Why do some dislike Sansa ?

[~DarkHorse~]

Some of the hate Sansa gets is ridiculous and some people *cough* Sansa is no Stark, she has no North in her *cough* are too blind to see how alike she is to papa Stark (Ned).

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Please, Weirwood, do not make the mistake to see it as being sexist or "antifeminist" if people like Sansa less.

I for example have very valid AND feminist reasons to be less intrigued by the idea that Sansa is seen as paragon of feminist development in these books. I am no less a feminist for it, we simply have different political convictions while both seeing ourselves as feminist. I do not see any reason that - as feminist - i should defend every female character. Actually female literary characters should be entitled to be not better, not more clever or more competent than male protagonists, they are part of the books with all their flaws, it is their equal right to be as boring or as interesting as male characters, we are talking books here. Martin has written several strong female chaacters and one, Sansa, is less so, actually she may be quite typical for her world. Which does not mean that she is less strongly written, actually her chapters are great literature and make me relate more to her than I would with a less competent writer.

It is NOT antifeminist to be bored by Sansa, some are, unbelievable to me, even bored by Dany or Cat. Sansa is not real. And I am for sure not untouched by the suffering of a young girl in RL. She deserves all my help even if she were not the most interesting child.

Here we talk books - there we talk RL. We should know the difference before going after posters with different opinions.

And, Purrl1, a woman, or a man come to that, who loves to knit and does lots of interesting things in life, would never have the lack of self confidence it takes to be offended by being called boring for knitting. They would simply laugh and shake it off.

I am good at knitting and I am proud if someone likes my design and not touchy at all. Because I know that I am in the middle of life in so many ways, I do not knit "Instead".

Apart from that there are great fashion designers, male and female, whose creations are based on knitting. And you can just as well waste your time with mindlessly repairing cars, come to that.

erm, WOW I'm not really sure what it was about my post that gave the impression that I think everyone who dislikes Sansa is sexist. I pointed out that when people state their reasons for disliking Sansa often there are sexist elements to that dislike, often they are very subtle. I used a really good example of that.

Now I don't think that every person who dislikes her does so because she is a girl, I saw a clear example of one that does though and used it to illustrate a point. What you feel has nothing to do with what I was saying. We happen to see feminism very differently. I obviously feel my own interpretation is more accurate. As I am sure you probably do as well. No doubt my stance is as bewildering to you as yours is to me. But I don't think even you could argue that the phrase used in the post I quoted was not a clear example of sexism.

" Even amongst other females."

I don't think it is at all possible to not see the problem with this turn of phrase. Its loaded with the implication that women are inferior.

I don't see the point in your post at all. Are you trying to tell me that people never dislike Sansa because she is a female who shows traditional female traits? because I simply don't think that is true. People often state they dislike the way she is passive, she doesn't kick arse, she doesn't use any weapons or they don't like that she likes traditional feminine pursuits. I personally count that as sexism, as its a symptom of the way society devalues the female role. But we've had this discussion before.

I have a big problem with the way people speak about Dany's sexuality too and will defend Brienne vehemently. I really get annoyed when people call Cat stupid for releasing Jamie, as she was just doing what she thought would best help her get her daughters home safe, when her son, their brother had refused to use Jamie to get them returned. Which frankly is an in world example of sexism. One man is worth more than two girls. I have no problem with the misogyny in the books I think its good that one can read about a world with a strong level of patriarchy as it challenges us to examine the patriarchy which remains in our own world. It was not that long ago we lived with a very similar culture we are still living with its hangover.

There are plenty of female characters I feel no need to defend at all. Its not about blindly defending the women in the story. I take issue with the way some people have been derogatory in regard to raising the issue of sexism, the issue is real and to ridicule those of us who raise it is pathetic. I'm really disappointed in those who have used that approach.

[Cas Stark]

Why does passivity even equate to gender? Doran Martell has sat on his a** for almost 20 years, doing nothing but talk, he is passive, he only acts when there is no other alternative.

[Rickeen Stark]

half the forum are crushing on dacey :leer: :lol:

She sounds hawt and is a mormont. I would!

[butterbumps!]

Why does passivity even equate to gender? Doran Martell has sat on his a** for almost 20 years, doing nothing but talk, he is passive, he only acts when there is no other alternative.

