Why do some dislike Sansa ?

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Do they? I think most people compare her to her sister, and some people, find she compares unfavorably to Arya. Sansa's fans always say they don't mind this, but will still argue against anything that is remotely critical of Sansa, like her being generally passive. Clearly, she is more passive than her sister, by nature, she was more passive at Winterfell, when she did as she was told and excelled at what she was supposed to excel at and didn't break rules, all well before anything went bad. There is nothing wrong with being a 'good girl' who doesn't break the rules, it is not inherently negative, but when compared to other characters who take risks, do more to change their circumstances, then not everyone is going to find it compares favorably. I don't understand why this view is seen as so terrible. She's not a bad person, she's generally a good person, but in my opinion, she still, even now, tries too hard to please. She still, even now, does what LF tells her, plays the role he wants her to play exactly as he tells her to play it. I don't see how this is not passive.

Trying to please is not really passivity. Fitting in is not passivity. I've came to notice how fitting in is usually considered negative to most, as a sign of passivity, but Sansa had no reason to rebel against the system. She excelled at the system. Why should that be considered a sign of passivity? Also, Sansa was ambitious at AGOT. She wanted to be Queen. The fact that she goes to the Queen without her father's approval shows that she's quite active.

[Cas Stark]

Trying to please is not really passivity. Fitting in is not passivity. I've came to notice how fitting in is usually considered negative to most, as a sign of passivity, but Sansa had no reason to rebel against the system. She excelled at the system. Why should that be considered a sign of passivity? Also, Sansa was ambitious at AGOT. She wanted to be Queen. The fact that she goes to the Queen without her father's approval shows that she's quite active.

Okay, that's a fair point. If you excel at the system you have no reason to question it or wish to change it. Maybe that is conformity then and not passivity.

[wargalicious]

she's not passive, she's just not badass and people confuse non-badassosserousness with passivity. Her activity is wearing the mask of passivity and people just don't get it.

[Epyon]

erm, WOW I'm not really sure what it was about my post that gave the impression that I think everyone who dislikes Sansa is sexist. I pointed out that when people state their reasons for disliking Sansa often there are sexist elements to that dislike, often they are very subtle. I used a really good example of that.

Now I don't think that every person who dislikes her does so because she is a girl, I saw a clear example of one that does though and used it to illustrate a point. What you feel has nothing to do with what I was saying. We happen to see feminism very differently. I obviously feel my own interpretation is more accurate. As I am sure you probably do as well. No doubt my stance is as bewildering to you as yours is to me. But I don't think even you could argue that the phrase used in the post I quoted was not a clear example of sexism.

" Even amongst other females."

I don't think it is at all possible to not see the problem with this turn of phrase. Its loaded with the implication that women are inferior.

I don't see the point in your post at all. Are you trying to tell me that people never dislike Sansa because she is a female who shows traditional female traits? because I simply don't think that is true. People often state they dislike the way she is passive, she doesn't kick arse, she doesn't use any weapons or they don't like that she likes traditional feminine pursuits. I personally count that as sexism, as its a symptom of the way society devalues the female role. But we've had this discussion before.

I think you are jumping to conclusions, and twisting my own words to mean something I did not say, or even imply.

My first two examples, where Tyrion and Littlefinger because those are:

-Arguably the two smartest "scheming" type characters in the whole series.

-The two with whom she spends the most time.

However, knowing that some posters here like hide like to behind accusations of sexism, in order to justify others' negative opininions regarding Sansa, I felt it was best to also make at least a couple comparisons to notable women in the books as well.

Basic reading comprehension simply cannot be this difficult for you. Your accusations are baseless and incorrect, and have already been disputed in meaning and intent by the poster who wrote them. But please, do go on cherry picking comments to bolster your theories, while ignoring all arguments to the contrary. And feel free to continue applying the label of "Sexist" to all of those whom disagree with you about a fictional character, in series of books. Neither of those actions may make your assertions correct, but at the very least they do make you more entertaining than Sansa...

Now then, to spell it out as clearly as I possibly can, and hopefully avoid any confusion .....

I dislike Sansa because she is a puppet. She may be a victim of horrible circumstances, but she is still a puppet... She possesses none of the strength, charms, intelligence, foresight, or even the resolve to do anything but let others pull her strings, and dance helplessly along like a marionette. One day, perhaps she will finally develop at least one of those skills, and seize control of her own destiny. Until then, however, she remains a character I would have little to no respect for, and one I find myself completely unable to relate to. In the meantime, I find her story arc to be easily the worst in the entire series, as there really hasn't been any significant growth from her. And no matter how many times you insist on insulting me with the term sexist, not a single part of that has anything to do with the fact that she's a female character...

[WolfOfWinter]

The reason nobody bothers to cite specific examples is because they consider it self-evident, but fine, here goes.

