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Reasons Roose Bolton is not so hated in the north afterall.


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#1 sanzor

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 02:49 PM

Although Roose Bolton betrayed  the northmen...i believe his involvement in the RW and the other betrayals aren't very clear in the minds of the northmen(the houses that were very loyal to Stark: Glover,Umber,Mormont,Flint,Manderly) and no one can practically testify against him,and if his Ramsay would die and the Frey too i see him returning to the Dreadfort and not being brought justice upon him by the Stark loyalists(GNC).

 

I will pinpoint moments of betrayal and possible people that could inflame the spirits of the mentioned houses above:

 

1.So first he betrays Robett Glover...sending him to Duskendale.I dont think that it seems such a clear betrayal to send your men to their peril,it can easily be taken as stupidity,bad battle commander.

 

2.The men that he left behind to their peril at the Battle of the Ruby Ford -Wylis is caught and we all know how sane he is now,there isnt any other notable lord to get captured or escape to testify against Bolton

 

3.The most interesting part -The Red Wedding

 

If you read it you will see that the most of the massacre was done by Frey men.Catelyn drops to the floor from a quarrel and then sees "northmen with furs"  coming in and decapitating the SmallJon.The rest of the important casualties(Dacey,Robin Flint,Wendel are done by the Frey).

Only at the end of the wedding after the Greatjon is taken and Smalljon is dead Catelyn sees the man in pink sending his regards...

 

Now the captives:

Edmure-doesnt know who did what except of Frey,still prisoner.

Marq Piper-Might be but hes a hostage so he couldnt have told the involvement of Roose(we dont even know if he wasnt taken before Roose appeared).

GreatJon-drunk at the wedding  and captive and the moment so he cant tell his story.

Patrek Mallister-captive at Seagard(i suppose he cant send ravens if hes a captive).

 

I dont think LSH communicates via ravens with GNC (or the houses mentioned at the begining) or any other message,same would go with the other Houses of the Riverlands...

 

So what i want to prove is that Roose Bolton is almost safe even if there would be a Stark restoration.He cant be accused of his bastard deeds (Wex pinpointing Ramsay for the sack of WF in front of Wyman+Robett),or the Lady Hornwood incident.

I saw alot of posts that would see Roose dead when and if Starks come back...but i dont see any House that can effectively find his "traitor stains".

 

I dont say he isnt feared by the northmen for coming up with the Freys but now he has the most powerful house of the north so Warden of the North doesnt seem so strange,so troublesome for them.

 

I believe he played his part very good and he would fall like a cat on his legs even if Starks come back.The same thing i cannot say for Ramsay.But all in all i believe Roose is fine..

 

What do you think?


Edited by sanzor, 07 May 2014 - 02:50 PM.


#2 Mad Monkey

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 02:53 PM

I think you are right, but Roose is not as safe as he imagines. While people don't know that he was responsible for the Red Wedding for a fact (in terms of eyewitness or video footage), they do know that he holds the North with the permission of the Lannisters and is backed by the Freys. That's pretty damning by itself even if he was wholly innocent of the RW -- it's kind of like when Lady Stoneheart caught Brienne with Tyrion's squire, Tommen's warrant, and Jaime's sword. Cloaking yourself in the trappings of your enemies so thoroughly is suspicious in and of itself even if your motives are pure and noble.

 

 

If the northmen had any other options, I think they would enjoy tying him down and picking out his heart.



#3 AryaNymeriaVisenya

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 02:57 PM

You've fallen for Roose's plan however I think he underestimates the Northerners. Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, thrice shame on you.

 

He sends Robb's forces on stupid endeavours that gets a chunk of them massacred

He and his almost entire army returns to the North but all the other house armies are destroyed

He marrys his bastard to an Arya Wyman likely knows to be fake. Arya visited White Harbour, Ned visited his bannermen, he took his children with him.

 

Why would he come with a backing of Frey soldiers and the support of the crown if he was a loyal subject of Robb Stark?


Edited by AryaNymeriaVisenya, 07 May 2014 - 02:58 PM.


#4 Mourneblade

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:02 PM

You've fallen for Roose's plan however I think he underestimates the Northerners. Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, thrice shame on you.

 

He sends Robb's forces on stupid endeavours that gets a chunk of them massacred

He and his almost entire army returns to the North but all the other house armies are destroyed

He marrys his bastard to an Arya Wyman likely knows to be fake. Arya visited White Harbour, Ned visited his bannermen, he took his children with him.

 

Why would he come with a backing of Frey soldiers and the support of the crown if he was a loyal subject of Robb Stark?

 

I do not think Roose underestimates anyone. It has taken an act of insane whether and Jon Snow convincing Stannis to not march on the Dredfort for Roose to be in the danger he currently is in.



#5 sanzor

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:03 PM

You've fallen for Roose's plan however I think he underestimates the Northerners. Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, thrice shame on you.

 

He sends Robb's forces on stupid endeavours that gets a chunk of them massacred

He and his almost entire army returns to the North but all the other house armies are destroyed

He marrys his bastard to an Arya Wyman likely knows to be fake. Arya visited White Harbour, Ned visited his bannermen, he took his children with him.

