Do people dislike Sansa because she's a woman?

[The Abominable SnowOther]

The popular girl looking past your acme and thick glasses to appreciate your wit and realise that, unlike those dumb jocks, you know how to treat a lady sounds romantic to me.

WoooooooW! :rolleyes: Now, whose being stereotypical. So all boys who fantasize have acme and glasses and yearn for the popular girl, psssh! what a load of rubbish

[greensleeves]

WoooooooW! :rolleyes: Now, whose being stereotypical. So all boys who fantasize have acme and glasses and yearn for the popular girl, psssh! what a load of rubbish

You and the point are in different time zones.

[ARYa_Nym]

WoooooooW! :rolleyes: Now, whose being stereotypical. So all boys who fantasize have acme and glasses and yearn for the popular girl, psssh! what a load of rubbish

This is one thing I liked about the inclusion of Quentyn Martell. He was plain but he would rather have the girl next door than Dany.

[The Abominable SnowOther]

Jeez, people, SOOOORRY! i was just tryin to lighten the mood around these parts. Its was a joke!

This is one thing I liked about the inclusion of Quentyn Martell. He was plain but he would rather have the girl next door than Dany.

agreed. Quents da man

[The Mother of The Others]

This never occurred to me before, but wasn't there a horrible brand of instant coffee called Sanka in the past? Sanka, Sansa, Sansa, Sanka. Maybe this is why the character leaves a bad taste in some people's mouths!

Or it's the shoehorning in of Jane Eyre dreams into a world that prominently features face biting?

[Bea Noleto]

I very much doubt that this is the only reason. I was highly sympathetic to Tyrion in the first three books, and I am still more sympathetic to him than a lot of fans seem to be after ADWD, but I would never in a million years think that Sansa "owed" him to spread her legs for him or fall for him or make him her BFF, because that's just idiotic and offensive. I wouldn't have thought it if it had been a character I don't find sympathetic (say, if he had felt insulted that Margaery doesn't want to have sex with him or make him her confidante).

I've never seen any male character criticized or hated because he isn't "rewarding" a female character with love or sex for being somewhat decent to him, or for not falling for a physically unattractive woman who's into him or who he has to marry for political reasons (I can't even imagine the situation in which a male character is forced to marry an ugly woman from a family who has been holding him captive and killing his family, and the fandom complains that he should give her a chance). Stannis was not literally forced to marry Selyse, nor did the Florents do anything awful to him, but nobody is complaining that he hasn't given her a chance or that he prefers not to do "his married duty" when he doesn't have to make children, while sharing a bed with a gorgeous red priestess. Some people do call Tyrion shallow - but that's because he actually thinks such things as "I don't want to know you, I just want to fuck you" in ADWD; nobody calls him shallow for not wanting to marry Lollys or for not returning Penny's feelings. And nobody thinks that he's obliged to hook up with Penny to make her feel desirable, while a bunch of people seem to think that 12-year old Sansa was obliged to enthusiastically lose her virginity to a man she was forced to marry so his family would be able to steal her family's lands after having them killed - because it's apparently her sacred duty to make Tyrion feel desirable, her own feelings and dreams and desires be damned. (And Penny genuinely has romantic feelings for Tyrion and likes him as a person, while Tyrion never was remotely in love with Sansa or interested in her a person beyond common decency.)

I can't think of a single fandom where there was a lot of fans hating on a male character for not returning a female character's feelings or for not being attracted to a physically unattractive woman. If you know any examples, please tell me.

Even in the Buffy fandom, where Buffy and Willow were always more popular than Xander, I've seen lots of Xander fans criticize Buffy for not returning Xander's romantic feelings for her, even though she was always treating him very nicely and trying not to hurt him, and complain about Buffy's "awful taste in men" for falling for (half-)reformed vampires with a 100+ year history of mass murder; but, even though Xander is criticized and hated by many for many things, I don't think that many people criticized him for not returning Willow's romantic feelings in seasons 1-2 (and he acted pretty insensitive about it a few times, the way Buffy never did with him) or hooking up with "Queen Bitch" Cordelia instead; and there aren't many people who criticize him for his taste in women and for hooking up and almost marrying a (half-)reformed former demon with a 1000 year history of mass murder.

