"The Dragon Has Three Heads, There Must Be One More" Who and What are the "3 heads?"

[Rill Redthorn]

My thinking is usually "Dany, Jon, Aegon" as the three heads -- the three young Targs with the most dragon blood. Dany is in charge, of course -- the "Head" as some of you are saying -- for several reasons:

1. She brought the dragons back (of course)

2. The "orignal" three heads were Aegon I, Rhaenys, Visenya, with Aegon in charge. Making the successor three-headed dragon Girl, Boy, Boy instead is a great counter-symmetry.

3. GRRM seems to be trying, successfully I think, to turn over the trope of the "Chosen One" to make it be a girl for a change. Seriously, how often has THAT happened in a medieval fantasy setting? In "Westmark" the lost heir was female, but the hero/POV character was still male. Can anyone come up with a medieval fantasy work where the "Chosen One" or lost heir was female and got to be among the POV characters?

I'll admit, though, that I'm swayed in my leanings here by really liking the image of Danaerys being in charge of the Dragon Flight trio with the two boys as her lieutenants. ("Jon go right, Aegon take the left, and I'm taking the point. DRACARYS!") And GRRM is in no way bound by anything *I* think is aesthetically amusing.

And my assessment of the likelihood of this actually happening is, of course, dependent on whether or not you actually need the Blood of the Dragon to bond with and ride a dragon, and what the minimum amount of "dragon blood" required is to get you that ticket to play. If it can be done by anyone who is clever and brave and takes the right approach (a la Nettles of TPaTQ, who might or might not have been a bastard Targ) then I would give a lot to see Tyrion on dragonback, although that may be a little too much of a romantic "wishes can come true" thing for GRRM to go for. If it weren't, I'd be rooting for Tyrion to be reunited with Tysha, tame a dragon, save the Kingdom, finally get the respect he deserves, and live happily to a ripe old age as Lord of Casterly Rock...but let's be serious here, because this is ASoIaF.

For that matter, the issue of whether or not Aegon gets a shot at a dragon may depend on whether he is: A. a Targ, B. a Blackfyre with enough "dragon blood" to pull it off even if he's not Rhaegar's kid, or C. some blonde-haired boy baby Illyrio picked up for cheap in the Volantene slave markets. But again, we don't actually know if real dragon blood is a requirement of if that's just something the Targs tell themselves so they have an excuse to go on marrying their siblings.

[oursisthefury69]

@Jonofthedead I believe the way you see it is exactly what Rhaegar was also lead to believe at one point. He clearly knew of both the "three heads" and Ptwp prophecys. Then we see he initially thought Aegon already was Tptwp, but still desperately sought out Lyanna because Elia was unable to birth another child, leading to the true birth of Tptwp. This leads me to believe he was lead to believe he needed to have a third child (which if you believe jon is tptwp, is valid) and this made him think all 3 of his kids would be the "three heads." Therefore I don't think he's wrong that there needs to be three people alongside tptwp, but was slightly mislead to believe they would all be his kids, in the same way he first assumed aegon to be tptwp

[Rill Redthorn]

I will plug in my pet theory about Dany, Jon and Stannis. If Aegon or anyone else is acceptable through the problematic Blackfyre line, and that too through the female line, then Stannis from the legitimate female Targaryen line should come closer. moreover, he is at the right place at the right time. Even Aemon's only argument against him is that the sword is wrong. The sword may be wrong but the person may still be right.

Okay, that is...kind of beautiful. You're right, Stannis is one-quarter legitimate Targ, so he's a candidate, isn't he?

As much as I like the romantic picture of the three Teen Targaryens on dragonback, I'm snickering a LOT at the image of Beautiful Young Dany on Drogon, Handsome Young Jon on Viserion (because he's white), and ....grumpy old bald teeth-grinding Stannis bringing up the rear on Rhaegal, complaining constantly. :lol: (I am aware Stannis is not actually that old by our standards, but he is in contrast to Dany and Jon.)

