Jon Snow: A mary sue?

[WeddinGuest]

Jon isn't unique in his ability to recognize the common humanity at all. I think it's more that he's unique in his navigation of it.

True that Jon isn't the ONLY one who recognizes the wildlings as men, but interestingly, by the time the whole showdown with Marsh's crew occurs in ADWD, he seems to me the only NW man left with significant power/gravitas who knows this. Mormont, Qhorin, Sam, Aemon, Stannis, et al., are all either dead, or at least away from the Wall and unable to influence the men or try to sway them to their side.

Agreed. I always just use Avatar because it's the most obvious example. It wasn't anything new. It's just the most popular/successful and unfortunately there are going to be sequels.

Yes, and Val is even closer related to the "chief" in this case. She's not blood but she's an in law so even better than Ygritte.

Well, I've read that Jon already is their king. I thought he wasn't because he's in the NW but there are threads that says that they consider him their king n

Val is also conventionally beautiful in the way Ygritte supposedly wasn't. (Though she seems to be considered a "catch" by many wildling men.) I'll also note that what also made me not that invested in Book!Ygritte is that Jon accepts pretty much everything she says as the Last Word on Wildling Culture, and so far, GRRM hasn't subverted that. Even though Mance's army is made up of all sorts of different wildling "tribes" from all over the North, and I doubt every single wildling woman loves the idea of being stolen by a strong man as Ygritte claims, anymore than every woman in Westeros loves the idea of being married off by her father (or other male relative) to a stranger for political gain.

(Reminds me of a similar complaint about the Dothraki, that they're all portrayed as pillaging rapists with no real distinction between different Khals and Khalasars, whereas, for example, Stannis's army is much more disciplined, and less inclined to rape, than Tywin's army, even though both Stannis and Tywin share the same generic Westerosi culture.)

As for the whole McWhitey trope, the problem with it, and I suspect why AN finds it so offensive, isn't the idea of a white man being the hero. It's idea that ONLY white men can be heroes (even if they are Enlightened White Men) and how many movies and other pop culture stories shoehorn white male characters into hero/protagonist roles, even in stories that are mostly about non-white-male struggles. Now, GRRM may still wind up deconstructing this the same way he's started to deconstruct the trope as it applies to Dany, I hope he does, and I really hope he doesn't have him hook up with Val, because that will really be reverting to tropey-ness if he does that.

Annara Snow, thanks for jumping in and pointing out how modern socio-political issues can't be completely transposed to Westeros, either. It's also interesting how so many fans accept that Theon as a legitimate victim of society to the extent that his victimhood gives him a pass for all of his questionable actions, even before Ramsay got to him, even though Theon was definitely a Straight White Male (Throbb shipping notwithstanding ;) ) and definitely a Non-Disabled Highborn Trueborn Male pre-Ramsay, and had pretty much the same material comforts, education, and training that Jon Snow did. Ok, so I guess the REALLY privileged people are Non-Disabled Highborn Trueborn Males who aren't Hostages and Have Political Power...

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Because this film will get be released and receive award recognition because it fulfills what Hollywood wants although they don't like to be reminded of slavery. There are other true stories of minorities who won't get told and won't receive notoriety because they don't have the setup Hollywood likes. This is the film where they can pat themselves on the back for being so understanding.

You're wobbling. Now you're criticizing Hollywood, when your starting point was the accusation that Brad Pitt's character was an example of the 'McWhitey trope,' which is a really bizarre accusation to level against a real historical figure. It's really not remotely defensible.

It doesn't have to be aliens vs. humans. It's part of Jon's character development to see them as the same. It's part of their development as a introduced aspect of the story to start to see them as more similar but in the beginning and even now since they haven't successfully integrated into Westeros yet they are "other".

No, it doesn't have to aliens vs. humans. What it should be, though, is a culture that is at the very least dissimilar in language, religion, mythology, and ancestry, in none of which are the wildlings and North dissimilar. They largely are the same. Jon doesn't enter a foreign culture and save them, he enters a largely similar culture as a spy, turns on them when the opportunity is available, and then, finally, realizes they aren't his true enemies and makes common cause with them against the Others. It really does not fit into the trope box you're trying to fit it into.

[RoamingRonin]

How is this thread not about Tyrion?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

There is a finite number of tropes and a finite number of non-ridiculous subversions. I don't know about fantasy, but in litterature in general, all have been done again and again and again. After some time, everything becomes a cliché. Even if the Others win in the end and everyone dies, it's not like it hasn't been done before. In that case, I'd rather watch Monty Python than read fantasy.

