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Jon Snow Arc Changes in Game of Thrones Season 4 [Book Spoilers]


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#1 Jon Snow the Omniscient

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 01:26 AM

If you've been keeping up with the news regarding the fourth season of the show, then you probably know that Jon Snow's story will be changed from what unfolded in the books. Not as much as Theon/Asha's story is being changed, but still to a slightly unsettling degree.

https://www.youtube....h?v=xZY43QSx3Fk

              0:47 of this video shows a wildling raid, presumably on one of the towns that Styr and/or Tormund's host loots on their merry way to Castle Black. At first I thought that this might be the route at the Battle for Castle Black (as the shot that we get involves a dude being grabbed from behind and throat-slashed), but the scene takes place during the daytime, and I have reason to believe that that is a change the show will not make. 0:48 of the trailer shows Ygritte along with a bunch of other wildlings as they move closer to the Wall. This, along with the scene that took place a second prior, leads me to believe that we may get an "Ygritte POV" this season, which could be all kinds of epic, and a welcome addition to the series. Then, at 0:50, we get a scene of people on horses moving through an ice tunnel. Aside from the possibility of Bran and Co. travelling through the Wall at the very beginning of next season, I have no idea what this might hold. It could even be Donal Noye and friends going to fight Mag the Mighty, who is shown a couple of seconds later barging into a gate. Once again, this would be an awesome addition as Noye taking Mag down with him via throat-stab is a favorite "fist-bump" moment for a lot of readers.

            However, we also get a flash of dialogue where Jon says: "If the wildlings breach the Wall, they'll roll over everything and everyone..." This sounds an awful lot like a battle speech, which might mean that Jon is in command when a particular battle takes place, which means Donal Noye won't be in command, which means that there probably won't be a Donal Noye, which means fire and blood. I'm not saying the we won't get Captain "Too Badass To Not Kill Giants With One Hand While On The Verge Of Death" (and I am far from being an expert authority on anything, so don't worry too much), but leadership being quickly pushed on the hero is generally just something that happens in fiction a lot, and definitely a possibility here. 

            The truly alarming change comes at 0:57, with Rast placing a baby in the snow for the Others, which point to more focus on the traitors who killed the Old Bear. Why is this alarming? Shouldn't we be welcoming this change, as it makes Rast an actually meaningful character and not that asshole who got some unlucky spear shoved into him? But at 1:22, we see Jon and a bunch of other crows charging towards Craster's Keep (it's definitely Craster's Keep, notice the trees and the stakes that have been shoved into the ground) and he swings Longclaw at some unlucky bastard who happens to be wearing a black cloak. Not to mention the footage shown in the second trailer, where Jon says: "He was betrayed by his own men, all we can give him now is justice." (I will say that this line is somewhat refreshing in the way that Jon doesn't seem to be in charge, so we might still get Donal Noye after all) This indicates that Jon is not only going to defend Castle Black, but take down the rogue crows as well. Which is all fine and good... if this was happening in the fifth season. I don't mean to be cynical, but I'm starting to get the vibe that Jon's Season 4 story arc is going to be kind of overcrowded. Why do we need a diverging Craster-Vengeance subplot when we already have the massive Wildling plot that has been foreshadowed and given background since Episode 1 and is supposed to climax this season. A Sam-Gilly relationship subplot? Fine, as it doesn't change the main focus of Jon's story. A Jon-Sam relationship subplot? Fine, as it doesn't change the main focus of the story. A Jon-Rast vengeance subplot? Not fine, as it involves Jon going miles out of his way to kill a bunch of non-threats when the shield that guards the realms of men is about to take a knife to the back.

               What do you think of these new subplots and POVs? Did you find any more important info? What other changes do you believe will take place?



#2 Kienn

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 01:35 AM

That's a lot of assumptions, but my favorite is this

 

I have reason to believe that that is a change the show will not make.

 

"The show is changing so much!!" - "The show would never ever change X"



#3 MyLittleFinger

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 01:40 AM

Nothing surprises me with the show changes since the start of S2...hell I'm still surprised Robb didn't marry Khaleesi and avenge that Sean Bean looking guy from the first season.



#4 Reasat Stark

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 03:24 AM

yeah..but the directors know what they are doing.And they change the plot for the best.

 

AT LEAST I HOPE SO...



#5 joluoto2

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 04:46 AM

Jon Snow has a lot to do already, why give him more?



#6 Ghost's Shadow

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 05:00 AM

Because he didn't have much to do yet and they like battles, there's opportunity for them in the North and so they'll do them?



#7 ~DarkHorse~

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 09:03 AM

I think having Jon attack Crasters Keep is a good plot alteration. 

 

Wanting Justice for his Lord Commanders death also adds irony to his later 'situation' and makes Jon a stronger character (more action= more favourable with the audience). This is Jon's Season to up the game and shine (like Tyrion in Season 2 and Dany in Season 3). 

 

It also adds to the support behind his election and sets him up as a worthy Leader. 


Edited by ~DarkHorse~, 03 March 2014 - 02:38 PM.


#8 Blutraven

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 09:11 AM

I think having Jon attack Crasters Keep is a good plot alteration. 