[lightbringer2525]

I always hear a lot about daenerys, jon, and aegon. Makes sense, I'm pretty sure it's all, but confirmed that Jon is really a Targaryen. Do you guys really think grrm is going to bring jon back though? Some foreshadowing about him dying and warging into ghost, and of course mellisandre could always pull a Beric with him. I've always been pretty curious in Tyrions connection to dragons though. He has always been interested in them, and the pre-released chapter of his kind of hints at it a little bit. I don't know. I am so obsessed with these books, and these theories. Winds of Winter needs to just get here already

[Rill Redthorn]

I always hear a lot about daenerys, jon, and aegon. Makes sense, I'm pretty sure it's all, but confirmed that Jon is really a Targaryen. Do you guys really think grrm is going to bring jon back though? Some foreshadowing about him dying and warging into ghost, and of course mellisandre could always pull a Beric with him. I've always been pretty curious in Tyrions connection to dragons though. He has always been interested in them, and the pre-released chapter of his kind of hints at it a little bit. I don't know. I am so obsessed with these books, and these theories. Winds of Winter needs to just get here already

I would say GRRM is 90% likely to bring Jon back. My favorite idea is that Bran is going to somehow help him to "hold on" and get back into his body, since Jon apparently has a strong gift (according to Mel and I think one of the other skinchangers as well) but he has made absolutely no effort to use it or practice with it. So some guidance from an outside source would help him stay alive -- even if only "sort of", like however Coldhands did it, something else Bran might have learned something about for all we know.

Anyway, Bran would want Jon to stay alive, and Bran seems to be becoming a nexus of info about the various ways to cheat death in Westeros, from becoming a wolf, to warging another human, to becoming a tree (plus whatever other life-extension tricks Bloodraven might know) to maybe getting a clue on how Coldhands managed it. If you throw Mel in there to repair Jon's physical body's, uh, stabbiness, then yes, I think the groundwork is very much laid for Jon to not actually get dead and vanish from the story.

[oursisthefury69]

@Lightbringer I heard theres some dragon symbolism at the end of his chapter from a friend, what exactly did you think hinted at something? There's dozens of odd connections between tyrion and dragons/targs throughout the books, and I definitely think its a possibility for him to somehow be the third head and possibly Aerys son, especially considering we know he's GRRMs favorite character and I'd expect big things from him in the coming books

[Good Guy Garlan]

Except Rhaenys, Aegon, Viserys and Rhaegar are dead, and can have no roles in the Long Night 2.0. So the three heads clearly refers to someone or something else, IMO.

So what if they're dead? Where does it "clearly" say that the 3 heads of the dragon will play a part in the Long Night 2.0 (assuming there will be a LN 2.0 in the first place)?

It can easily be a prophecy like: "AA/TPtwP will be a child of three" or something like that

[lightbringer2525]

I like these points and I agree that Bran is the 3rd head, I think the fact that "he will fly" not only refers to the ravens he wargs, but a dragon he will eventually warg.

What if Bloodraven is the 3rd dragon? He's a targ, can warg, who says he doesn't warg the dragon before he dies and then maybe Bran wargs after him.

Totally was thinking the same thing about the "But you will fly" line in Brans storyline. There has to be some significance there. Warging into ravens could just be the lead up to him becoming one of the dragons. Who the heck really knows though

[oursisthefury69]

@RillRedthorn I think he'll probably be revived somehow from a combination of the ice magic and fire magic we've seen thus far. I could see him warging into ghost while his body is broken, much like Bran did with Summer, until Melisandre is able to resurrect him in the same fashion Thoros did Beric.

[Rill Redthorn]

@Lightbringer I heard theres some dragon symbolism at the end of his chapter from a friend, what exactly did you think hinted at something? There's dozens of odd connections between tyrion and dragons/targs throughout the books, and I definitely think its a possibility for him to somehow be the third head and possibly Aerys son, especially considering we know he's GRRMs favorite character and I'd expect big things from him in the coming books

I would be entirely okay with Tyrion getting a dragon via smarts, pluck and guts if dragon blood is merely helpful rather than an absolute requirement (or heck, not even helpful....that may be garbage the Targs put around in order to keep randoms from trying to get in good with a dragon, which would undercut the royal monopoly on the beasts.) But not for a second do I think he is Aerys' kid. Here's why.

First, that's way too much of a cliche for GRRM to go for in my opnion -- "My abusive father isn't really my father! Hooray!", although I'm very unclear that trading Tywin for Aerys would represent a step up in the Good Father sweepstakes in any case.