I would not appreciate subversion and/or surprise just for the sake of it. What matters to me is the details. Otherwise, every single character in litterature, as in real life, can be reduced to generic. After all, stereotypes exist because they actually work and categorizing is a basic learning procedure. It becomes a problem only when one sticks to them and refuses to see the specifics, the variations and the change.

I don't care if, and what, trope each character implements. I care how it is done.

[Annara Snow]

At this point, it would be useful to remind ourselves what the term Mary Sue actually means:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

And this part is particularly relevant:

Interpretations of Mary Sue

As mentioned above, there are many interpretations of what does or doesn't constitute a Mary Sue. In this sense, Mary Sue isn't so much a trope as it is a brand name, with the usage being determined by both writer and reader. It is not limited in usage, getting applied to all characters regardless of gender, role, or species. Sometimes, even whole groups, organizations, and even societies are labeled as being Mary Sue. This is a list of some of the interpretations. They are here to offer insight into why people might call a character a Mary Sue.

Mary Sue as Protagonist You Don't Like An alarmingly widespread use of the term, and one reason a lot of people feel that the term has lost whatever useful meaning it once had. There are a lot of reasons why this usage is so common. Most obviously, as rants about and mockery of the Mary Sue phenomenon became increasingly well-known in fandom, it became increasingly easy to throw the term around as Flame Bait. The fact that so many of the other definitions are highly subjective doesn't help.

People who accuse characters of being Mary Sues rarely admit that this is the definition they're using. The best way to tell is if their justifications for the character's Sue-hood are all based on shoehorning, Alternate Character Interpretation, misrepresenting the sources, and Accentuate the Negative. Describe any non-fanfic character as a Canon Sue, and you'll be lucky if no one accuses you of using this definition of the term.

Mary Sue as Clichéd character Draven, orphaned and abused since childhood, discovers he is the Chosen One destined to overthrow The Empire with a new power unique to him, and even within his own family, he is special. And he wields a katana in a setting when they are not East Asian. Watch as suddenly, he is declared a Mary Sue simply for his background. Sadly, this is another use related to the two above (primarily "protagonist you don't like") that has caused the Mary Sue to begin losing its original meaning. Many litmus tests will list traits the author of the test simply does not like to see used in fiction and will try to eliminate it from fiction altogether by listing it as one of the Common Mary Sue Traits, in the hope that it would vanish from fiction as people fearing the "Mary Sue" label will deliberately avoid it.

Essentially, this amounts to treating the symptoms rather than the disease. Averting this will only result in Anti-Sue.

Mary Sue as Infallible Character Related to the above, this is when the idea is that Mary Sue is a character that simply never fails. This might sound less subjective than many of the other definitions, but in practice it's at least as bad — very few characters are truly infallible, because initial failures are such an obvious way to create drama and make the eventual victory that much sweeter. Conversely, there are plenty of well-liked fictional heroes who are mostly infallible, because watching them succeed is usually more satisfying than investing your emotional energy into failures. And on the third hand, there's plenty of wiggle room around what really counts as failure. What if the character fails at lots of insignificant things (they can't learn to play the banjo, they can't cook a decent meal, they never manage to show up on time for meetings), but always succeeds at anything remotely important? What if they frequently don't succeed at what they set out to do, but the author always makes it very clear that the failure wasn't really the character's fault? And so on, and on, and on.

In practice, therefore, most characters fall somewhere on a continuum between constant failure and constant success, and it's up to each person to decide how often a character needs to fail to be realistic, how significant the failures need to be, and so on. Characters who unambiguously qualify as Sues under this definition are quite rare, usually the result of authors who are so much in love with their precious creations that they can't bear to see them face any setbacks whatsoever (see also the "Author Avatar" and "Power Fantasy" definitions, above).

The last one, oddly enough, seems to be what some people accuse Jon of, even though that makes little sense after ADWD.

[The Holy Goat]

I'll just settle with saying that I do not believe Jon Snow to be a Mary Sue/Marty Stu, and I do not believe any other character in the series to be one either.

Other than that I agree with this:

I have to disagree here.

1. Burns his hand saving Lord commander Mormont. Has to keep flexing it throughout the series so that it wont grow stiff, One could argue if he hadn't saved the commander, he would have been better able to defend himself when he was betrayed in book 5. There is a specific part that says he couldn't get longclaw, because his hand had become stiff and clumsy.
   
