Jon Snow: A mary sue?

[UVA]

Look, you're never going to get it so it's done.

Nice. By being so dismissive and refusing to defend your stance on Jon (ie, why you think he's so generic, what explicitly about his arc offends you, etc.) you seem to confirm that you are unwilling or unable to articulate an argument here.

[ARYa_Nym]

Nice. By being so dismissive and refusing to defend your stance on Jon (ie, why you think he's so generic, what explicitly about his arc offends you, etc.) you seem to confirm that you are unwilling or unable to articulate an argument here.

I'm unwilling to have an argument over things I'm not saying. I explained why I thought he was generic. I didn't go into specifics but I did explain that it had nothing to do with tropes. & I've been arguing for pages now what I find offensive in his arc.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Out of all the POV characters I would say that Jon comes the closest to the concept Mary Sue, but he still isn't one.

Yeah, I agree. GRRM is too good a writer to have true Mary Sue characters, though there are some parts of Jon's arc that are a bit lame compared to the rest of the series.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

But he is still a white savior. He's just the RL version of mighty whitey.

He was a real person, and therefore ineligible for trope status.

And what point are you even hoping to make by mislabeling him thusly? You're saying you find the 'McWhitey trope' offensive; by judging this real person's real actions an example of this trope, are you calling him and his actions offensive to you? If not, don't you see how merely accessing a trope and tagging a person or character with it is on its own completely vapid?

That doesn't matter. Jon was raised with nobles. They would be the tribe in this scenario with Mance the chief. He doesn't get with the chief's daughter (it's not absolutely necessary) but he does have 2 wildling love interests. He inspires and leads them.

Mance who is, of course, also an outsider to the wildlings. And yet he was well-versed in their culture before defecting to them, because of the high degree of interaction and shared cultural touchstones between the wildlings and the realm.

And honestly this line of reasoning you've just offered is nothing but a categorical dismissal of all of the similarities between the wildlings and Northmen so you can assert how you want to fit the wildlings into your trope 'scenario.' The wildlings are not a tribe and Mance is not a chief- you prove nothing by ignoring what the situation actually is so you can explain how you fit them into the box you want to fit them into.

No. He is not a true hero in the series (sorry Stannis fans) but misdirection or midseries filler as one poster liked to say. He still is not regarded as their leader. He did not live with them and adapt their ways. He is not morally superior-it's motivated out of self interest and does not care about them as people. The Northerners aren't depicted to be so drastically behind him in terms of the advancement of their society.

Declaring him 'not a true hero' is insufficient. He meets the meager requirements for 'McWhitey' that you've laid out. Stannis is leading the Northern mountain clans, and he accomplished this by adapting to their ways as much as Jon adapted to wildling ways (which in either case required very little actual adaptation, but you've set the bar low), Jon and Stannis' motives both are a mixture of self interest and care for the wellbeing of others. Stannis needs help to win the North but has stated his intention to fight the Others, Jon needs help to man the Wall but cares about the wildlings as fellow humans.

He hasn't civilized them yet but pairing Alys Karstark and the Thenns could be a step in the right direction. Introducing the wildlings at the Wall into the North or the Gift could be a way.

They would be wights though if he had not banded them together so it still applies even if he needs them to stay alive.

No, it doesn't apply when they are engaged in a mutually beneficial relationship. It makes it not the same as Jon being their 'savior,' instead it becomes the NW and the wildlings banding together to save one another from destruction. No one is doubting that the NW assisted the wildlings, but the fact that they did this in part to gain the assistance of the wildlings is crucial.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I have no issues with introverts, leaning more towards the introvert side of the scale myself. JonS is not the only introvert in the books either-the other one,Brienne being one of my favourites.

Jon is colourless, he's generic. Until Dance he was bland, unchallenged, pampered and whiny.

Thats not what i meant. I wasnt talking about introverts in general but how one is conveyed and also how your mind works---

I think it's the sharp contrast with the other characters, y'know? JonS feels like a character from a different book-I'd go from Jaime and Brienne navigating the Riverlands, Arya facing Roose and Harrenhal, Sansa being beaten and forcibly married to him complaining about his vows.

His story comes off as the Woes of the Straight White Male constantly interrupting my reading about the women and the disabled and the ones who don't adhere to society's strict gender dictonomy.

Wow! There you go, you just proved my point. A character must be something or exhibit extremity of some sort for you to appreciate them. Brienne may not be the most exciting character personality wise, but she represents an extreme in place in that universe. Sansa represents the female dilemma which is where your mind loves to hang out in. (other than shipping :P) Arya represents the balking of convention compounded with the extremity of struggle and death. Jon...doesnt represent an abstract extremity so your mind finds him dull...