Second, given Tywin's possessiveness of Joanna and his own pride and general competence, I think that if Aerys had raped Joanna, Tywin would have found some way to kill Aerys. (And the kingdom would have been better off. Talk about missed opportunities.) King or no king, Tywin is both vengeful enough AND smart and controlled enough to want to kill a king, to plan to kill a king, and to successfully kill a king, particularly given all the access and means he would have as King's Hand. The talk of "improprieties" on Aerys' part toward Joanna at the wedding was mostly likely that he took part in her bedding, groped her breasts, and made nasty cracks about reinstating the Droit du Seigneur. If it had gone as far as rape, things would have exploded in King's Landing long before they actually did.

So, no Aerys rape of Joanna. If Tyrion gets a dragon, it won't be because he's secretly dragonkin. It'll be because he read the all the old lore books*, figured out that "dragon blood" isn't required, put together what WAS required, and acted on it. In short, Tyrion will get a dragon (if possible) because he earns it, not by blood right.

(* I originally wrote this as "read all the books", and then I realized that it sounded like I was suggesting Tyrion was able to read ASoIaF...which I don't think is going to happen, hee hee!)

[lightbringer2525]

@oursisthefury Yeah, I've always been really curious about why he always insisted on Tyrion being so interested in dragon's. At the end of the chapter there is a white dragon piece on the cyvasse board that falls to his feet. Just more stuff to make my mind wander about it all. There has to be big plans for Tyrion. He has been through so much, I'm expecting a big comeback.

[Rill Redthorn]

Totally was thinking the same thing about the "But you will fly" line in Brans storyline. There has to be some significance there. Warging into ravens could just be the lead up to him becoming one of the dragons. Who the heck really knows though

While I see no obvious reason why dragons should be exempt from being warged, I find I don't really like the idea of this being a major plot point.

For one thing, if the dragons could be used via warging, there would be no need for riders at all. Just get three wargs (Bran, Jon....Arya?), have them warg the three dragons, and presto, instant airpower. Who needs riders? But the Targs being dragon *riders* -- and the whole drama with Dany finally managing to climb up on Drogon and get airborne -- seems to me to indicate we will be needing three dragon riders before the story is done.

The other thing is that I think Bran's talents in the eventual War for the Dawn would be wasted if he spent all his energy being a dragon. He's going to be needed to be the communication hub for the entire war -- TreeAndRaven.Net if you will -- so having him stuck "driving" a dragon instead of coordinating everything through the trees and animals would be a huge waste of his power potential in a tactical sense. I'm not saying he might not grab a dragon to control it briefly in an emergency, or heck, just for fun, but I think his purpose ought to be significantly more broad-ranging than just warging one critter, even a very powerful one.

[lightbringer2525]

@rillredthorn Yeah, I also agree he will most likely bring him back. He's just such a cold hearted fellow, I'm never quite sure with him. Bran helping him hold on would be great though. I like that idea. Bran will definitely know what has happened to him. Jon has not taken full advantage of his skinchanging abilities, and I think it's only a matter of time before it becomes extremely crucial to his storyline. It seems like he's been a little estranged to them. The happenings at the wall have me so curious. I really have no clue what's going to happen between the wildlings and the brothers after what happened

[oursisthefury69]

I think one of the better and overlooked points for tyrion being the third head and possibly a targ is the fact He, Dany, and Jon are the 3 main characters In " A Dance with Dragons" and the introduction does as much to imply they're the stories main focus

[lightbringer2525]

While I see no obvious reason why dragons should be exempt from being warged, I find I don't really like the idea of this being a major plot point.

For one thing, if the dragons could be used via warging, there would be no need for riders at all. Just get three wargs (Bran, Jon....Arya?), have them warg the three dragons, and presto, instant airpower. Who needs riders? But the Targs being dragon *riders* -- and the whole drama with Dany finally managing to climb up on Drogon and get airborne -- seems to me to indicate we will be needing three dragon riders before the story is done.

The other thing is that I think Bran's talents in the eventual War for the Dawn would be wasted if he spent all his energy being a dragon. He's going to be needed to be the communication hub for the entire war -- TreeAndRaven.Net if you will -- so having him stuck "driving" a dragon instead of coordinating everything through the trees and animals would be a huge waste of his power potential in a tactical sense. I'm not saying he might not grab a dragon to control it briefly in an emergency, or heck, just for fun, but I think his purpose ought to be significantly more broad-ranging than just warging one critter, even a very powerful one.