2. Orell tried to rip out jon's eyes through the eagle. Jon most likely has been walking around with scars on his face since book 2.
   
3. Jon gets shot when he flees from the wildings to warn his brothers. He almost bleeds out and dies on the way back. He is bedridden for a while. When he fights in the battle, he is limping around. And to quite literally add insult to injury, the person that he cares about Ygritte, is the one that shoots him in the leg.
   
4. Mance Rayder beats him down in the yard when he is disguised as rattleshirt.
   
5. In the last book he is betrayed by his brothers trying to calm down Wun Wun. He was stabbed at least three times I think.
   

I think Jon has been through a lot. He thinks that he's lost his entire family. Shot and almost killed by the woman that he loved. He has isolated himself from his friends and sending his best one away. And then he is undermined and betrayed by the very people he is doing his best to defend. If he comes back I think that he will be more than a little jaded about life.

And excuse be for my tirade but Jon has been through a lot of bad stuff in the series, both physically and mentally. In fact, I'd say that he's been trough just as much and sometimes more than most of the Major POV characters, and the backstory of being the motherless bastard, looked down upon by Catelyn and generally being the odd one out in the household is just the minor part. After the start of the series he suffers second degree burns over all of his right hand, has the left side of his face carved up by an eagle, gets and arrow through his leg, and is stabbed in back, stomach and throat. Add to that the fact that he has to take on the responsibility of being Lord Commander of the Night's Watch in it's darkest hour, all while romours are abound that he's a turncloak, wildlinglover, treacherous crow and warg, and Stannis Baratheon, wildlings, and Others are all about, making trouble.

And everyone else he once loved and respected are dead to, as far he knows: His father Eddard is beheaded on Joffrey Baratheons orders, his older brother Robb is betrayed and murdered by the Freys along with his estranged stepmother Catelyn, his younger brothers Bran and Rickon are murdered by Theon Greyjoy, his sister Sansa is held hostage in King's Landing, forcibly married to a Lannister, and subsequently disappears from the face of the earth, his other sister Arya isn't heard from for years only to reappear and be forcibly married to a psycopathic monster called Ramsay Bolton, and his uncle Benjen disappears beyond the Wall and is presumed dead. And aside from that, the entire household he grew up with and loved, the people he trained with, was mentored by, jested with and had fun with has been slaughtered one way or another: Maester Luwin, master-at-arms Rodrik Cassel and his daughter Beth Cassel, captain of guards Jory Cassel, steward Vayon Poole and his daughter Jeyne Poole, Septa Mordane and Septon Chayle, master of horse Hullen and guardsman son Harwin, new master of horse Joseth and his daughter Bandy and Shyra, master of hounds Farlen and his daughter Palla, cook Gage and his child Turnip, blacksmith Mikken, guardsmen Hallis Mollen, Alyn, Fat Tom and his son TomToo, Jacks, Quent, Shadd, Desmond, Varly, Cayn and son Calon, Porther, Heward, Wyl, Alebelly and Wayn, and sadly also Old Nan and poor Hodor. And Winterfell was burned, it's lands claimed by House Bolton, the house practically extinguished.

Now, even if Jon didn't care equally deeply for all of these individuals, there is no denying that the surviving Starks have lost alot of people they cared about. And whole damn lot, people that can't be replaced, people who was always there and now are gone forever.

And Jon couldn't do shit about it, because he was far to the North, and leaving would result in him being hunted down like a dear and executed as an oathbreaker. Kinda like what happen in the end of A Dance with Dragons. It's just lovely being Jon Snow. Or any Stark for that matter.

And then there's also I even have to mention losing his lover Ygritte, mentors like The Old Bear, Donal Noye and Qhorin Halfhand, and comrades like Stonesnake, Ebben, Squire Dalbridge, Deaf Dick Follard, Hake the cook, and more.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

As for the whole McWhitey trope, the problem with it, and I suspect why AN finds it so offensive, isn't the idea of a white man being the hero. It's idea that ONLY white men can be heroes (even if they are Enlightened White Men) and how many movies and other pop culture stories shoehorn white male characters into hero/protagonist roles, even in stories that are mostly about non-white-male struggles. Now, GRRM may still wind up deconstructing this the same way he's started to deconstruct the trope as it applies to Dany, I hope he does, and I really hope he doesn't have him hook up with Val, because that will really be reverting to tropey-ness if he does that.