Whoa...bolded, uhhh ahahahha this is where your mind goes. The extreme. Jon's arc really doesnt have a lot to do with his gender role.

I don't think Jon implementing in theory some egalitarian measures is as interesting as other characters actually living it, I mean yes, he does allow spearwives in the Watch but he also uses his institutional power to seperate a rape victim from her son just to save his friend's child, effectively choosing the child of King-Beyond-the-Wall over the child of a young, unprotected, victimised woman.

More extremist thinking. You know i love you, but by the beard of Heimdall! Are you actually saying what i think you are saying? Cuz if you are...*squints menacingly* The thing that really truly puts you off of Jon the most is actually that hes a bloke. A bloke with this particular role in the story.

.....

I never said I require a character to be eglitrian at all times-you pointed out that Jon was one suh character and I was merely saying that his egalitrianism is cosmetic.

I make no claims to objectivity.

Cosmetic? Really? Jon puts his more egalitarian viewpoints into practice a lot of the time. While they may not as in-your-face as Dany's ideals, they exist. They exist enough to result in Jon getting stabbed because of rancor building from other NW members. Hmmm. /folds arms

lol, no, just that I don't think you'd get the result you wanted from trolling me on that particular issue.

If you're calling him "generic" because you believe that R+L makes him a "return of he king"/ "secret king" trope, then I need to point out that there's no such thing as a "true king" in this series, and frankly, R+L means nothing in terms of the throne for Jon at all. Lineage isn't what gives you the throne or power.

R+L doesn't work the way I think a lot of readers might think. Rather than telling us that Jon is the "true king," it's actually telling us that any notion of there being a "true king" is completely obsolete. Jon is never going to be given the throne because he's allegedly a Targ-- so he's neither Aragorn, nor the "unwilling king" trope. If Jon ever takes the throne, it will be for reasons that have nothing to do with R+L as a factor of legitimacy.

Arr. In fact, id like to point out something.

Jon's role is not the same as Harry Potter's. He is not Raistlin. He is not Drizzt. He is not Elric, Eragon, or even Aragorn. While Jon resembles Aragorn a lot, his role isnt quite the same because its becoming clear that despite whatever his parentage is, its not going to ultimately matter. Remember Varys' riddle. Power resides where men believe it to reside. So you are correct. If Jon's arse winds up on that iron throne, it wont be because of his bloodline.

Jon is also only one of many leads in this story.

Snip

Yeah kinda didnt expect this one to come from you. And yeah i agree somewhat.

So, you really have a problem with fandom and their wild speculations and beliefs, rather than the actual canon character?

Actually, you'd be surprised how much and often this is the case. Sadly. I even felt this way about Sansa at one point. It does happen but we do need to realize how silly that is.

How is this thread not about Tyrion?

Cuz hes totally not a Sue. Not even the Anti-Sue. Tyrion is a shit nibbler and has more faults than we can shake a stick at. But hes also a lead.

[Winter's Knight]

"Extreme" is what I object to Flo. Jon's story is one I've heard before and many, many times. Now, if GRRM does something radically different in the next two books, I'll happily eat my words and unseasoned too but as it stands, his story and his character strikes me as dull.

[Florina Laufeyson]

"Extreme" is what I object to Flo. Jon's story is one I've heard before and many, many times. Now, if GRRM does something radically different in the next two books, I'll happily eat my words and unseasoned too but as it stands, his story and his character strikes me as dull.

One of these is not like the other.... :uhoh:

[Roddy the Ruin]

One of these is not like the other.... :uhoh:

:lol:

[Winter's Knight]

One of these is not like the other.... :uhoh:

:laugh:

Sorry, I'm marathoning The Good Wife and am not very present: if George does in fact do something different with Jon over the next two books so he doesn't so closely resemble a David Eddings hero, I will happily eat my words unseasoned.

[Florina Laufeyson]

:laugh:

Sorry, I'm marathoning The Good Wife and am not very present: if George does in fact do something different with Jon over the next two books so he doesn't so closely resemble a David Eddings hero, I will happily eat my words unseasoned.

I understand the Standard Hero Fatigue. But i really think that, that is not whats going on with Jon. And close observation of his character arc will be able to show you that Jon isnt a David Eddings Hero or even exactly a standard hero at all. Some of us Jon fans kinda want Jon to go a little...darker in the next books because it would be really cool to explore. And most of us dont actually think he'll wind up on the throne. (Id be ok with him remaining as LC or something at the end. As long as awesome ensues.) But i also like to point out that Dany has a lot of Standard Hero stuff going on in her arc too. Probably even more than Jon. Dany is an actual Lost Princess and she gets to lead and conquer. (Jon has conquered squat.) Hell, she even has dragons man! Dragons! You rally behind her because of....Shes interesting and complex? Or is it because shes a she? ;) Gender flip the two for a moment and ponder that nugget for a while. :devil:

[ARYa_Nym]

He was a real person, and therefore ineligible for trope status.