Very true. That would make the importance of a rider kind of meaningless, and there has been so much set up for that. Bran is going to be important to the storyline in a big way, but probably not by warging into a dragon. Tree and Raven is definitely his true calling. I wouldn't mind if he did it for a second though like you said! Probably just wishful thinking though because it just sounds like something that'd be cool to read.

[Rill Redthorn]

@rillredthorn Yeah, I also agree he will most likely bring him back. He's just such a cold hearted fellow, I'm never quite sure with him. Bran helping him hold on would be great though. I like that idea. Bran will definitely know what has happened to him. Jon has not taken full advantage of his skinchanging abilities, and I think it's only a matter of time before it becomes extremely crucial to his storyline. It seems like he's been a little estranged to them. The happenings at the wall have me so curious. I really have no clue what's going to happen between the wildlings and the brothers after what happened

Yeah, GRRM's brutal nature (as a writer at least!) is why I put the chance of Jon returning at only 90%. For pretty much any other author it would be a flat 100%, he's definitely not dead. But with GRRM...no guarantees. I just think that GRRM has put too much effort into building Jon's story, character, and backstory to sacrifice him now just to make a point about how he can kill anyone he likes at any time. (I mean, we know he can, he proved that already, he doesn't need to keep proving it :crying: )

Do you mean Jon is estranged from his siblings at this point? I wasn't sure exactly who you meant by "he" and "them." I would agree that Jon has been desperately trying not to think about his Stark sibs...much too painful right now, and he thinks they're all dead except Sansa who is captive. But Jon very much still cares, which is why the whole Fake Arya thing worked on him. And back in SoS Bran saw Jon through Summer's eyes and really wanted to contact him, but the Reeds insisted he shouldn't. I think the Bran/Jon bond has been shown to be strong enough that you could use it as a life preserver in this way without straining believability. (I know the Jon-Arya bond was shown to be stronger, but Jon and Bran were always very close too.)

[Rill Redthorn]

Very true. That would make the importance of a rider kind of meaningless, and there has been so much set up for that. Bran is going to be important to the storyline in a big way, but probably not by warging into a dragon. Tree and Raven is definitely his true calling. I wouldn't mind if he did it for a second though like you said! Probably just wishful thinking though because it just sounds like something that'd be cool to read.

Bran getting a view of the world through dragon's eyes would indeed be cool. I could support that. Just not that this is how Bran becomes one of the "heads of the dragon," because he's the Winged Wolf, and has a different destiny.

I have this image of Jon (reborn) trying to run the War For the Dawn Part Two and complaining that he can't get his messages through the mailer at TreeAndRaven.net because the Others are executing a DDOS attack on the brandon.stark.tree.westeros server....heh heh heh. I'm geeking out here. :drunk:

[Fire Eater]

So what if they're dead? Where does it "clearly" say that the 3 heads of the dragon will play a part in the Long Night 2.0 (assuming there will be a LN 2.0 in the first place)?

It can easily be a prophecy like: "AA/TPtwP will be a child of three" or something like that

If they have no role in the Long Night 2.0, then why are they mentioned in the prophecy in the first place?

[lightbringer2525]

^{@rillredthorn Exactly, you just cannot fully trust the guy. I know what you mean though. He has built Jon up so much, I really don't think he would just kill him like he did with Rob, and so on. Still pissed at Jon for not keeping Ghost at his side though. Those starks really need to keep those direwolves at hand!}

^{Woops, I wasn't clear on that point. I was referring to Jon being a little estranged to his powers. He still very much cares for his family. I would love for him to realize who's still alive, and who isn't in one way or another.}

[Lady Fevre Dream]

The three heads of the dragon was the original Aegon the Conquerer and his two sister-wives. The three heads will be dragon riders.

There is no guarantee all three dragon riders will be loyal to Daeny.

Oh, pardon the interruption, I'm not chiming in with a guess one way or the other (other than to say I do think there will be three dragonriders), but this leads me to a question about the three headed dragon of House Targaryen. When, exactly, was that sigil taken, anyone know? We know they came from Valyria, camped out on Dragonstone, but I didn't think Valyrians were known for sigils. So, I just realized, LOL, I'm curious.......when did the family adopt that as their official sigil? Thanks to anyone who can answer it.

TWOW spoiler

Or should I call it a siggle, LOL