It's because they are/used to be until very recently the basic consumers of such products. The change is led by market trend analysis, mainly.

[Annara Snow]

How is this thread not about Tyrion?

Because the term Mary Sue does not mean what you think it means. You seem to be confusing it with "Author insert". And because Tyrion is the polar opposite of Mary Sue (or Marty/Gary Stu).

[ARYa_Nym]

Ok, sure. Once again, these 2 adjacent posts, which are in direct response to each other, are what yields the logical conclusion I was speaking to:

Hello! In your post you ask how is he going to be a traditional hero if he doesn't fulfill everything and in reply I say he fulfills one (I was referring to McWhitey) but GRRM could still change the others.

What does that have to do with my thoughts on him being generic?

I don't get why you're so worked up over this. I'm sometimes a bit careless about what I actually mean when I post, but when there's a misunderstanding, as you're saying there is, I apologize for being inarticulate and clarify to progress the discussion. When you wrote the posts that clarified you were referring to something specific, I moved on and tried to continue the discussion, but you keep insisting on trying to chasten me for your own inarticulateness about something, completely stagnating the discussion.

Whether you mean to say this or not, all of your posts are sending the message that you're "hellbent" on not engaging with Jon's character. In any capacity.

You didn't move on. You kept arguing points about "implications" you thought I was making and when I told you that you were wrong you still kept going on about it.

So, you really have a problem with fandom and their wild speculations and beliefs, rather than the actual canon character?

I thought he was bland before ADWD so I wasn't a fan initially. I always had a problem with a specific trope but I was still able to like him until I learned that he might be king of the wildlings. Then it turned into dislike because of the fandom. It's really last year. It's getting too much.

True that Jon isn't the ONLY one who recognizes the wildlings as men, but interestingly, by the time the whole showdown with Marsh's crew occurs in ADWD, he seems to me the only NW match with significant power/gravitas who knows this. Mormont, Qhorin, Sam, Aemon, Stannis, et al., are all either dead, or at least away from the Wall and unable to influence the men or try to sway them to their side.

Val is also conventionally beautiful in the way Ygritte supposedly wasn't. (Though she seems to be considered a "catch" by many wildling men.) I'll also note that what also made me not that invested in Book!Ygritte is that Jon accepts pretty much everything she says as the Last Word on Wildling Culture, and so far, GRRM hasn't subverted that. Even though Mance's army is made up of all sorts of different wildling "tribes" from all over the North, and I doubt every single wildling woman loves the idea of being stolen by a strong man as Ygritte claims, anymore than every woman in Westeros loves the idea of being married off by her father (or other male relative) to a stranger for political gain.

As for the whole McWhitey trope, the problem with it, and I suspect why AN finds it so offensive, isn't the idea of a white man being the hero. It's idea that ONLY white men can be heroes (even if they are Enlightened White Men) and how many movies and other pop culture stories shoehorn white male characters into hero/protagonist roles, even in stories that are mostly about non-white-male struggles. Now, GRRM may wind up deconstructing this the same way he's started to deconstruct the trope as it applies to Dany, I hope he does, and I really hope he doesn't have him hook up with Val, because that will really be reverting to tropey-ness if he does that.

Even in the Avatar movie Sam's character wasn't the only one. I don't know how to spell the actresses name but Ripley who played the doctor and basically his whole small crew were the same.

Truth. What if a wildling woman can't fight him off? It seems like she has to suck it up.

Agreed on the last paragraph. Ygritte is enough though. Val just makes it worse although she is less annoying than Ygritte.

You're wobbling. Now you're criticizing Hollywood, when your starting point was the accusation that Brad Pitt's character was an example of the 'McWhitey trope,' which is a really bizarre accusation to level against a real historical figure. It's really not remotely defensible.

Think about it. When minorities win Oscars they are mainly stereotypes. Drug dealer, slave, mammy, etc. I don't even think Asian females win. They don't have the variety of roles that Meryl Streep does. Popular minority films often has a white savior. Malcolm X was too much for them but this is fine. Danny Glover I believe it was talked about wanting to do a movie about a positive minority figure and the studio told him where's the white savior?

Yes, it's based off of a real life story. I'm not criticizing Steve Mcqueen. But let this be about another figure with no white saviors they are not going to find it as appealing unless it's like that stereotypical Precious movie or something.