Yea, ok, this is deflection. I asked you to define "passive" and made no reference whatsoever to gender as part of that. Passivity in relation to gender isn't the issue.

I'm asking you defend your view of Sansa as "passive," in fact "the most passive in the series," and to do so based on strictly on analysis of the text. You cite "passivity" frequently as a criticism of Sansa, and so I am asking how exactly are you defining "passive."

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Why does passivity even equate to gender? Doran Martell has sat on his a** for almost 20 years, doing nothing but talk, he is passive, he only acts when there is no other alternative.

It is an odd society we live in. Even intelligence is equated with gender. -_- Guess which gender it is associated with.

[Cas Stark]

Yea, ok, this is deflection. I asked you to define "passive" and made no reference whatsoever to gender as part of that. Passivity in relation to gender isn't the issue.

I'm asking you defend your view of Sansa as "passive," in fact "the most passive in the series," and to do so based on strictly on analysis of the text. You cite "passivity" frequently as a criticism of Sansa, and so I am asking how exactly are you defining "passive."

It isn't deflection, but whatever.

Why do I need to define passive for you? I define it as the dictionary defines it, as it is normally understood in conversations. This is just a set up to then use semantics to argue why Sansa isn't passive, I have played that game before. As well I have cited and copied passages from the text only to be told that the plain language and straighforward interpretation means something else and my reading is outragious and biased and demented. So, again, thanks but no thanks.

[SpringKing]

It is an odd society we live in. Even intelligence is equated with gender. -_- Guess which gender it is associated with.

The double reference to Sansa sucking at sums is a distinct signal her street smarts are zero.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I think, in general, not only in regards to Sansa, female characters are usually given higher standards to maintain than male characters. Be it on GOT or any other book/Tv-series/Movie. That's why you can notice how female characters usually are much more disliked in general in regards to multiple fanbases, at least from my own observations from various fans I have met. But That's not my point.

I do think hating Sansa because she is boring to some is a valid form of hating. I don't think claiming Sansa is not a Stark, not a Wolf, not of the North is just plain stupid, when you really read the books, not just skip her chapters. Most of the hater comes from sheer stupidity rather than objective thought ("Sansa did not kneel to Tyrion because she's a stupid bitch", ignoring that it was his family forcing her at sword-point to marry him and his nephew being the one that chopped her father's head off)

[butterbumps!]

It isn't deflection, but whatever.

Why do I need to define passive for you? I define it as the dictionary defines it, as it is normally understood in conversations. This is just a set up to then use semantics to argue why Sansa isn't passive, I have played that game before. As well I have cited and copied passages from the text only to be told that the plain language and straighforward interpretation means something else and my reading is outragious and biased and demented. So, again, thanks but no thanks.

Uh, because you are using it in a way that bastardizes its meaning in order to apply it to Sansa? The fact that you believe Doran is also "passive" kind of reveals that you don't actually understand the meaning of "passive."

Passivity isn't about a level of physical activity. Failure to act in a way that can be empirically measured (such as literally moving, giving orders, punching someone in the face) is not the meaning of "passive." Someone who actually is passive never questions what other people tell them to do. There would be no defiance or critique there at all. This is not the case with Sansa (or Doran, for that matter). "Passive" as you're using it in a condemnatory manner is to say that she has no independent thought or intention at all.

If what you really mean is that you believe she is the one character most circumscribed from overtly acting in measurable ways, and that you dislike the scenario of prevention from acting for any character in general, then say that, and stop trying to attribute Sansa's circumstances to some inherent lack of her person. She does not internalize or accept those circumstances that prevent her from acting outwardly, so stop speaking to her alleged "passivity," what what you really dislike is the fact that her arc is circumscribed by captivity.

[Cas Stark]

1. pas·sive

   ˈpasiv/

   adjective

   adjective: passive

   1. 1.

      accepting or allowing what happens or what others do, without active response or resistance.

(1) : acted upon by an external agency

(2) : tending not to take an active or dominant part

1. Receiving or subjected to an action without responding or initiating an action in return

Existing, conducted, or experienced without active or concerted effort

[butterbumps!]

