Green and Black

[Clarrisa]

I understand the colors coming from the Princess and the Queen, but the colors are used so much through the ASoIaF books that I wonder if they have some kind of meaning :

Tyrion - one black eye, one green

Renly - there are many descriptions of his black hair and green armor

"was splendid in his green doublet with his long black hair ...jagged chunks of black diamonds studded his swordbelt...royal pavilion of green silk..."

And Renly's death described by Catelyn "She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering,shivering,something was queer, was wrong, and then she saw Renly's sword still in its scabbord "

Shaggy Dog - black fur, green eyes

Rheagal - green dragon, black teeth

Maester Luwin - In his study is a green jar with black arrowheads

Guildhall of the Alchemists - "columns of green fire danced around black metal columns"

Craster's Keep - Jon sees "through shimmering greenery, the black tents of his brothers"

House Mormont - their sigil is a black bear on a green background. Ser Jorah is often described as wearing "green wool surcoat over chainmail, black bear of Mormont sewed on his chest"

Blackwater bay and the green fire (wildfire) - SO many things described here with black and green

Sansa's room - she finds the Hound in her room "outside a swirling lance of jade light spit at the stars, filling the room with a green glare. She saw him for a moment, all black and green"

Manticore - the gift to Dany from the Sorrowful Men - "a glittering green scarab carved from onyx and emerald"

Quorin Halfhand's pyre - "some of the wood was green, and it burned slow and steady, sending a black plume up"

Stannis - describing the obsidian at Dragonstone "chunks of it, boulders, ledges. The great part of it was black, as I recall, but there was some green as well"

Citadel - there are two green sphinxes that flank the main gate, with eyes of onyx

Braavos - the statue of the Titan is made of black granite with woven green fabric to look like seaweed for his hair

Maggi's tent - "in the green dim tent, the blood seemed more black than red"

Illyrios rings - among others "emerald, jet and jade, black diamond, green pearl"

Giant Turtle - "its dark green shell mottled with brown and overgrown with watermoss and crusty black river mollusks"

Glass candles at the citadel - 3 black and one green

I'm sure there are other examples, but do they mean anything?

[Elan Morin Tedronai]

I wouldn't know

Maybe GRRM just really likes the color combination of green and black :dunno:

[J. Stargaryen]

I discuss this in my Emeralds thread. To me the color green is associated with usurpers in dynastic conflicts. Whereas the 'blacks' are the side with the rightful claim.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I discuss this in my Emeralds thread. To me the color green is associated with usurpers in dynastic conflicts. Whereas the 'blacks' are the side with the rightful claim.

I remember reading this take and it's interesting.

As for the uses throughout the book, I think it's a combination of subtly keeping that color dichotomy present in our minds, almost like subliminal advertising, while also noting that, to use J. Starg's interpretation, "the usurpers and the rightful claim" are an ever-present duality, and perhaps at some point, everyone in the books will have to make a choice as to which half of the duality they support.

[Ser Creighton]

Could also be applied to chess pieces, in which case green would always move first.

[J. Stargaryen]

I remember reading this take and it's interesting.

As for the uses throughout the book, I think it's a combination of subtly keeping that color dichotomy present in our minds, almost like subliminal advertising, while also noting that, to use J. Starg's interpretation, "the usurpers and the rightful claim" are an ever-present duality, and perhaps at some point, everyone in the books will have to make a choice as to which half of the duality they support.

Glad you liked it, and I agree with your points in the second paragraph.

---

Not to turn this into a R+L=J legitimacy thread, but there are some interesting implications if the black = rightful claimant assumption is correct wrt to Jon.

Robb looked relieved. “Good.” He smiled. “The next time I see you, you’ll be all in black.”

Jon forced himself to smile back. “It was always my color.”

- AGoT, Jon II

Oh really?

And of course we have the stuff about Jon's father, Rhaegar, and his black plate armor.

They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert’s hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor.

- AGoT, Eddard I

Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

- AGoT, Eddard XV

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. “Your Grace,” Jaime had pleaded, “let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine.”

- AFfC, Jaime I

Even during the Tourney at Lannisport in 276 he wore black plate, though with different coloring besides.

Seventeen and new to knighthood, Rhaegar Targaryen had worn black plate over golden ringmail when he cantered onto the lists. Long streamers of red and gold and orange silk had floated behind his helm, like flames. Two of her uncles fell before his lance, along with a dozen of her father’s finest jousters, the flower of the west.

- AFfC, Cersei V

The first three especially would seem to fit extremely well with the 'black = rightful claimant' assumption. And of course the whole thing probably ties in quite well with the historical Edward, the Black Prince, who predeceased his father. And, even more interestingly, "the Black Prince's Ruby" is one of the Crown Jewels of England. More here.

[The Mighty Dragonzzilla]

There's only so many colors...

[Aerys Ahai Reborn]

Whereas the 'blacks' are the side with the rightful claim.

Meaning the Blackfyres are the rightful Targaryen heirs! I cannot recall, but is Daeron the Falseborn ever connected to the color green?

[J. Stargaryen]

Meaning the Blackfyres are the rightful Targaryen heirs! I cannot recall, but is Daeron the Falseborn ever connected to the color green?