And what point are you even hoping to make by mislabeling him thusly? You're saying you find the 'McWhitey trope' offensive; by judging this real person's real actions an example of this trope, are you calling him and his actions offensive to you? If not, don't you see how merely accessing a trope and tagging a person or character with it is on its own completely vapid?

No, I already explained that. The industry is going to push these stories of minorities because such a character is present within the story over ones where it's not present unless it's about negative stereotypes. Even when it's not about race it further popularizes and normalizes it. This is going to be even more true with books because there aren't many popular series where the main character is non white.

Mance who is, of course, also an outsider to the wildlings. And yet he was well-versed in their culture before defecting to them, because of the high degree of interaction and shared cultural touchstones between the wildlings and the realm.

He was raised away from them but unlike other characters who fulfill this he was born one of them and always preferred the wild than the Wall.

And honestly this line of reasoning you've just offered is nothing but a categorical dismissal of all of the similarities between the wildlings and Northmen so you can assert how you want to fit the wildlings into your trope 'scenario.' The wildlings are not a tribe and Mance is not a chief- you prove nothing by ignoring what the situation actually is so you can explain how you fit them into the box you want to fit them into.

They're not always tribes and chiefs but they are comparable to the scenarios in which this does happen.

Declaring him 'not a true hero' is insufficient. He meets the meager requirements for 'McWhitey' that you've laid out. Stannis is leading the Northern mountain clans, and he accomplished this by adapting to their ways as much as Jon adapted to wildling ways (which in either case required very little actual adaptation, but you've set the bar low), Jon and Stannis' motives both are a mixture of self interest and care for the wellbeing of others. Stannis needs help to win the North but has stated his intention to fight the Others, Jon needs help to man the Wall but cares about the wildlings as fellow humans.

The Northern clans are apart of the seven kingdoms unlike the wildlings. They are not truly other even though they have differences. They also have similarities. Northern clans are willing to work with southerners to keep wildlings out.

He never lived with them. In Avatar Jake lived with them. Dany lived with the Dothraki. Jon lived with the wildlings. They learned their ways to the point a NW member wondered if Jon was half a wildling.

When does Stannis start to see them better, show genuine care about them, and start to like them? Since he hasn't spent serious time with them this is unlikely to happen. & especially since it's Stannis in particular. He's doing whatever he can to use them. Let's say they want Rickon to be king. His true nature will come out quick.

Jon and Dany also fit it more with having a relationship with one of the natives and the fact that their respective "other" cultures are less advanced.

Jon comes off superior to both as I mentioned before because of Bowen Marsh, Selyse, and co. & the fact that the majority of Westeros does not care about or like them. He also is morally superior to wildlings in cases like Ygritte murdering the old man for him and when he argues with her about her culture by bringing awareness to issues such as rape.

No, it doesn't apply when they are engaged in a mutually beneficial relationship. It makes it not the same as Jon being their 'savior,' instead it becomes the NW and the wildlings banding together to save one another from destruction. No one is doubting that the NW assisted the wildlings, but the fact that they did this in part to gain the assistance of the wildlings is crucial.

It being mutually beneficial wouldn't disqualify it. Jon is the one who was pushing for them to be saved,plotting things like Hardhome, and helping the wildlings at the Wall. In addition there's a high possibility that they consider him their de facto leader, savior, and king.

[Winter's Knight]

I understand the Standard Hero Fatigue. But i really think that, that is not whats going on with Jon. And close observation of his character arc will be able to show you that Jon isnt a David Eddings Hero or even exactly a standard hero at all. Some of us Jon fans kinda want Jon to go a little...darker in the next books because it would be really cool to explore. And most of us dont actually think he'll wind up on the throne. (Id be ok with him remaining as LC or something at the end. As long as awesome ensues.) But i also like to point out that Dany has a lot of Standard Hero stuff going on in her arc too. Probably even more than Jon. Dany is an actual Lost Princess and she gets to lead and conquer. (Jon has conquered squat.) Hell, she even has dragons man! Dragons! You rally behind her because of....Shes interesting and complex? Or is it because shes a she? ;) Gender flip the two for a moment and ponder that nugget for a while. :devil:

I like Dany because I have an Alexander complex and because I identify with her idealism, see? Also,to the best of my knowledge, lost princesses generally have their causes championed-if you do have any fantasy novels where a lost princess reconquers her kingdom, gimme, gimme gimme.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I like Dany because I have an Alexander complex and because I identify with her idealism, see? Also,to the best of my knowledge, lost princesses generally have their causes championed-if you do have any fantasy novels where a lost princess reconquers her kingdom, gimme, gimme gimme.