No, it doesn't have to aliens vs. humans. What it should be, though, is a culture that is at the very least dissimilar in language, religion, mythology, and ancestry, in none of which are the wildlings and North dissimilar. They largely are the same. Jon doesn't enter a foreign culture and save them, he enters a largely similar culture as a spy, turns on them when the opportunity is available, and then, finally, realizes they aren't his true enemies and makes common cause with them against the Others. It really does not fit into the trope box you're trying to fit it into.

They are classified as other and the word savage does come up in the books. They are not apart of the kingdoms. I already went over differences culturally. That does not mean that they can't also have similarities.

[Ser Creighton]

Wait now, I would like to know what Mary Sue did to piss everyone off? I mean if people are going to slander her name like this all the time I think she has a right to know. Shame on all of you for abusing this poor women, it's mob mentality at it's worse. Leave Mary alone. How come nobody ever goes after Gary and Larry Stu? This thread is biased and sexist, what next are you going to stone her in the streets, burn her at the stake? You all disgust me.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Think about it. When minorities win Oscars they are mainly stereotypes. Drug dealer, slave, mammy, etc. I don't even think Asian females win. They don't have the variety of roles that Meryl Streep does. Popular minority films often has a white savior. Malcolm X was too much for them but this is fine. Danny Glover I believe it was talked about wanting to do a movie about a positive minority figure and the studio told him where's the white savior?

Yes, it's based off of a real life story. I'm not criticizing Steve Mcqueen. But let this be about another figure with no white saviors they are not going to find it as appealing unless it's like that stereotypical Precious movie or something.

Your criticism of Hollywood in general is not relevant to my point.

You accused a character in a film who was based off a real life historical figure who historically did the same thing he did in the film of being an example of the 'McWhitey Trope'- your initial point was not about why the film was well received, you said Brad Pitt's character specifically was an example of this trope and that they 'had to put him in.' Do you really not see how it makes no sense to call a real person an example of a trope, or to say they 'had to put him in' when he was a real person in the real events the movie portrays?

They are classified as other and the word savage does come up in the books. They are not apart of the kingdoms. I already went over differences culturally. That does not mean that they can't also have similarities.

But they have massive similarities, to the extent that it makes no sense to see Jon as an other-cultured savior of the wildlings. He speaks their language, shares their religion, and knows their myths- the are similar to the extent that they're largely the same culture.

Beyond that, there are the specifics of Jon's arc with the wildlings which do not track with the 'McWhitey Avatar Trope'- he spies on them, betrays them to save the NW, and later makes common cause with them against the Others.

[ARYa_Nym]

Your criticism of Hollywood in general is not relevant to my point.

You accused a character in a film who was based off a real life historical figure who historically did the same thing he did in the film of being an example of the 'McWhitey Trope'- your initial point was not about why the film was well received, you said Brad Pitt's character specifically was an example of this trope and that they 'had to put him in.' Do you really not see how it makes no sense to call a real person an example of a trope, or to say they 'had to put him in' when he was a real person in the real events the movie portrays?

Just because it's based off of real life events does not mean tropes can't apply. There were real life white saviors. Brad's involvement in the film has a lot to with its success.

But they have massive similarities, to the extent that it makes no sense to see Jon as an other-cultured savior of the wildlings. He speaks their language, shares their religion, and knows their myths- the are similar to the extent that they're largely the same culture.

Beyond that, there are the specifics of Jon's arc with the wildlings which do not track with the 'McWhitey Avatar Trope'- he spies on them, betrays them to save the NW, and later makes common cause with them against the Others.

And massive differences. There are many ways in which the Northerners are more similar to Southerners than they are wildlings. He himself refers to them as savages at one point in the books.

Does Sam not do this? He spies on them and its his info that allows the humans to attack them. He tries to redeem himself but the humans already were going to attack by that time.

[WeddinGuest]

But they have massive similarities, to the extent that it makes no sense to see Jon as an other-cultured savior of the wildlings. He speaks their language, shares their religion, and knows their myths- the are similar to the extent that they're largely the same culture.

Beyond that, there are the specifics of Jon's arc with the wildlings which do not track with the 'McWhitey Avatar Trope'- he spies on them, betrays them to save the NW, and later makes common cause with them against the Others.

I agree with you that the wildling culture is not actually as different from "Northman" culture as, say, the Na'vi and human culture are different in Avatar. However, I think he still fits the trope because Jon is in the minority among the NW in seeing the similarities. Jon has to "remind" other NW-men that the wildlings actually qualify as the "men" they swore to defend when they swore to "guard the realms of men".