Not that I know of. My honest to god impression is that the rumors about Aemon the Dragonknight and Queen Naerys were obvious propaganda.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Not that I know of. My honest to god impression is that the rumors about Aemon the Dragonknight and Queen Naerys were obvious propaganda.

Same.

I'm not sure the "Blackfyre" interpretation as "black" is even accurate. For example, in the original story, the colors came about because of a choice of dress: Rhaenyra wore black and Alicent wore green. Using the name alone to denote black seems heavy-handed to me. And the name Blackfyre is a reference to the sword, not so much a color.

I also like the idea of Jon's affiliation with black (and wearing black ice armor ...) denoting his rightful claim, too.

[MasterJack]

Didnt Dany dreamed about a knight armored in Black ice?

[The Mother of The Others]

There's only so many colors...

the color green is associated with usurpers in dynastic conflicts. 'blacks' the rightful claim.

Both are good takes and can co-exist. Green and Black are the colors of life, everywhere found, and yet being green with envy is part of our existence too, a universal part. The same way our existence is made up of the lush greenery of forest & grasslands & garden vegetables along with the blackness of night and the shadows that limit what we see and know.

I'm not sure the "Blackfyre" interpretation as "black" is even accurate.

I also like the idea of Jon's affiliation with black (and wearing black ice armor ...) denoting his rightful claim, too.

Remember the Blackfyres belong in black, because, for all the world knows, Aegon's claim is legit and the best claim, and everyone's gonna buy into it. So the Blackfyres are wearing counterfeit black, but black nonetheless because that's their wardrobe and they look damn good in it, so that still serves the analogy you guys have going. They're the fakers that are going to get past airport security. Jon is wearing poor man's black, the kind of dingy goth outfit that ensures nobody will listen to him when he cries wolf. Nobody but us, we guardians of the truth.

[Lyse Stark]

Didnt Dany dreamed about a knight armored in Black ice?

I think it was Jon who dreamed he was in black ice armor holding a burning sword.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Didnt Dany dreamed about a knight armored in Black ice?

Jon dreamed of himself armored in black ice.

ETA: Ninja'd.

[Lyse Stark]

And the green can connect with the saying "green with envy" in that the greens envied what the blacks had and sought to destroy them, often with tragic consequences for both sides.

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

Has Dany ever worn black clothing? I can't remember. I do remember her wearing green though. Meanwhile Aegon is dressed in black (and red). It feels very GRRM to have the Targaryen pretender dressed in black while the bona fide Targaryen wears green.

[MasterJack]

Jon dreamed of himself armored in black ice.

ETA: Ninja'd.

Well she dreamed about the usurper army armored in ice, it didnt say it was Black Ice, my mistake.

[J. Stargaryen]

Same.

I'm not sure the "Blackfyre" interpretation as "black" is even accurate. For example, in the original story, the colors came about because of a choice of dress: Rhaenyra wore black and Alicent wore green. Using the name alone to denote black seems heavy-handed to me. And the name Blackfyre is a reference to the sword, not so much a color.

I also like the idea of Jon's affiliation with black (and wearing black ice armor ...) denoting his rightful claim, too.

:agree:

Plus, I'm not sure that Targ vs. Blackfyre is the same as Targ vs. Targ, or the later Baratheon(-Lannister) vs. Baratheon. Which might be the reason we don't see evidence of the black/green dichotomy.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Before this history came out we had no idea the first Dance pitted the blacks against the greens. This helps explain a lot of what we've already read and helps us to understand where we're going.

Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black.

A blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice, filling the air with sweetness.

"The dragon has three heads."

"Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank fall of hair so blond it seemed white.

The three heads of the dragon are Aegon (green), Jon (blue), and Daenerys (black). (Aemon is dead and Bloodraven is all but spent.) Tyrion is the only character who has come into direct contact with all three of them. Dany has already mounted the black dragon. Aegon will likely claim the green one at some point. Jon doesn't appear destined to riding a dragon unless he takes Drogon after Daenerys. Tyrion and/or Brown Ben Plum will likely claim the white one. And Ulf the White's actions suggest that Viserion's rider will betray Daenerys for all the gold of Casterly Rock.

[J. Stargaryen]

Before this history came out we had no idea the first Dance pitted the blacks against the greens. This helps explain a lot of what we've already read and helps us to understand where we're going.

Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black.

A blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice, filling the air with sweetness.

"The dragon has three heads."

"Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank fall of hair so blond it seemed white.

The three heads of the dragon are Aegon (green), Jon (blue), and Daenerys (black). (Aemon is dead and Bloodraven is all but spent.) Tyrion is the only character who has come into direct contact with all three of them. Dany has already mounted the black dragon. Aegon will likely claim the green one at some point. Jon doesn't appear destined to riding a dragon unless he takes Drogon after Daenerys. Tyrion and/or Brown Ben Plum will likely claim the white one. And Ulf the White's actions suggest that Viserion's rider will betray Daenerys for all the gold of Casterly Rock.

I made the same connection wrt to Jon being the blue flame. So did Apple, iirc. Once you know about the 'blacks and greens' and blue roses, it almost jumps out at you.