 

Wanting Justice for his Lord Commanders death also adds irony to his later 'situation' and makes Jon a stronger character (more action= more favourable with the audience). This is Jon's Season to up the game and shine (like Tyrion in Season 2 and Dany in Season 3). 

 

It also adds to the support behind his election and sets him as a worthy Leader. 

 

They might set it up it's also Jon figuratively avenging Robb as well. The Young Wolf and Old Bear were both killed in similar ways so they could easily tie them together.



#9 imaginepageant

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 11:50 AM

If they're making the big end-of-season event the attack(s) on the Wall, then Jon actually has too little to do this season, since literally nothing happens in his arc in the books between his return to Castle Black and the attacks on the Wall.  Even if they move the Lord Commander voting up, which I think is likely, there's still not enough story to keep Jon going through the whole season.  The Craster's Keep add-on subplot is just filler to kill time.



#10 Jon Snow the Omniscient

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 02:08 PM

I think having Jon attack Crasters Keep is a good plot alteration. 

 

Wanting Justice for his Lord Commanders death also adds irony to his later 'situation' and makes Jon a stronger character (more action= more favourable with the audience). This is Jon's Season to up the game and shine (like Tyrion in Season 2 and Dany in Season 3). 

 

It also adds to the support behind his election and sets him as a worthy Leader. 

More action does = more favorable with the audience (the Hound only got really popular with the Unsullied when he chopped a man in half), but I would prefer it if Jon just led a guerrilla force or something to go harass the Wildlings, instead of journeying past them to go fight the rogue crows. Jon wanting justice for Mormont is reasonable, just not this season. He has enough on his plate already.

 

That's a lot of assumptions, but my favorite is this

 

 

 

 

"The show is changing so much!!" - "The show would never ever change X"

That isn't an assumption, I have an actual reason. In the second trailer, we get a shot of archers wearing black cloaks on top of a tower in the midst of what seems like a battle (lots of fire and blood everywhere). So the Battle for Castle Black is definitely taking place at night in the show.


Edited by Jon Snow the Omniscient, 03 March 2014 - 02:09 PM.


#11 Seneti

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 02:57 PM

If they're making the big end-of-season event the attack(s) on the Wall, then Jon actually has too little to do this season, since literally nothing happens in his arc in the books between his return to Castle Black and the attacks on the Wall.  Even if they move the Lord Commander voting up, which I think is likely, there's still not enough story to keep Jon going through the whole season.  The Craster's Keep add-on subplot is just filler to kill time.

 

Agreed.

 

We know that episode 9 was directed by what's-his-name go-to-for-battles guy and that - as a consequence - there will be a huge battle in episode 9. That will most likely be the Wildling attack from the north and Stannis arriving to save the day. Now what exactly happens in between Jon returning to castle black (end of season 3) and the big battle (episode 9):

 

- the wildlings attack from the south (worth two episodes tops)

- the NW prepares for battle (worth one episode at best)

 

Now, Jon is one of the main characters of the show. You may be leaving him out for one episode or two, but not more. That still leaves us with three episodes in which Jon does nothing. You can't have your main character doing nothing for three episodes.

 

And Jon was raised by a man who valued honor above common sense, so him avenging Mormont seems like a truly awesome idea. Not to mention that everybody who took part in the mutiny at Craster's keep was not only a mutineer but a deserter as well and the punishment for desertion is death (even according to book canon). Jon and the others are doing their jobs.



#12 Ser Tahu

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 03:41 PM

"This sounds an awful lot like a battle speech, which might mean that Jon is in command when a particular battle takes place, which means Donal Noye won't be in command, which means that there probably won't be a Donal Noye, which means fire and blood"

Giving a battle speech doesn't necessarily mean that he is in command. And it didn't really feel like the 'pre-battle get everyone pumped' speech, either (based on the trailers that is going to Alisser). As for Donal Noye, the lack of casting news confirms that he has been cut. Given that he would require some time to establish his role in the Watch only for him to die within episodes, he really isn't a big loss as far as the show is concerned.

I think Jon's storyline will play out something like this:
They decide that the risk of the mutineers giving Mance valuable information is too high, and they must be dealt with. Some semi-bs reason is given for the Wildling assault from the south being delayed and Jon leads some men to deal with the mutineers. While he is gone Alliser and Janos arrive, and upon Jon's return he is arrested. We then get that situation before the battle. Given that the first 2-3 episodes of the season are likely to be light on Jon (and everyone else that isn't in King's Landing), I think that should be enough to carry him through to episode 7. 8 would then be the calm before the storm, and 9 would be the battle. It wouldn't really be overcrowded at all, in fact it seems about right.

The only real problems that I can see them facing is:
1) how to make the delayed Wildling assault believable
and 2) how to get around Alliser being there when it comes to Jon being told "The Wall is Yours"


In the end, like all the deviations D&D have made thus far, I'm sure that it will eventually line up with the books, it will just take a slightly different route to get there.

#13 Colonel Green

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 05:21 PM

I think Jon's storyline will play out something like this:
They decide that the risk of the mutineers giving Mance valuable information is too high, and they must be dealt with.