Yeah. Saying that "it's not misogyny to dislike a female character!" is a Straw Man. Nobody is arguing that. But the problem is that some of the arguments really are ridiculous and sexist - because women are blamed for things that men are never blamed for. Such as actually choosing a partner according to their own desires, rather than out of "gratitude" or a reward for (moderately) "good behavior" for one's favorite character.

This list was posted by someone on Livejournal once - apparently it was first posted by an LJ user called penknife years ago, but it seems to sum up the behavior of many fandoms:

1) Any female character who is as capable and unusually talented as the male characters is a Mary Sue.

2) Any female character who is not as capable and unusually talented as the male characters is weak and uninteresting.

3) Any female character who develops new skills over time is a Mary Sue, no matter how she learned those skills or how strong her motivation to do so.

4) Any female character who has bad things happen to her is just trying to be the center of attention.

5) If she ever complains about those things, she's also whiny.

6) Any female character who pursues a male character who initially rejects her is either predatory or pathetic. (Any male character who pursues a female character who initially rejects him is either charming or a tragic woobie.)

7) Any female character who rejects a male character who is beloved by fans is cruel and heartless, whether or not she has any interest in him herself.

8) Any female character who lacks serious character flaws is too unrealistic to be interesting.

9) Any female character who has serious character flaws is unlikable because of them, even if beloved male characters have the same or equivalent flaws.

10) However, the majority of criticisms of her will ignore those flaws entirely in favor of calling her a slut or a whore.

11) Any female character who actually has multiple relationships in canon is a slut or a whore.

12) It's infinitely more important whether a female character is a slut or a whore than whether she commits actual crimes or kills people.

Stannis and Dany are a really good example.

When Dany crucifies slavers who had crucified children, she's evil and crazy. When Stannis burns people because he sees them as traitors (such as, for trying to negotiate with his enemies to make peace) or because they deserted the Night's Watch, he's OK

When Dany thinks that she's the rightful queen of Westeros because her father was a king, she's "entitled". When Stannis goes on and on about being the rightful king because his brother was a king, he's awesome and the rightful king who will save everyone.

When Dany frees the slaves, she's being the "white savior" who shouldn't be messing with another culture (which, curiously, is identified with the slavers, the powerful elite of that society - the slaves and former slaves certainly don't seem to like those "traditional cultural" things like getting raped or mutilated or dehumanized, and were very happy to be freed!), but when Stannis lets Melisandre burn weirdwood trees and force the wildlings to give up the Old Gods and accept the Lord of Light... that's OK, because he's the (white) savior and he's super-awesome.

When Dany refers to Robert as the "Usurper" and the Lannisters and the Starks as the "Usurper's dogs", she's stupid and crazy. When Stannis refers to everyone who doesn't support him as the King of Westeros or wants to have independent North as a "traitor" that he will never negotiate with, he's badass.

When Dany has the "They can live in my new world or die in their old one" line in the TV show (i.e. the trailer), she is crazy. (And that even though the same people who are using it as evidence of her 'madness' are always complaining about her alleged 'whitewashing' in the show.) When Stannis makes one of his many "my way or highway" statements in the books, or laments that all the high lords in Westeros don't have just one neck, he's badass and not crazy at all.

Dany is a hypocrite because.. uh, reasons? I don't know why she's supposed to be a hypocrite, but that's one of the common accusations against her. Stannis refers to Sansa as "Lady Lannister" (nice victim blaming, BTW) when he's trying to convince Jon to accept legimitization and Winterfell/is annoyed that Jon said no, and then goes to convince the mountain clans to join him by appealing to them to save The Ned's Little Girl...that's not hypocritical at all. But hey, I guess it's really not if he went to them and told them to save "Lady Bolton"? Somehow I don't think he did that... ;)

Like someone said before, "crazy" is the usual insult thrown at female characters. You could mount at least just as much "evidence" that Stannis is crazy as that Dany is crazy, but it's always Dany who is "crazy". (Actually, both of them are perfectly rational and not crazy at all.)