 

Why would he come with a backing of Frey soldiers and the support of the crown if he was a loyal subject of Robb Stark?

I didnt say  he is guiltless..but i dont think the Northmen will see him as the great Evil that he is after all things are dealt with.Manderly at the moment  hates Freys for RW(particularly because they got all the blame for not respecting guest rights) and Ramsay for lady Hornwood.I want to say that he could be pardoned .



#6 AryaNymeriaVisenya

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:03 PM

 

I do not think Roose underestimates anyone. It has taken an act of insane whether and Jon Snow convincing Stannis to not march on the Dredfort for Roose to be in the danger he currently is in.

 

Roose was always in danger. He was kept safe by the northern hostages



#7 Mourneblade

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:05 PM

I didnt say  he is guiltless..but i dont think the Northmen will see him as the great Evil that he is after all things are dealt with.Manderly at the moment  hates Freys for RW(particularly because they got all the blame for not respecting guest rights) and Ramsay for lady Hornwood.I want to say that he could be pardoned .

 

Just like with fArya, the suspect, but they do not know. Big difference, and would have given Roose plenty of time to sort them out had there been no Stannis invasion of the North.



#8 sanzor

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:06 PM

 

Roose was always in danger. He was kept safe by the northern hostages

At the moment he has Whoresbane near him,which i dont think hates Bolton too much.Lady Dustin points out that if the Freys didnt held Greatjon captive he would take their entrails out..again no reference to resentiments for Roose.Only after Greatjon will be released and they will learn about the death of Smalljon they will move against Roose.



#9 AryaNymeriaVisenya

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:10 PM

 

Just like with fArya, the suspect, but they do not know. Big difference, and would have given Roose plenty of time to sort them out had there been no Stannis invasion of the North.

 

How do you know? We don't know what is going through their heads. All we have is the information that Ned let his children be known to his bannermen and the bannermen to his children. See also, The Royces. Not sworn to the North but who stayed at Winterfell and likely know about Sansa. The drop of this info is important. Its not an expository info dump.



#10 Mulled Wino

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:10 PM

Although Roose Bolton betrayed  the northmen...i believe his involvement in the RW and the other betrayals aren't very clear in the minds of the northmen(the houses that were very loyal to Stark: Glover,Umber,Mormont,Flint,Manderly) and no one can practically testify against him,and if his Ramsay would die and the Frey too i see him returning to the Dreadfort and not being brought justice upon him by the Stark loyalists(GNC).

 

I will pinpoint moments of betrayal and possible people that could inflame the spirits of the mentioned houses above:

 

1.So first he betrays Robett Glover...sending him to Duskendale.I dont think that it seems such a clear betrayal to send your men to their peril,it can easily be taken as stupidity,bad battle commander.

 

2.The men that he left behind to their peril at the Battle of the Ruby Ford -Wylis is caught and we all know how sane he is now,there isnt any other notable lord to get captured or escape to testify against Bolton

 

3.The most interesting part -The Red Wedding

 

If you read it you will see that the most of the massacre was done by Frey men.Catelyn drops to the floor from a quarrel and then sees "northmen with furs"  coming in and decapitating the SmallJon.The rest of the important casualties(Dacey,Robin Flint,Wendel are done by the Frey).

Only at the end of the wedding after the Greatjon is taken and Smalljon is dead Catelyn sees the man in pink sending his regards...

 

Now the captives:

Edmure-doesnt know who did what except of Frey,still prisoner.

Marq Piper-Might be but hes a hostage so he couldnt have told the involvement of Roose(we dont even know if he wasnt taken before Roose appeared).

GreatJon-drunk at the wedding  and captive and the moment so he cant tell his story.

Patrek Mallister-captive at Seagard(i suppose he cant send ravens if hes a captive).

 

I dont think LSH communicates via ravens with GNC (or the houses mentioned at the begining) or any other message,same would go with the other Houses of the Riverlands...

 

So what i want to prove is that Roose Bolton is almost safe even if there would be a Stark restoration.He cant be accused of his bastard deeds (Wex pinpointing Ramsay for the sack of WF in front of Wyman+Robett),or the Lady Hornwood incident.

I saw alot of posts that would see Roose dead when and if Starks come back...but i dont see any House that can effectively find his "traitor stains".

 

I dont say he isnt feared by the northmen for coming up with the Freys but now he has the most powerful house of the north so Warden of the North doesnt seem so strange,so troublesome for them.

 

I believe he played his part very good and he would fall like a cat on his legs even if Starks come back.The same thing i cannot say for Ramsay.But all in all i believe Roose is fine..

 

What do you think?

1-2) Problem here is that in hindsight, it's obvious.  Robett and Tallhart pass by HH to go to Duskendale and somehow Roose doesn't know anything?  Then he proceeds to lose all his remaining Cerwyn and Tallhart men on the way to HH and left the remaining ones back to guard the Ruby Ford.  Now the only people privy to that convo I think that are still alive are the Greatjohn, Galbert, and Maege but still.  Word is bound to get out.  Plus it's not all that hard to deduce.