If she were a dude you'd probably not love her as much is my point. ;)

Not exactly a princess but you might like it more cuz the protagonist isnt a princess but winds up leading a nation anyway. And doing a lot of incredibly badass shit. Very High Fantasy though.

[Winter's Knight]

If she were a dude you'd probably not love her as much is my point. ;)

Not exactly a princess but you might like it more cuz the protagonist isnt a princess but winds up leading a nation anyway. And doing a lot of incredibly badass shit. Very High Fantasy though.

If Dany were Daniel and had been sold by his elder sister as a bedslave to a warlord/husband to the leader of a matriarchal warrior race and raised dragons and freed slaves? Are you kidding? That'd basically be Enjolras with dragons and a storyline fraught with gender issues and daily debates on how men can't get raped-and you think I wouldn't like that#?

Ha, that's on my reading list but thanks!

[Hellothere]

If Dany were Daniel and had been sold by his elder sister as a bedslave to a warlord/husband to the leader of a matriarchal warrior race and raised dragons and freed slaves? Are you kidding? That'd basically be Enjolras with dragons and a storyline fraught with gender issues and daily debates on how men can't get raped-and you think I wouldn't like that#?

So much better than what I was going to post. It's impossible to flip the genders without flipping the entire world which would make it a different story.

[LordStoneheart]

I have an idea. Let's a start a thread for each of the POV characters, and five kings in the WotFK and talk about why each is a Mary Sue. I'll call it Sue-ssical. Who's down?

[danm_999]

Oh boy a "Jon is Mary Sue who suffers no consequences" thread.

Let's see how far I can get before we get really silly.

He kills Qhorin as that is exactly what Qhorin wants him to do. He comes back to the Watch and loses the woman he loves. For now, as far as he knows, he has lost all his family (his father and all the siblings he loved), the home where he grew up is burned and in the control of a monster who has his sister, the woman he loved died in his arms, the Others are coming with him being responsible for being the first line of defense against them, and he is stabbed and either unconscious or dead. That is not nothing.

Hmm, didn't make it past the first page.

I guess having your hand horribly, permanently burnt, having your face wretchedly scarred by a bird, being shot through the leg with an arrow and almost dying, and then getting stabbed by multiple assilants to death(?) don't count as physical consequences.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I guess having your hand horribly, permanently burnt,

I think permanently burnt is a bit much. Yes, he has to do hand exercises for a long while afterwards. No, it doesn't hurt him long term. Besides, if it did, it'd interfere with him being able to wield that priceless sword he got out of it.

having your face wretchedly scarred by a bird,

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuggedScar

and then getting stabbed by multiple assilants to death(?) don't count as physical consequences.

The chances of Jon staying dead are exactly nil. It's probably just the next step on turning him into the new Azor Ahai: Jon's so special that even when he gets assassinated, it works out for him.

[LordStoneheart]

The chances of Jon staying dead are exactly nil. It's probably just the next step on turning him into the new Azor Ahai: Jon's so special that even when he gets assassinated, it works out for him.

The chances are mostly nil, not exactly, so this is still a worthless criticism since Winds is not out and none of this is confirmed. When Jon gets assassinated, he feels daggers in his stomach regardless of possible resurrection. Lucky him, I guess.

[danm_999]

I think permanently burnt is a bit much. Yes, he has to do hand exercises for a long while afterwards. No, it doesn't hurt him long term. Besides, if it did, it'd interfere with him being able to wield that priceless sword he got out of it.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuggedScar

The chances of Jon staying dead are exactly nil. It's probably just the next step on turning him into the new Azor Ahai: Jon's so special that even when he gets assassinated, it works out for him.

Regardless of whether he dies or not, I'd say being stabbed mulitple times is a pretty severe physical consequence, no? Like, even if he gets Red Witch resurrected, or wargs into Ghost, all that damage isn't just going to disappear is it? At best, we're looking at Beric Dondarrion territory.

As are the other two. You might want to argue degrees of physical consequence (so he does suffer something physically), but then we're out of the Mary Sue territory aren't we? The Mary Sue would get the amazeballs sword without getting horribly burnt, for example, because they're just so awesome.

As for the scars; look to the list TV Tropes gives you. Are many of those characters Mary Sue's?