It starts right from the beginning: she bullies her sister using Jeyne Poole as a wingman, she's elitist, looks down on Mycah and says "Arya would make friends with anybody" as if that's a bad thing. Then she goes and lies about the incident along the Trident just because she doesn't like Arya and wants Joffrey to like her even though she knows full well that Joff was in the wrong - classic Alpha Bitch behavior.

She throws a bratty hissy fit when Arya gets orange juice on her dress, says all kinds of nasty things to her sister for no good reason, continues to see Joffrey as a gallant perfect prince despite obvious red flags and then betrays her father's plans to Cersei. Granted, she had no idea how much danger her family was in, so I don't hold it too hard against the poor girl, but nothing changes the fact that, before Ned's beheading, she was most definitely a brat.

After her father's downfall and execution, Sansa changes. She loses her illusions and reorients her priorities. She gains greater compassion and better sense. I wouldn't say that she loses her innocence - in many ways she is actually more innocent than she was before her father died. She becomes the tragic maiden that I'm very fond of and leaves the brattiness, pettiness and most of the stupidity behind her.

The fighting went both ways, Arya and Sansa constantly fought each other. It was never just one person bullying the other as if they'd just lie there and take it. And there were plenty of instances where Arya either antagonized Sansa or assumed the worst of her. These quotes are from Arya's first chapter.

"He's our brother," Arya said, much too loudly. Her voice cut through the afternoon quiet of the tower room.

Septa Mordane raised her eyes. She had a bony face, sharp eyes, and a thin lipless mouth made for frowning. It was frowning now. "What are you talking about, children?"

"Our half brother," Sansa corrected, soft and precise. She smiled for the septa. "Arya and I were remarking on how pleased we were to have the princess with us today," she said.

Septa Mordane nodded. "Indeed. A great honor for us all." Princess Myrcella smiled uncertainly at the compliment. "Arya, why aren't you at work?" the septa asked. She rose to her feet, starched skirts rustling as she started across the room. "Let me see your stitches."

Arya wanted to scream. It was just like Sansa to go and attract the septa's attention.

Arya's the one who draws attention to them by raising her voice yet she blames Sansa.

The septa examined the fabric. "Arya, Arya, Arya," she said. "This will not do. This will not do at all."

Everyone was looking at her. It was too much. Sansa was too well bred to smile at her sister's disgrace, but Jeyne was smirking on her behalf.

There's no reason that Sansa would take pleasure in watching Arya fail, quite the contrary since we know in aSoS that Sansa wishes Arya had been more ladylike so why would she laugh at her failing at trying? Again, Arya assumes the worst of her.

It wasn't fair. Sansa had everything. Sansa was two years older; maybe by the time Arya had been born, there had been nothing left. Often it felt that way. Sansa could sew and dance and sing. She wrote poetry. She knew how to dress. She played the high harp and the bells. Worse, she was beautiful.

There's jealousy there. Arya's horrible to Sansa because she's jealous of her. Sansa's horrible to Arya because she wants her to be more ladylike. It goes both ways. Lots of sisters fight. My sister and I do all the time but that doesn't mean we don't love each other.

If she disliked Arya as you claim and just wanted to gain Joffrey's favor then she would've told them Arya was the one at fault. She didn't though. She chose neutrality and so she never sided with either of the two characters. Besides, she'd already told Ned the truth and we have no idea what he told her to say. Judging by his lack of reaction he didn't seem very surprised by her testimony so he might have approved.

Arya didn't just accidentally get juice on Sansa's dress, she threw it at her.

"Go ahead, call me all the names you want," Sansa said airily. "You won't dare when I'm married to Joffrey. You'll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace."

She shrieked as Arya flung the orange across the table. It caught her in the middle of the forehead with a wet squish and plopped down into her lap.

"You have juice on your face, Your Grace," Arya said.

It was running down her nose and stinging her eyes. Sansa wiped it away with a napkin. When she saw what the fruit in her lap had done to her beautiful ivory silk dress, she shrieked again.

Wait, are you counting this incident as proof of Sansa being a brat? Because she got angry over her ruined dress?

Ned believed the best of people too, did it make him a brat? Besides, he never warned Sansa of the dangers in KL like he did with Arya. How was she supposed to know the queen and prince were bad people when her own father didn't break off the engagement? And when he finally did, he didn't bother telling her the reason for it.

She's elitist, yes. She's naive and delusional and believes the best of people but none of those traits make her a brat.

[Jojosh]

Arya is definitely active. She does for herself and guiles her way through situations always recalling her lessons from syrio.

Sansa is fumbling in the dark depending on whoever will be her knight in shining armor at the moment to rescue her.

Judging either on the mentality of how a child acts Arya has done a lot more maturing. Even now GRRM is saddling Sansa with the beauty to entice all the creepers of westeros and she still isn't taking advantage of it.