Where are you getting that?  The promo clips make the rationale for the mission pretty clear:  bringing justice to the mutineers.

 

- the wildlings attack from the south (worth two episodes tops)

From the spoilers of the filming it sounded like that was also going to be in episode 9.



#14 Arkash

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 06:20 PM

There is also the possibility that Thorne and Slynt accuse Jon of being a turncloak and that Jon decides to prove his loyalty by tracking the deserters and avenge Mormont. It could work storywise and show Jon as a capable leader.



#15 King Tommen

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 07:54 PM

This has been covered in other threads and has been well established for quite a while for those following casting and filming but just to lay it out again

 

1) No Donal Noye

 

2) There will be a giant attacking the tunnels underneath the Wall in E9 during the battle and there is a shot of Grenn (w/other nameless NW) on the other side of the door so it could be surmised that he will play the Donal Noye role in this particular fight (although that's in no way confirmed).

 

3) Aliser Thorne and Janos Slynt show up at some point later in the season and Aliser is shown rallying the troops for E9's battle.

 

4) Locke will show up at the Wall and join the NW but it's unclear as to why and how he will be used in the storyline outside of those details

 

5) The battles with the Wildlings from south of the Wall and Mance from beyond the Wall will take place concurrently (or at least very close together) and the entirety of E9 will occur at the Wall (it will be this season's Blackwater). This would logically lead to Stannis arriving at the climax of the episode.

 

6) Ygritte and Tormund appear to backtrack/regroup at the start of the season and are met by Styr and his Thenn reinforcements (there is at least one other Thenn who has a speaking role along with Styr).

 

7) Styr, Tormund, Ygritte and company attack Mole town (the shots in the trailer which are taking place during the day) and basically appear to lay waste to it.

 

8) There is a scene of Jon and Sam talking strategy where Sam appears to suggest that Jon could use Ygritte to turn on/convince the Wildlings to stop. Jon is more or less telling Sam that this ship has sailed.  This would suggest that Jon and the NW are aware the Wildling attack from the South is coming.

 

9) The big battles being delayed until E9 would require some further action for Jon and so this is presumably why the trip to Craster's was included (probably taking place mid-season). Grenn can be seen attacking Craster's with Jon's group which would mean that he (and Edd) make it back to Castle Black at the start of the season (or between seasons).  They along with Sam would be able to give Jon the news on what went down at Craster's and why it would be important to take out the remaining mutineers.

 

10) We don't know if they will include the LC election or not in S4 but if it does happen, it's probably in the finale.

 

How much "command" Jon will assume during the season is up for debate but Aliser's and Slynt's presence there would suggest there will be similar friction as there is in the books. Aliser rallying the troops before the battle would suggest that he is taking on some of the Castle Black defense during the battle at least.

 

There have also been suggestions from some leaked reports during filming that Bran and co might possibly be captured by the mutineers at Craster's at the start of the season and that Jon's mission there would inadvertently free them (causing another Jon/Bran near miss). There is however no evidence thusfar in any of the footage or trailers that this is the case. The only thing we really know about Bran's story this season is that he's going to be really into touching weirwoods and that both Brynden Bloodraven and a "Child of the Forest" have been cast.



#16 Konradsmith

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 08:12 PM

^If you look up "Game of Thrones leaked callsheet" it places the Craster's Keep business in ep 4. This matches with the actor playing Rast's CV which credits him being directed by Michelle MacLaren and an actress playing one of Craster's older wives is also credited as being in a MacLaren-directed ep. You can find that info through wicnet which has links to the CVs.



#17 Ser Tahu

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 08:59 PM

Where are you getting that?  The promo clips make the rationale for the mission pretty clear:  bringing justice to the mutineers.


That too. Why should an action be restricted to a single motive? Justice would be why they want to go to Craster's, but my speculation could be why they decide to go now instead of waiting until the Wildling threat has passed.

#18 oierem

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 03:50 AM

Regarding Jon-Ygritte, do you think they will share any scene this season? Given that they didn't kill her at the end of the previous season as a way to end the storyline in a tragic way, it seems safe to assume that they will meet again at some point this season, otherwise, Ygritte dying won't be as dramatic as it could be. Any thoughts?



#19 oierem

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 03:51 AM

^If you look up "Game of Thrones leaked callsheet" it places the Craster's Keep business in ep 4. This matches with the actor playing Rast's CV which credits him being directed by Michelle MacLaren and an actress playing one of Craster's older wives is also credited as being in a MacLaren-directed ep. You can find that info through wicnet which has links to the CVs.

 

And matches the title of the episode (Oathkeeper also refers to the NW and those who broke the oath at Craster's)



#20 King Zee

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 09:50 AM

This has been covered in other threads and has been well established for quite a while for those following casting and filming but just to lay it out again

 

 

4) Locke will show up at the Wall and join the NW but it's unclear as to why and how he will be used in the storyline outside of those details

 

 

 

 

just a thought. it it might be fun if Locke were on Jon's side this season. "F&*king Lannisters!"


Edited by King Zee, 04 March 2014 - 09:50 AM.