 mambru

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 09:36 PM

They didn't get a lot of info about Ned given he was Rickard's second son. All they knew was that he is Robert's BF since childhood, was fostered by Jon Arryn, the mastermind behind Robert's Rebellion and he was charged with taking KL. They didn't know if Ned would have delivered Jon to Robert.

 

You know, they had a reliable source for exactly what kind of person Ned was in the Tower with them. They'd lived with her for months and should have formed an opinion by then as to what her judgement was like. IMO, I can't see why they didn't say to Ned, "Your sister wants to speak to you. If you will accept our word of honor as KG that we will not harm you or take you hostage, you may leave your weapons outside and come in alone to speak to her." They could have hoped that Lyanna might convince Ned to vow silence about Jon's existence until they can smuggle him safely out of the country, or even maybe help them to do so. And if Lyanna failed to convince him - they could honorably escort Ned outside to his friends, hand him his sword, and THEN try to kill them all.

 

IMO, the only reason they didn't try such a sensible plan was that they considered Lyanna a prisoner whose wishes and judgement they had no obligation to respect.



#9 Table8

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 09:39 PM

Ned was the right hand and chief general of the army of the person who was usurping the throne and likely to kill all Targaryens. I even think that Ned's decision (to keep baby Jon in secret from Robert) wasn't an easy decision and if it was not for the promise, and witnessing the faith of Elia and her kids,  his absolute loyalty might have made him actually turn over Jon to Robert.


This. Nothing to see here...

#10 Lyse Stark

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 09:48 PM

I think that they were afraid that Ned would try to kill Lyanna and Jon, but the fact that Jon was spirited away to Winterfell and lived a bastard's life there sure speaks to how much he loved her to the point that he would conceal Rhaegar's son by her from Robert.

#11 Fire Eater

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 10:05 PM

I think that they were afraid that Ned would try to kill Lyanna and Jon, but the fact that Jon was spirited away to Winterfell and lived a bastard's life there sure speaks to how much he loved her to the point that he would conceal Rhaegar's son by her from Robert.

I don't think they thought Ned would kill Jon just turn him in to Robert, which would be a death sentence. Besides, I think it harder that they thought he would kill his own sister as the kinslayer is cursed in the eyes of gods and men.

 

As to the latter, his actions to protect Jon did permanent damage to his marriage, and his honor and reputation.


Edited by Fire Eater, 29 January 2014 - 10:06 PM.


#12 FittleLinger

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 10:11 PM

I don't think they thought Ned would kill Jon just turn him in to Robert, which would be a death sentence. Besides, I think it harder that they thought he would kill his own sister as the kinslayer is cursed in the eyes of gods and men.

 

As to the latter, his actions to protect Jon did permanent damage to his marriage, and his honor and reputation.

 

Honestly, I don't think they thought too much on the subject. You just don't hand the royal heir to the general of the rebel army. Possible judge of character and family relations are irrelevant.



#13 Gneisenau

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 10:19 PM

Because Ned is the usurper's dog, but seriously why would the KG let the enemy general see the King's mom and the King himself ?



#14 mambru

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 10:35 PM

Because Ned is the usurper's dog, but seriously why would the KG let the enemy general see the King's mom and the King himself ?

 

 

Because if the KG thinks Jon is their king, they probably realize that the KG, the King's Mom, and the King himself are all in VERY dire straits right now?

 

The whole country except Dragonstone now belongs to the Usurper. Jon needs safety. He can't hide in the Tower forever.  Even if the KG fight Ned and win, one or more of them are likely to die in the fight and leave the King with even LESS protection than he has already. If Lyanna could peacably convince Ned to let Jon escape with them - maybe even HELP them escape - it would be much better  for Jon to have three live and unwounded KG protecting him when he escapes, instead of one wounded survivor from the fight with his uncle.

 

If there was even a SMALL chance of Lyanna being able to convince Ned - they should have let her try. If she'd managed to convince Ned, well and good. If she doesn't, well, they go with plan A - kill Ned and friends. What did they have to lose at that point by letting Lyanna TRY to negotiate?


Edited by mambru, 29 January 2014 - 10:36 PM.


#15 King Pellinore

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 10:40 PM

They were protecting members of the King's family.  What more reason do you need?



#16 Jairion Lannister

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 10:45 PM

What were they 'protecting' him from? They might have not known Ned Stark personally, but they'd have probably heard or known that he was an honourable man. Provided he was guarded, what would he do with Jon? He wasn't going to kill him. He wasn't going to run away with him if the KG were still alive. They knew Ned was Robert's man, but they'd have also known that Aerys burned Ned's father alive. They were Targaryen till their deaths, but they weren't idiots: they'd have known that Ned went to war for a good reason from the start and that he wasn't going to murder Jon if he was the king.

 

There's definitely something a tad strange about the whole thing.



#17 The Wolves

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 10:46 PM

Ned was the right hand and chief general of the army of the person who was usurping the throne and likely to kill all Targaryens. I even think that Ned's decision (to keep baby Jon in secret from Robert) wasn't an easy decision and if it was not for the promise, and witnessing the faith of Elia and her kids,  his absolute loyalty might have made him actually turn over Jon to Robert.


I think people overestimate Ned's loyalty to Robert. Yes Ned is loyal to Robert but first and foremost he's loyal to his family. Lyanna and Ned were close to each other, Ned would never never NEVER hand Jon over to someone who would hurt him, with or without Lyanna's promise.

Also wasn't Lyanna yelling for Ned? I'm sure the Kingsguard knew Ned wouldn't hurt his sister or her baby and by right Ned is the legal guardian of Lyanna's child if the child's paternal family is not possible of taking care of it.

#18 Pufferian

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 11:08 PM

Isn't it likely that Ned, thinking that Lyanna had been kidnapped and held against her will, arrived in full attack mode and there wasn't much opportunity for conversation or negotiation?



#19 FittleLinger

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 11:16 PM

I think people overestimate Ned's loyalty to Robert. Yes Ned is loyal to Robert but first and foremost he's loyal to his family. Lyanna and Ned were close to each other, Ned would never never NEVER hand Jon over to someone who would hurt him, with or without Lyanna's promise.

Also wasn't Lyanna yelling for Ned? I'm sure the Kingsguard knew Ned wouldn't hurt his sister or her baby and by right Ned is the legal guardian of Lyanna's child if the child's paternal family is not possible of taking care of it.

 

 

All I'm saying is that I'm sure Ned had thoughts on the situation that involved neither betraying Robert nor Lyanna. Unfortunatelly, that was impossible, so he did what he did.

I'm not saying that Ned was loyal to the point of utter stupidity or to the point of sacrificing his own kin, who even happend to be an innocent infant.



#20 Ramsay's Third Nipple

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 11:29 PM

Isn't it likely that Ned, thinking that Lyanna had been kidnapped and held against her will, arrived in full attack mode and there wasn't much opportunity for conversation or negotiation?

Didn't he give them 3 chances to bend the knee?

 

 

At least that's implied in his fever dream.