Now, some people in the NW do agree with Jon, the same way some humans in Avatar did agree with the protagonist, Jake -- I actually had to look up what his name is in the movie, "Sam" is the name of the actor who plays him, Sam Worthington. But they're not protagonists, they don't drive the plot forward the same way Jake does in Avatar, or Jon does in his chapters.

I guess another issue with Jon is that while he's not the only protagonist, it's obvious that everyone he meets at the Wall, except for Stannis and Mel, are there to support Jon's story arc, not to be protagonists themselves. Whereas someone like Tyrion interacts with many who are protagonists in their own right, such as Cersei, Jaime, Sansa, LF, and likely eventually Dany. (Dany too, has been isolated from other protagonist characters so far.)

(BTW, AN, do you think Bran is a McWhitey as well? His storyline has similarities with Jake too, he's also a paraplegic, the weirwood network is reminscent of the Tree of Souls? And in his case, he seems to be superficially the "savior" of a humanoid-but-not-human species, the COTF.)

However, though I think Jon fits the "McWhitey" trope enough that I find it problematic, but that it's not enough to totally ruin my enjoyment of him as a character the way it seems to have for AN. (Though I do admit that I dislike Theon for similar reasons, based on how his fans woobify him, excuse everything he does, and present him as a Victim of Society even though he too likely had a better life than 99% of Westeros, pre-Ramsay of course.)

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Just because it's based off of real life events does not mean tropes can't apply. There were real life white saviors. Brad's involvement in the film has a lot to with its success.

No, it does mean that. A trope is a well-worn artistic device, the term doesn't apply to the real world.

And massive differences. There are many ways in which the Northerners are more similar to Southerners than they are wildlings. He himself refers to them as savages at one point in the books.

And there are many ways in which the Northerners are more similar to the wildlings than to the Southerners. Does the difference between the Southerners and Northerners make Stannis an example of the McWhitey trope for saving the North from wildling invasion, ingratiating himself with Northerners, and then helping them fight off the Ironborn?

Does Sam not do this? He spies on them and its his info that allows the humans to attack them. He tries to redeem himself but the humans already were going to attack by that time.

I'll admit that my memory of Avatar is rusty, but, as I recall, he ultimately takes up arms against his human comrades to help the blue aliens. Jon chooses his NW comrades over the wildlings, which I think is crucial- he doesn't truly 'go over' to the wildlings and save them. He sides with the NW against the wildlings, and then later allies with them against a different threat.

[butterbumps!]

Hello! In your post you ask how is he going to be a traditional hero if he doesn't fulfill everything and in reply I say he fulfills one (I was referring to McWhitey) but GRRM could still change the others.

What does that have to do with my thoughts on him being generic?

You didn't move on. You kept arguing points about "implications" you thought I was making and when I told you that you were wrong you still kept going on about it.

oh good lord. I asked you why you thought he was generic. You responded with a list of tropes, ostensibly answering my question about why you thought he was generic. You mentioned the McWhitey trope in that post, but did not call it out specifically as something you took issue with on a personal level until later in our exchange. Also, give me a break. Go back to each one of my posts. You weren't actually answering any of my questions about Jon, but hellbent on arguing with me about whether I was getting your position right. At your behest, I kept explaining why I thought you were arguing certain things according to what was actually written in your posts, but also kept opening it up to actually discuss whatever your actual position is about facets of Jon and about why you thought the things you were claiming are important for the discussion in your opinion.

None of which you have even remotely attempted to answer.

And, none of this "STOP READING MY POSTS WRONG" tomfoolerly pertains to Jon.

Please do not respond to me unless a real explanation of any of the questions I have repeatedly asked you are part of it, such as

1. Why you believe Jon is generic

2. What precisely about Jon's interactions with the wildlings offends you

3. Why you believe it's important to box things into tropes neatly? As in, what is the lesson you believe is gained from doing so?

True that Jon isn't the ONLY one who recognizes the wildlings as men, but interestingly, by the time the whole showdown with Marsh's crew occurs in ADWD, he seems to me the only NW man left with significant power/gravitas who knows this. Mormont, Qhorin, Sam, Aemon, Stannis, et al., are all either dead, or at least away from the Wall and unable to influence the men or try to sway them to their side.