Wait, what?! When was Sansa cruel to Jeyne in any way? :huh: And "cruel" to Arya is, I guess, arguing with her a couple of times in King's Landing and saying nasty things to her. Sansa was never shown or implied to have been cruel to Arya in Winterfell. Oh, but she called her Arya Horseface and mocked her looks, right? Oh wait, no - that was Jeyne Poole. Oh, but she criticized Arya for her bad knitting, right? Nope - that was Septa Mordane. Sansa did think unfavorably about Arya, but the actual scenes in Winterfell show her being too "courteous" to make fun of her sister or criticize her openly, like Jeyne or Septa Mordane did. Sansa's bad behavior regarding Arya seems to only start in KL after Lady's death, and it's clearly different from her earlier behavior. And while Sansa is pretty unlikeable in those scenes, that's just an argument between the two of them - Sansa is not in a position of power or popularity, since there's no one there other than the two of them, Ned and the Septa, neither of whom are taking sides there or approving of her behavior.

This is just another example of people trying to shove the character into neat little boxes and stereotypes they feel they recognize them to be. Since Sansa is seen as the "stereotype of the popular cheerleader girls" who bully the less popular, she has to have bullied Arya, or even Jeyne (who actually did sort of 'bully' Arya), even though there's no evidence of her behaving that way in Winterfell. Arya felt bad because Sansa was favored and she was seen as the disappointment, but at no point does she think that Sansa was bullying her or insulting her at any point in Winterfell.

:lmao: :shocked: http://i.stack.imgur.com/jiFfM.jpg

I agree with most of it.

Except that Xander was not just insensitive at times with Willow. He activelly manipulated her, he put her aside when he was flirting with Buffy or Cordelia or some other girl and used her as a B plan if he had no one to go to the parties with. And when she found a boyfriend that really liked her, then he was attracted.

And I think Sansa was bullying Arya in Winterfell. Jeyne Poole was the one who called Arya horseface, but she did that in front of her sister, she did it with Sansa's consent and incentive. She wouldn't dare to bully the daughter of the high lord if she didn't know that she was protected. If Sansa wasn't having fun with that she would be more emphatic about it and Jeyne would have stopped.

[greensleeves]

And I think Sansa was bullying Arya in Winterfell. Jeyne Poole was the one who called Arya horseface, but she did that in front of her sister, she did it with Sansa's consent and incentive. She wouldn't dare to bully the daughter of the high lord if she didn't know that she was protected. If Sansa wasn't having fun with that she would be more emphatic about it and Jeyne would have stopped.

Sansa's memories include instances where Arya played tricks on Sansa (with their siblings help). I can't remember if the food throwing was just in the show or also in the books. Either way, it clearly wasn't a one-sided bullying dynamic so much as sibling rivalry/antagonism.

[Bea Noleto]

Arya doesn't lack empathy or compassion.I think she might even have more then Sansa.Remember the crying girl she saved, Mycah, Hot Pie and Gendry, Old Lady who gave her a dress?

Arya was much more compassionate than Sansa at the beginning (to say the least) but then she grew more cold and Sansa showed emphathy. People who like to call Arya sociopath like to forget how she was and do not reflect on how would they survive and how would they be emotionally if they were in her instead.

[ARYa_Nym]

There is a misconception that it was only Jeyne. Jeyne just admitted to making up the name.

To her sister and her sister’s friends and all the rest, she had just been Arya Horseface. ”

Theon used it as well and preferred to marry Sansa because she was the pretty one while Arya was horseface (the ugly one).

"Arya Horseface. Robb's younger sister, brown-haired, long-faced, skinny as a stick, always dirty. Sansa was the pretty one. He remembered a time when he thought that Lord Eddard Stark might marry him to Sansa and claim him for a son, but that had only been a child’s fancy. Arya, though…"

When talking to Jeyne as "Arya":

"Arya Underfoot. Your sister used to called you Arya Horseface." "It was me made up that name. Her face was long and horsey. Mine isn't. I was pretty."