1. pas·sive

   ˈpasiv/

   adjective

   adjective: passive

   1. 1.

      accepting or allowing what happens or what others do, without active response or resistance.

(1) : acted upon by an external agency

(2) : tending not to take an active or dominant part

Oh my good lord.

You do realize that Sansa's ongoing refusal to accept what others do with her, define her as, and intention to stop being used thusly is an active response, right? Or does she have to literally tell Joff "fuck you and the horse you rode in on" (which, incidentally, she once did) in order to make it seem more active to you?

Since you have also admitted that not showing outward signs of rebellion is the only way should could survive under the conditions in questions, why are you calling her inherently passive, and doing so as a criticism?

This makes no sense. You say she cannot show outward signs of rebellion, yet hate the fact that she does not show signs of outward rebellion. And ignore her ongoing internal rebellion.

If your complaint is that you dislike a character who's arc is so delimited by captivity that they cannot show outward signs of defiance, then say that. But stop trying to pass it off as though Sansa is somehow actually accepting and endorsing that captivity and inability to control her circumstances.

[HexMachina]

Sansa is responsible for one of the greatest atrocities in the series. She has brought about the loss of lemons in Westeros. Now they must all survive the Long Night without lemons. I hope she is happy :angry:

:p

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I don't know why people get the idea that Sansa is passive. She is put in a passive position. Major difference. Personally I find her behaviour in King's Landing passive aggressive. If Sansa was truly a passive person she would have not saved Dontos nor would she have taken the risk of going to the godswood. Let alone take a dagger with her to protect herself if needed. Nor would she have thought I quote: "If it is some trap, better that I die than let them hurt me more."

[Ser Lady Stark Martell]

Sansa is sooooooo passive. She should have stolen a sword right out of The Hound's hand, cut down Joffrey and 1000 knights, drove the sword right through Cersei's heart and left King's Landing in a horse while having a lemon cake and making out with Loras Tyrell.

[BitsOfBrains]

The wedding she was forced into without warning? Sansa's refusing to kneel is symbolic of her refusal to consent to this arrangement (not that the Lannister's care about her consent) not her feelings about Tyrion. She not allowed to say no, so instead she she's saying "I don't want this." Tyrion's doing nothing to help her here, and has never had her interest in mind, so why should she care about sparing his pride?

Yeah I don't fault her for her Tyrion wedding incident either. That was like the worst thing she could have possibly imagined. She wanted, (and by all rights should have had) a strong handsome gallant husband but instead got a disfigured mutilated dwarf pervert. I like Tyrion in the first couple books (before the "poor me" binge) but I can see why she had every reason to expect/want a better husband.

There are a few thing I'm not touching on since myself and others have already pointed out but...

She most certainly did not sell out Jeyne Poole. All she said was that Jeyne was with her and scared because she hadn't seen her father in a long time. LF then said he could take care of her and Sansa really believed he would help.

She's wasn't "meh" about Ser Dontos's death.

If you reread that chapter you will see what a little disloyal ummm... I am searching for another word besides bitch but am coming up short. She is like, "she is such a child, why wont she stop crying" and multiple times thinks how obnoxious the girl is. Granted she had no way of knowing what would happen, but the tone of her thoughts about Jeyne are just bitchy.

And she spared Dontos, what, three sentences?

The aunt who tried to murder her and Marillion who tried to rape her. Even though she owes them jack shit she still felt bad about their death.

I don't fault her for the Aunt/Marillion stuff either. Marillion was a scumbo and her aunt was crazy and might have been intending to kill her.

Ned sold Ned out to Cersei too and she was never given the warning that Arya was about the dangers of KL

She was quite nice to Arya at times. She gets crap for her first actions in Arya's first POV, but she doesn't make fun of her and actually asks her opinion of Joffrey and Arya is nasty to her. Plus, she is technically correct that Jon is a half brother (Edit: well, most likely incorrect, but whatever).

She was going to marry that little sadistic douche bag and went the path of minimal conflict with both sides (I don't remember). She couldn't know that Cersei had a death warrant on the two wolves

She just mentioned that Jeyne was there…hardly selling her out. How long could she have hidden her?

Dontos was a dick. He literally sold her out. Plus, what's she going to do? Draw a sword and avenge him?