Val is also conventionally beautiful in the way Ygritte supposedly wasn't. (Though she seems to be considered a "catch" by many wildling men.) I'll also note that what also made me not that invested in Book!Ygritte is that Jon accepts pretty much everything she says as the Last Word on Wildling Culture, and so far, GRRM hasn't subverted that. Even though Mance's army is made up of all sorts of different wildling "tribes" from all over the North, and I doubt every single wildling woman loves the idea of being stolen by a strong man as Ygritte claims, anymore than every woman in Westeros loves the idea of being married off by her father (or other male relative) to a stranger for political gain.

(Reminds me of a similar complaint about the Dothraki, that they're all portrayed as pillaging rapists with no real distinction between different Khals and Khalasars, whereas, for example, Stannis's army is much more disciplined, and less inclined to rape, than Tywin's army, even though both Stannis and Tywin share the same generic Westerosi culture.)

As for the whole McWhitey trope, the problem with it, and I suspect why AN finds it so offensive, isn't the idea of a white man being the hero. It's idea that ONLY white men can be heroes (even if they are Enlightened White Men) and how many movies and other pop culture stories shoehorn white male characters into hero/protagonist roles, even in stories that are mostly about non-white-male struggles. Now, GRRM may still wind up deconstructing this the same way he's started to deconstruct the trope as it applies to Dany, I hope he does, and I really hope he doesn't have him hook up with Val, because that will really be reverting to tropey-ness if he does that.

Well, the thing is, when Jon was with the wildlings, he actually didn't have any power to do anything about it. Though Jon's the one who spends time with them, it's actually Stannis who "saves" a large segment of them from their fate. So Stannis is the one with that power, and would fit that part of the trope better. Jon lets the rest come in his penultimate DwD chapter, just before he's killed.

On the latter portion, I can get behind the idea of a SWM being the only configuration able to "rescue" a group of people as being problematic, but I guess, Mance and Stannis are sharing that role as well. Mance was the Moses figure for them, and Stannis is the "benevolent" king who brought in the flock. My issue is that I think calling this a SWM rescue is missing the nuance of the power dynamic going on. Jon is actually not their rescuer. In fact, the one who did adopt their customs (Mance) failed to save them, while Stannis hardly fulfills the cultural exchange part of the trope that's being discussed.

[ARYa_Nym]

No, it does mean that. A trope is a well-worn artistic device, the term doesn't apply to the real world.

This is a film based off of RL events. His character is someone the audience can identify with. They can try to identify with Epps and sympathize with him (I've seen Vanity Fair interviews where this is done) but Brad's character was the hero.

And there are many ways in which the Northerners are more similar to the wildlings than to the Southerners. Does the difference between the Southerners and Northerners make Stannis an example of the McWhitey trope for saving the North from wildling invasion, ingratiating himself with Northerners, and then helping them fight off the Ironborn?

The North is part of the Seven Kingdoms. They kneel. They have succession laws. They have marriage and strict codes of society. They have laws and institutions that uphold them. The wildlings do not.

I'll admit that my memory of Avatar is rusty, but, as I recall, he ultimately takes up arms against his human comrades to help the blue aliens. Jon chooses his NW comrades over the wildlings, which I think is crucial- he doesn't truly 'go over' to the wildlings and save them. He sides with the NW against the wildlings, and then later allies with them against a different threat.

That was then but in ADWD he's the one who is helping them and trying to save them. They are looking to him as their guide.

The ones who fulfill this trope don't actually literally have to become one of them like in Avatar especially if they lead them to civilization.

<snip>

Look, you're never going to get it so it's done.

I agree with you that the wildling culture is not actually as different from "Northman" culture as, say, the Na'vi and human culture are different in Avatar. However, I think he still fits the trope because Jon is in the minority among the NW in seeing the similarities. Jon has to "remind" other NW-men that the wildlings actually qualify as the "men" they swore to defend when they swore to "guard the realms of men".

Now, some people in the NW do agree with Jon, the same way some humans in Avatar did agree with the protagonist, Jake -- I actually had to look up what his name is in the movie, "Sam" is the name of the actor who plays him, Sam Worthington. But they're not protagonists, they don't drive the plot forward the same way Jake does in Avatar, or Jon does in his chapters.

I guess another issue with Jon is that while he's not the only protagonist, it's obvious that everyone he meets at the Wall, except for Stannis and Mel, are there to support Jon's story arc, not to be protagonists themselves. Whereas someone like Tyrion interacts with many who are protagonists in their own right, such as Cersei, Jaime, Sansa, LF, and likely eventually Dany. (Dany too, has been isolated from other protagonist characters so far.)