Sansa's PoV:

.” Her long horsey face got that stubborn look that meant she was going to do something willful...All she wanted for things to be nice and pretty, the way they were in the songs. Why couldn’t Arya be sweet and delicate and kind, like Princess Myrcella? She would have liked to have a sister like that.

One day she came back grinning her horsey grin, her hair all tangled and her clothes covered in mud, clutching a raggedy bunch of purple and green flowers for Father

“It won’t be so bad, Sansa…It will be an adventure, and then we’ll be with Bran and Robb again, and Old Nan and Hodor and the rest…”Hodor! Sansa yelled. “You ought to marry Hodor, you’re just like him, stupid and hairy and ugly!”

"Sansa had once dreamt of having a sister like Margaery; beautiful and gentle, with all the world's graces at her command. Arya had been entirely unsatisfactory as sisters went..."

It wasn't only Jeyne. It was a lot of people.

[Darksnider05]

Arya was much more compassionate than Sansa at the beginning (to say the least) but then she grew more cold and Sansa showed emphathy. People who like to call Arya sociopath like to forget how she was and do not reflect on how would they survive and how would they be emotionally if they were in her instead.

Arya's empathy hasn't gone anywhere and she's still compassionate. If anything it's only increased because of how much suffering she's witnessed.

Being an empathetic person and not being able to help suffering people would take a toll on such a person.

A quest though to gain a skill set to alleviate this lack of power has been set upon.

[ARYa_Nym]

Arya was much more compassionate than Sansa at the beginning (to say the least) but then she grew more cold and Sansa showed emphathy. People who like to call Arya sociopath like to forget how she was and do not reflect on how would they survive and how would they be emotionally if they were in her instead.

Personally, on the Anti-Social Personality Disorder I believe that it is genetic/biological not environmental so she would have already had the callous traits that she inherited from one of her parents. You can't grow a conscience which is why this personality disorder is for the most part incurable and they have neurological differences so I believe it was there from the start. However, detractors say that GRRM may not know that and some on here say oh well it can come about through trauma or a head injury but I don't personally think so. ETA: I should add that I do believe that there are environmental factors in how it develops but the core traits were there from birth imo.

Now some say sociopathy is environmental but they also that they are unlikely to kill and the psychopath is the one that is more dangerous and more likely to kill. Most people who have ASPD don't kill though and it's my understanding that in modern society they don't use the terms psychopathy or sociopathy anymore but you know internet pop psychology. Plus, the fandom also uses it interchangeably with being psychotic which means something else. Most psychopaths are not psychotic as well. That's rare.

[Pod The Impaler]

There is a misconception that it was only Jeyne. Jeyne just admitted to making up the name.

* snip*

It wasn't only Jeyne. It was a lot of people.

Yeah, the evidence is pretty strong that back in Winterfell, pre-AGOT, Sansa was the top girl, the social alpha female, who led a pack of friends and they put down Arya frequently basically to gain favour with Sansa. Arya was the outcast, and if you notice, she got on well with her brothers, and with the other Winterfell folks, but had not friends of her own, her own age.

[Bea Noleto]

Yes, she called Jon her half-brother, which he was, as far as she knew - what a terrible person.

Clearly calling the special snowflake "half-brother" is way worse than murdering multiple people.

Most of Arya's killings were plenty justified. The only one that had no good reason by her point of view was that guy who didn't pay the slave ensurance.

And Sansa being the only one who made a point of calling him that is significant.

[greensleeves]

Yeah, the evidence is pretty strong that back in Winterfell, pre-AGOT, Sansa was the top girl, the social alpha female, who led a pack of friends and they put down Arya frequently basically to gain favour with Sansa. Arya was the outcast, and if you notice, she got on well with her brothers, and with the other Winterfell folks, but had not friends of her own, her own age.