 

 

The rest- Um, he's the only Lord with any significant forces left and they are marching with the Freys'.  I have a feeling there are some stragglers out there as well.  Possibly hooking up with Stoneheart and with other northern forces.



#11 JonCon's Red Beard

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:13 PM

As I see it, the only reason Roose was "safe" was because the Northern Houses were recovering from the Red Wedding, after they lost both men and members of their family (who are now hostages). I suppose that even after Roose returned North, many of the information about the Red Wedding was not conclusive and absolute, and many Northern families didn't know how to act about it.

 

One they knew that there was a Frey involvement, that Tywin Lannister "supported" them, and now Bolton returned with Frey men and a Royal approval, they connected the dots. Still, they first needed to be sure about the situation of their own people before strike or even consider it. Now, they can finally do anything about it


Edited by JonCon's Red Beard, 07 May 2014 - 03:14 PM.


#12 Mulled Wino

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:13 PM

Additionally, the fact he hasn't cut Ramsey's heart out could work as a strike against him.  They know what he did to Hornwood and word is out about what he did at Winterfell.   Very tough to act dumb at this point if presented with the evidence that he knows nothing with all the other circumstantial evidence floating around.



#13 sanzor

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:14 PM

 

How do you know? We don't know what is going through their heads. All we have is the information that Ned let his children be known to his bannermen and the bannermen to his children. See also, The Royces. Not sworn to the North but who stayed at Winterfell and likely know about Sansa. The drop of this info is important. Its not an expository info dump.

 

Perhaps i should've changed the title of the thread if i am thinking about it.Of course you are right he cant be seen as unguilty , but the children swap is of little interest for vengeance i believe at this moment.The Red Wedding ..that is why i believe 80% of them would  want revenge.And i ask you  what do you believe goes in the northmen minds about Roose ,and how do you think they want him :dead,captive,taken Dreadfort from..etc?



#14 Alia Atreides

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:16 PM

I doubt that in the Theon's next to last chapter everything was hitting the fan, I remember the quote of Theon for the first time ever hearing Roose raise his voice after they found one of the Walder Cousins dead and Manderly getting stabbed. So to say he is not hated or above suspicion isn't quite true. They simply yet do not have enough proof while perhaps not hated as Catelyn told Robb that Roose might of been his Father's bannerman he was never trusted. I think that still holds true and being pardoned? Not by the North the North remembers. 



#15 FerociousVeldtRoarer

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:17 PM

As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue.


Yep. Doesn't sound as if anybody is holding a grudge, no ser.

#16 Mulled Wino

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:20 PM

Yep. Doesn't sound as if anybody is holding a grudge, no ser.

lmao, forgot about that



#17 sanzor

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:22 PM

Additionally, the fact he hasn't cut Ramsey's heart out could work as a strike against him.  They know what he did to Hornwood and word is out about what he did at Winterfell.   Very tough to act dumb at this point if presented with the evidence that he knows nothing with all the other circumstantial evidence floating around.

 

Well truth be told i as a reader dont even know how the dad-son relationship and messages worked the days from  the Hornwood incident(remember  -Rodrik Cassel says "White Harbor knights are fighting dreadfort men in the woods"-who gave the order?) till the burning of WF.I as one didnt even figured it out till now why did the Dreadfort garrison follow Ramsay (i know he had some gold but it cant be only that to go against Ser Rodrick's forces that outnumbered them at least 2 to 1),as they shouldve obeyed only  Roose.I dont think he anticipated anything from Ramsay...nor did they communicate.The Hornwood thing cant be put on Roose.



#18 Mad Monkey

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:24 PM

 

Just like with fArya, the suspect, but they do not know. Big difference, and would have given Roose plenty of time to sort them out had there been no Stannis invasion of the North.

 

The fArya thing is a horrifying mistake in its own right.

 

If the northmen believe that Arya is real, then they have had to listen to "valiant Ned's darling little girl" sobbing and suffering under Ramsay's sexual sadism every night for, what, a month? A year?

 

If they know that she isn't real, then their long-term plan to hold the North is doomed.


Edited by Mad Monkey, 07 May 2014 - 03:25 PM.


#19 CajunSaint

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:25 PM

That is until Lady Stoneheart gets her hands on him....



#20 Mourneblade

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 03:30 PM

 

The fArya thing is a horrifying mistake in its own right.

 

If the northmen believe that Arya is real, then they have had to listen to "valiant Ned's darling little girl" sobbing and suffering under Ramsay's sexual sadism every night for, what, a month? A year?

 

If they know that she isn't real, then their long-term plan to hold the North is doomed.

 

You miss the point. Its not a long term plan... Tywin (at the time) had Sansa.... this was a short term plan to legitimize Ramsey, and their hold until Roose could decide who needed replacing. It was a cover to gather the remaining northern lords to feel them out.

 

This ruse could never work long term, and Roose knows it, but Roose also knows that Tywin was going to name Tyrion Warden of the North once Sansa had a male heir.


Edited by Mourneblade, 07 May 2014 - 03:32 PM.