(BTW, AN, do you think Bran is a McWhitey as well? His storyline has similarities with Jake too, he's also a paraplegic, the weirwood network is reminscent of the Tree of Souls? And in his case, he seems to be superficially the "savior" of a humanoid-but-not-human species, the COTF.)

However, though I think Jon fits the "McWhitey" trope enough that I find it problematic, but that it's not enough to totally ruin my enjoyment of him as a character the way it seems to have for AN. (Though I do admit that I dislike Theon for similar reasons, based on how his fans woobify him, excuse everything he does, and present him as a Victim of Society even though he too likely had a better life than 99% of Westeros, pre-Ramsay of course.)

With Bran I think we know too little about what's going on. What the COTF are doing with him. What the Others want. Is Bran going to be a hero or go down a dark path, etc.

I don't solely dislike him because of that. I mean I like Dany and she has traces of it too but like I said she may not be depicted as a hero. Although the show (which I dislike) really made me tune out with that last scene.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Out of all the POV characters I would say that Jon comes the closest to the concept Mary Sue, but he still isn't one.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

This is a film based off of RL events. His character is someone the audience can identify with. They can try to identify with Epps and sympathize with him (I've seen Vanity Fair interviews where this is done) but Brad's character was the hero.

You're just ignoring the point. Brad Pitt's character, Samuel Bass, was a real person. The label 'trope' cannot be applied to a real historical figure, period.

The North is part of the Seven Kingdoms. They kneel. They have succession laws. They have marriage and strict codes of society. They have laws and institutions that uphold them. The wildlings do not.

Yes, these are the differences. Now for the similarities once more: religion, ancestry, language, myth. In Avatar there were none of these similarities.

And I'll ask again, given the cultural differences between North and South within the Seven Kingdoms, is Stannis a McWhitey savior of the North?

That was then but in ADWD he's the one who is helping them and trying to save them. They are looking to him as their guide.

The ones who fulfill this trope don't actually literally have to become one of them like in Avatar especially if they lead them to civilization.

But he also requires something of them- this is one of his main arguments for letting them through the wall. Jon needs the help of the wildlings to protect the realm against the Others. They're helping to save him, the NW, and the realm as much as he's helping to save them. Jon hasn't led them to civilization, he's allied with them to combat a threat to the entire human race.

Look, you're never going to get it so it's done.

It sure seems like a deflection to insist that your posts are being read incorrectly and then outright refuse to answer some clear questions that could only help to move the discussion on from the apparent misunderstanding.

[Queen Whore]

Well it got real heated in here. lots of walls of text and big words.

Anyway, I take back what I said about jon being a generic character. Hes not generic, I was using the wrong word. I just think hes a loser sexy beast. I should have been clearer with my intent.

Fixed!

[ARYa_Nym]

You're just ignoring the point. Brad Pitt's character, Samuel Bass, was a real person. The label 'trope' cannot be applied to a real historical figure, period.

But he is still a white savior. He's just the RL version of mighty whitey.

Yes, these are the differences. Now for the similarities once more: religion, ancestry, language, myth. In Avatar there were none of these similarities.

That doesn't matter. Jon was raised with nobles. They would be the tribe in this scenario with Mance the chief. He doesn't get with the chief's daughter (it's not absolutely necessary) but he does have 2 wildling love interests. He inspires and leads them.

And I'll ask again, given the cultural differences between North and South within the Seven Kingdoms, is Stannis a McWhitey savior of the North?

No. He is not a true hero in the series (sorry Stannis fans) but misdirection or midseries filler as one poster liked to say. He still is not regarded as their leader. He did not live with them and adapt their ways. He is not morally superior-it's motivated out of self interest and does not care about them as people. The Northerners aren't depicted to be so drastically behind him in terms of the advancement of their society.

But he also requires something of them- this is one of his main arguments for letting them through the wall. Jon needs the help of the wildlings to protect the realm against the Others. They're helping to save him, the NW, and the realm as much as he's helping to save them. Jon hasn't led them to civilization, he's allied with them to combat a threat to the entire human race.

He hasn't civilized them yet but pairing Alys Karstark and the Thenns could be a step in the right direction. Introducing the wildlings at the Wall into the North or the Gift could be a way.

They would be wights though if he had not banded them together so it still applies even if he needs them to stay alive.