Sansa's memories include instances where Arya played tricks on Sansa (with their siblings help). I can't remember if the food throwing was just in the show or also in the books. Either way, it clearly wasn't a one-sided bullying dynamic so much as sibling rivalry/antagonism.

Also, in an extremely patriarchal society how valuable is it to be the top among females v. popular with the guys?

[ARYa_Nym]

Yeah, the evidence is pretty strong that back in Winterfell, pre-AGOT, Sansa was the top girl, the social alpha female, who led a pack of friends and they put down Arya frequently basically to gain favour with Sansa. Arya was the outcast, and if you notice, she got on well with her brothers, and with the other Winterfell folks, but had not friends of her own, her own age.

Yeah, because Mycah was a relatively recent friend. We hear about her hanging out with all types of people but none of them are named. I don't think she had any close friends. Who was her best friend? We aren't given one. It may be that she was only close to Jon and Bran.

[Pod The Impaler]

Also, in an extremely patriarchal society how valuable is it to be the top among females v. popular with the guys?

Well, in Sansa's defense (?) she excelled at all the typical "womanly" arts, and for her, it was extremely important to personally embody these female attributes.

I said before (elsewhere) that if being a proper highborn lady was an Olympic sport, she would be a gold medallist. However, this seems to be primarily a southron definition of what is ladylike.

[ARYa_Nym]

Well, in Sansa's defense (?) she excelled at all the typical "womanly" arts, and for her, it was extremely important to personally embody these female attributes.

I said before (elsewhere) that if being a proper highborn lady was an Olympic sport, she would be a gold medallist. However, this seems to be primarily a southron definition of what is ladylike.

Yes, I would argue for that it mattered. She would be on track to be successful in life whereas Arya might be sent to the Silent Sisters which is why Ned and Catelyn were concerned.

ETA: She ended up caring for the dead anyway though at the HoB&W.

[Pablius]

I don`t like Sansa mainly because she is a selfish awful person...the fact that she is also somewhat slow at understanding everything around her doesn`t help...but that`s her "job" I guess, being an unreliable observer in KL for three and a half novels, as a narrative device it`s interesting in it`s own

Now she is learning to be an effective selfish awful person from the master, I think it`s going to be fun to read about that, I`m hoping she embrace it, will see...It won`t make me like her any better as a "person" probably, but it is a welcome change, being the punching bag of the Lannister ran it`s course

[Woman of War]

And it is equally possible to like Sansa for sexist reasons:

Always when people praise her for being "feminine", described as not martial, as liking beauty and her courtesies, using empathy as approach to people - then I could detect reverse sexism if I wanted to throw the sexism criterion around.

As if women who are not "feminine" enough cannot by rights claim to be female, as if they were the wrong kind of female, those who accept male norms by using so-called male methods. Woman who fight directly can therefore not own those genuine feminine qualities of courtesy, pity and empathy and have no sense for beauty.

Where is the highly political question: what is "feminine" and should that term not be completely banned from the debate for being useless?

I am exaggerating of course but I see that approach in some who declare Sansa as being the better feminist icon, once again reducing women - and men - to stereotypes.

Concerning the sense for beauty: it was Arya who found thirty eight different unknown flowers beside the road while Sansa preferred to travel inside.

[Alaynsa Starne]

I like Sansa's traditionally feminine characteristics because it offers diversity to the cast of women in the series. There are plenty of martial women, such as Brienne, Ygritte, Dacey, Arya, Asha, Meera, Pretty Meris, etc. and plenty of women who exert political power, such as Cersei, Dany, Olenna, Margaery, etc. and women who are traditionally feminine such as Catelyn, Sansa, and Jeyne Westerling. I think it's great that women with all sorts of different interests and passions and personalities are represented. Being someone who is romantic and idealistic, I think it's great that Sansa exists and it's awesome that in a series that's focused on war and politics, people who are interested in the domestic sphere aren't totally ignored or marginalized. I don't really think that appreciating Sansa for those qualities or the unique perspective they bring to ASOIAF is reverse sexism, though.