Cersei was going to act but Sansa betrayed Neds "battle plan". It doesn't matter that Sansa was given a warning about how dangerous KL was, she was specifically told not to speak with Joffrey or the queen and did so anyway. There is no other way to read that besides betraying your own father to people you have personally witnessed and know to be pieces of shit.

I don't recall any time Sansa was more than polite with Arya. And no one else refers to Jon Snow as their, "half brother". Its just a polite way of constantly reminding everyone that Jon is a bastard, like anyone has forgotten.

Its not really her actions that I fault her in regards to Jeyne Poole. Its her thoughts during that whole chapter. Its just this constant bitchy, "why wont this child shut up" inner dialogue that reveals her to have no loyalty to her people.

Ned told her she didn't have to marry Joffrey anymore and she still sold him out. That first time when they killed her wolf I could forgive to smooth the road ahead, but the second betrayl after Ned tells her she doesn't have to marry Joffrey anymore and specifically tells her not to talk to the Lanisters is unforgivable.

Like I said though I don't dislike Sansa though. She is just a little girl at that age where you expect a teenage girl to be self centered and bitchy.

Now if she walked around like, "I am the rightful queen of the north and everyone should do what I say because I say so!" I would hate her, but she is just a lost little girl in a shitty situation being used and abused by everyone who can and its only a matter of time before someone rapes her or something. She was already molested by Pycell and had the constant threat of rape from Tyrion or Joffrey hanging over her head.

She has done a lot of stupid disloyal selfish things but she is just a little girl and not every daughter can be as loyal and tough as Arya.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I do not know why people hold Sansa on the same level of criticism as the adults in this series who have done things that makes her mistakes look practically nonexistent.

[Cas Stark]

I do not know why people hold Sansa on the same level of criticism as the adult who have done things that makes her mistakes look practically nothing.

Do they? I think most people compare her to her sister, and some people, find she compares unfavorably to Arya. Sansa's fans always say they don't mind this, but will still argue against anything that is remotely critical of Sansa, like her being generally passive. Clearly, she is more passive than her sister, by nature, she was more passive at Winterfell, when she did as she was told and excelled at what she was supposed to excel at and didn't break rules, all well before anything went bad. There is nothing wrong with being a 'good girl' who doesn't break the rules, it is not inherently negative, but when compared to other characters who take risks, do more to change their circumstances, then not everyone is going to find it compares favorably. I don't understand why this view is seen as so terrible. She's not a bad person, she's generally a good person, but in my opinion, she still, even now, tries too hard to please. She still, even now, does what LF tells her, plays the role he wants her to play exactly as he tells her to play it. I don't see how this is not passive.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think you are jumping to conclusions, and twisting my own words to mean something I did not say, or even imply.

My first two examples, where Tyrion and Littlefinger because those are:

-Arguably the two smartest "scheming" type characters in the whole series.

-The two with whom she spends the most time.

However, knowing that some posters here like hide like to behind accusations of sexism, in order to justify others' negative opininions regarding Sansa, I felt it was best to also make at least a couple comparisons to notable women in the books as well.

But you didn't make comparisons to those women, you said Even amongst females. Which implies you feel deep down that women are somehow lesser. Its the word Even that shows you up. I am most certainly not Hiding behind accusations of sexism, and the fact you see it that way is yet another thing which shows you up. Pointing out sexism is not hiding behind it. It is pointing it out and an attempt to make women who do so feel intimidated by going on a booing and jeering fest, which was I might add begun even before any one raised the subject, is an embarrassment. I'm really disappointed to see such puerile behaviour.

I have certainly lost a lot of respect for certain members due to that.

Here is another example. BTW ", I felt it was best to also make at least a couple comparisons to notable women in the books as well." You feel the two afore mentioned men are the leading minds in Westeros with regard to scheming, fair enough. But you felt you ought to include some token women, whom you already devalued by using the word Even with regards to them being female, but now they are also being included merely as token women.

I don't need to dig the whole your doing a grand job.

[SpringKing]

I don't know why people get the idea that Sansa is passive. She is put in a passive position. Major difference.

For the same reason people think Arya is active. Both have been put in those contrasting positions on purpose. You cant interpret a character as you would a real person. What the character says and does is carefully calculated by the author.